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Old 2018-05-28, 04:16   Link #81
Klashikari
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Now this is the kind of content I was expecting from an anime format, and it definitely makes sense for Okarin to explore the world a little bit before "waking up" from this dream.

I will admit I'm a bit afraid of the changes too though: the original scene was a very powerful sucker punch with Okarin's plight and Kurisu's sincere feelings right there. Prolonging that scene into a full episodes with other characters to boot might lessen the impact or "dilute" the emotions, while potentially diminishing the intimacy between Okarin and Kurisu. So it is really up to the script and the direction to make up for those potential risks. Still definitely intrigued.

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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
If they can do this, I expect that anime might spend more time in "future" part in PR route, maybe to explain something like how can okabe timeleap through the time he was captured. (They can even give a hint of who brainwashed Kagari while they are at it.)
We never know how long Okarin was tortured by Stratfo nor how long it took Walkure to save him. Considering it was still within the upgraded time leap period, if we assume he was captured for less than 2 weeks (breaking someone mind could be as fast as few hours depending of the methods, and that's the future to boot), then it is possible.
The more delicate matter with the crazy number of time leap was the LHC though. Considering the state of the world, it is hard to believe that SERN HQ wasn't raided by the nations at war since they would definitely need the LHC for the kerr black hole (unless they build their own particle accelerator, but that kind of stuff take ages and toncrap of money so it isn't realistic when time is essence in that race). This means that every time Okarin wakes up and contact Walkure for the next time leap (since the time leap machine is in the HQ and not alonside Okarin's body), Daru has to hack SERN's LHC, so SERN keeping control on their LHC for so many years during war time is a bit surprising. Not far fetched, but really debatable since Suzuha stated the war was initiated by Russia against EU. Unless SERN cooperated for some reason, which is within the possibility. Need more info.

That and I really hope they don't time skip Okarin's time leaping hell. I was expecting few short scenes describing the different "era" of his leaping and showing shortly how horrible it was since he said himself that he nearly gave up multiple times during that advent. Suffice to say, I was a bit disappointed the 3000 time leaps period was plainly summerized by 2-3 lines tops.
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Old 2018-05-30, 11:53   Link #82
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So episode 8 was way more different than I expected, and while it was nice in term of tones, it brought a lot of issues for the plot.

-Kurisu's D-Mail isn't the Amadeus leak whatsoever. Instead, she made herself hesitate right before entering the lab when Okarin was conducting the first D-mail deletion from ECHELON database.
This is probably the biggest change out of there, which is quite a huge problem because this implies that Kurisu somehow made Okarin falter at that moment.
But then, how come Okarin landed in the alpha world line to begin with? This is where the inconsistency is quite large because we know it was SERN who provoked that shift, yet the way how Kurisu fixed it means she must be aware her own action lead to this, which is conflicting with that fact.

-Following this issue, Amadeus shouldn't be leaked as consequence of this D-mail, meaning that all the events with Kagari's memories being tampered by Stratfo shouldn't occur.
This means that, unless they make other drastic changes, RMG and PR are not possible since they are the direct consequence shifts of Antinomic Dual.

My only explanation is that they are going for TA, which in turn, will lead to Amadeus Kurisu using a D-mail to leak about herself. That or they are jumping to V&A for some weird reason.

It is interesting to note that the divergence meter numbers don't match any of the VN routes.
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Old 2018-05-30, 12:08   Link #83
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The number is 1.097302. This is the first time they clearly show the number in anime (?)

Well, If they go with original world line, they will have a lot more freedom to change, add and/or combine events from different world lines in VN together as long as it won't contradict each other. It won't be faithful to the VN, yes but as long as it work...
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Old 2018-05-30, 12:09   Link #84
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Maybe they intend to retell the game's events in their own way?

Did something like this happen with the first story?
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Old 2018-05-30, 12:27   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
The number is 1.097302. This is the first time they clearly show the number in anime (?)

Well, If they go with original world line, they will have a lot more freedom to change, add and/or combine events from different world lines in VN together as long as it won't contradict each other. It won't be faithful to the VN, yes but as long as it work...
I'm fine with the freedom as well as long it is consistent, but I'm really afraid of what they are trying to do.
If anything, Kurisu's way to fix the world line is actually "less far fetched" because she know about the switch due to Daru cracking ECHELON.

However, I really hope they will explain how Okarin landed in the Alpha world line, since the cause in the VN doesn't work in the anime as result.
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Originally Posted by xrick View Post
Maybe they intend to retell the game's events in their own way?

Did something like this happen with the first story?
They did some small alterations for the characters and plots. The most noticeable plot changes was Moeka's "route" with Braun actually killing her before committing suicide.
Normally, Braun simply committed suicide in attempt to protect Moeka whom he considers as his second daughter. Only he knows her identity among the rounders, so if he dies, both Nae and Moeka should be spared (hence why a lot of people aren't sure why Moeka was killed by Braun in the anime).

However, as result, Nae became psychotic, enrolled in SERN, tortured Okarin in 2025 and then time leaped 3000 times so she could kill Moeka.
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Old 2018-05-30, 13:06   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
So episode 8 was way more different than I expected, and while it was nice in term of tones, it brought a lot of issues for the plot.

-Kurisu's D-Mail isn't the Amadeus leak whatsoever. Instead, she made herself hesitate right before entering the lab when Okarin was conducting the first D-mail deletion from ECHELON database.
This is probably the biggest change out of there, which is quite a huge problem because this implies that Kurisu somehow made Okarin falter at that moment.
But then, how come Okarin landed in the alpha world line to begin with? This is where the inconsistency is quite large because we know it was SERN who provoked that shift, yet the way how Kurisu fixed it means she must be aware her own action lead to this, which is conflicting with that fact.

-Following this issue, Amadeus shouldn't be leaked as consequence of this D-mail, meaning that all the events with Kagari's memories being tampered by Stratfo shouldn't occur.
This means that, unless they make other drastic changes, RMG and PR are not possible since they are the direct consequence shifts of Antinomic Dual.

My only explanation is that they are going for TA, which in turn, will lead to Amadeus Kurisu using a D-mail to leak about herself. That or they are jumping to V&A for some weird reason.

It is interesting to note that the divergence meter numbers don't match any of the VN routes.
I assume that Kurisu was able to tell Okabe that she loved him, so Okabe hesitated. He is still hesitating, after all.

Maybe they will jump to Pandora Box now.

I'll just forget about the VN and enjoy the anime at this point. But I'm sure they will do both PR and VA endings.
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Old 2018-05-30, 14:02   Link #87
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Ah, they probably gave Fubuki screen time in Alpha world line so that they can make her 'dreams' about it in Beta world line.

Good move White Fox.
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Old 2018-05-30, 14:26   Link #88
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Quote:
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I assume that Kurisu was able to tell Okabe that she loved him, so Okabe hesitated. He is still hesitating, after all.
I have no problem with that. If anything, the Alpha => Beta shift felt a little more natural and ties with the anime since at least Kurisu has a good grasp this kind of thing changed Okarin's decision, whereas in the VN, her figuring out about SERN stealing data from Amadeus required a lot of assumptions.
The real problem is how Kurisu could somehow arrive at the lab earlier in that alpha world line after SERN's intervention. This "could" be the butterfly effect in this case, but I'm not sure why they felt it was necessary.

By the way, I think that Kurisu telling Okarin not to interact with Amadeus actually enforces the probability Okarin is stuck in the stray sheep branch, since he doesn't interact with Amadeus unless it is really necessary, contrary to X day protocol.
I think it would make more sense to cover TA first, which will shed light on the concept and issues with AI, what Moeka is doing (which would explain to the anime viewers why there was a Beta -> Alpha shift with the rounders lurking around Amadeus) and have Maho's development.
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Old 2018-05-30, 14:38   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I think it would make more sense to cover TA first, which will shed light on the concept and issues with AI, what Moeka is doing (which would explain to the anime viewers why there was a Beta -> Alpha shift with the rounders lurking around Amadeus) and have Maho's development.
I mean they could make a detour into Pandora Box, before coming back to the Beta world line. Then they continue on and integrate PR and VA into one single route. The details from the minor endings can be added where they see fit.

I don't like the idea of a DRINE reset that much for the anime.

My idea is that after Okabe figures out how to trick the world (PR ending), he goes back to his old mad scientist persona. Then the story continues on to VA.
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Old 2018-05-30, 14:42   Link #90
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I'm not sure how it would work the other way around though.
They could just have Pandora box for a limited period of time and switch back to PR, but this might be even more confusing for the anime viewers
But I really hope they keep V&A last. Not only Having Leskinen's agenda last makes more sense, but V&A climax suits the anime better.
Ironically, PR being the last route makes more sense to reach MWC.
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Old 2018-05-30, 14:49   Link #91
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I'm not sure how it would work the other way around though.
They could just have Pandora box for a limited period of time and switch back to PR, but this might be even more confusing for the anime viewers
But I really hope they keep V&A last. Not only Having Leskinen's agenda last makes more sense, but V&A climax suits the anime better.
Ironically, PR being the last route makes more sense to reach MWC.
Not necessarily. Kurisu switched the world line back to the "Beta" world line, but which version of it? Why not take this chance and jump to Pandora Box? I don't think it breaks any continuum. If they miss this chance, they will have to switch world lines again later to go to Pandora Box.

Besides, in the anime, Okabe remembered the news about the earthquake in Russia. So it must be important.

It will be confusing for VN readers, not anime-only viewers.
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Old 2018-05-30, 17:15   Link #92
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I love the fact that the anime expanded on this bit of the story. One thing I always wanted to see was the actual Kurisu talking about Maho with Okabe and we got just that so I'm a happy camper. I'm easy to please

Anyway I don't remember all the minor details of the VN so I'm just enjoying the anime for itself. I was afraid I was going to rage at the differences but thankfully I forgot so many details that unless they pull some gigantic changes I won't really care.
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Old 2018-05-30, 17:23   Link #93
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I personally don't think the changes would cause "rage" or anything. Either you prefer the more intimate and intense scene in the VN, the expanded scenes between all characters or the mix of both.
The only real problem is how they will keep the consistency all around, so it depends what kind of original content they will use next week.

The original series could stay true to the original vn while fleshing out the characters as well. But when you add things that might compromise the plot integrity (i.e Braun killing Moeka in the anime), then it is very hard to keep it consistent considering the nature of the plot.
Then again, we still have 15 episodes so anything can happen.
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Old 2018-05-30, 17:35   Link #94
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Question. From what source did you get that Kurisu leaked the amadeus project and how did this change the worldline back?
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Old 2018-05-30, 17:47   Link #95
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When Okarin is sent back to Beta, he met Maho who was on vacation in Japan this time around. He asked her about Amadeus, but she was astonished how he even knew about that project to begin with.
Maho explains that Amadeus project was shut down soon after Kurisu's death due to "ethic and moral complaints" from various groups, and apparently, and Maho figured out information about Amadeus was leaked to them.

This is the only case in the whole VN where Amadeus is shut down in the past, and it is only after Kurisu's D-mail. Of course, only Kurisu would know and benefit from that at the same time. There isn't really any other possibility how it could be anyone else but Kurisu.

This also explains how Okarin was sent to the Alpha World Line: The Alpha World Line could only happen if SERN got the time machine theory, and Antinomic Dual pretty much confirmed SERN got the info from Amadeus since they didn't abduct Kurisu, Daru and Okarin even though they were supposed to be needed for SERN.

This is the very reason why Kurisu's solution is the anime is kind of inconsistent, since Kurisu, Daru and Okabe are still free, even it is already Jan 2011. As such, just like in the VN, SERN isn't interested in them because they established their source of the time machine theory with Amadeus in that specific alpha world line.
Which is why it is weird that "keeping the ECHELON Dmail deletion" sequence works after all, because it doesn't prevent SERN to get their hands on Amadeus.
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Old 2018-05-30, 18:11   Link #96
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So...I'm trying to make an explanation regarding the whole SERN debacle. The first problem is the fuzziest, what prompted them to hack Amadeus in the first place. SERN attacking Amadeus means they know it holds the key to time machine. They can't learn that from Braun because Reyes' attack was right at the time Maho lost access to Amadeus so SERN had already hack it at that point. Did they learn it from Russia? Perhaps SERN tried to bug Russia first and learned about Kurisu from the paper Nakabachi had, then learned about Amadeus and tried to hack it?

The next part is easier to predict. Amadeus called for help to Okarin, so SERN knew that Okarin is an important individual. They then perhaps interrogated him and found out about the dystopia world line and thus changed the world line back to that 'somehow'. But it's this 'somehow' that is important because evidently Kurisu could turn it back to beta world line. In the game, we didn't know exactly what she did, so let's go with what was shown in the anime. Basically, SERN altered the timeline by preventing Okabe from deleting the first D-mail from Echelon that would've tipped them about time machines. This can be done in a number of ways, one I can think of is sending a D-Mail to Kurisu saying that even in beta world line Mayuri dies as well so she stopped Okarin.
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Old 2018-05-30, 18:21   Link #97
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I believe you are correct that Russian faction's activities tipped off SERN, hence why they had Moeka investigate for them. This is why SERN was present in both branch (blatantly demonstrated in TA with Moeka knowing Maho's password and in V&A for the laptop). And as you said, with Nakabachi claiming he has the time machine theory, SERN could probably be aware of that.
If anything, Maho explained in the VN that everything about Nabakachi was erased on the internet shortly after. If SERN noticed that, they probably realized Nakabachi's theory wasn't completely bogus and if they tied that with Kurisu, they have a bingo.

As for the second part, it is either your explanation or the fact Okarin picked up the call that allowed them to completely hack Amadeus.
The reason why I have such theory is because Amadeus connections were completely disabled, but it is very likely a response from Amadeus' server due to SERN cracking attempt OR SERN shutting down all accesses to the servers so they can crack it. Since Okarin accept the call, it pretty much opens an unsafe channel towards Amadeus. Both explanations work, since we know in Pandora Box the americans immediately took action when Okarin recognized Amadeus in the USSR world line, so your explanations about SERN realizing Okarin knows about the time machine is possible just by the fact Amadeus contacted him.

Regarding Kurisu's solution:
In the VN, as I explained above, Kurisu probably figured out about Amadeus since SERN still cracked its server (thus why she, Daru and Okabe, weren't abducted by the rounders). Knowing Maho, she probably reported that to Kurisu, and she therefore knew that SERN got her theory.

That said, I disagree that SERN prevented the D-mail deletion in ECHELON database. The reason is simple: in the anime, they weren't kidnapped. Simply put, that fact pretty much proves SERN isn't interested by the FG members and this is consistent with the fact that SERN cracked Amadeus.
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Old 2018-05-30, 18:23   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
When Okarin is sent back to Beta, he met Maho who was on vacation in Japan this time around. He asked her about Amadeus, but she was astonished how he even knew about that project to begin with.
Maho explains that Amadeus project was shut down soon after Kurisu's death due to "ethic and moral complaints" from various groups, and apparently, and Maho figured out information about Amadeus was leaked to them.

This is the only case in the whole VN where Amadeus is shut down in the past, and it is only after Kurisu's D-mail. Of course, only Kurisu would know and benefit from that at the same time. There isn't really any other possibility how it could be anyone else but Kurisu.

This also explains how Okarin was sent to the Alpha World Line: The Alpha World Line could only happen if SERN got the time machine theory, and Antinomic Dual pretty much confirmed SERN got the info from Amadeus since they didn't abduct Kurisu, Daru and Okarin even though they were supposed to be needed for SERN.

This is the very reason why Kurisu's solution is the anime is kind of inconsistent, since Kurisu, Daru and Okabe are still free, even it is already Jan 2011. As such, just like in the VN, SERN isn't interested in them because they established their source of the time machine theory with Amadeus in that specific alpha world line.
Which is why it is weird that "keeping the ECHELON Dmail deletion" sequence works after all, because it doesn't prevent SERN to get their hands on Amadeus.
Although this kind of boggles my mind, and I'm not sure I can quite follow, so I can't really test for inconsistencies. At the same time it does not entirely feel impossible either. I'm just extremely curious what kind of mind you'd need to fill in all these blanks.


I also wonder if you could explain in more detail how it is you think that the world shifted back to the alpha worldline in the first place.



...Also, not to like start a whole discussion again. But it does feel like you gave this more thought than the writer did, so it's even more surprising that it sounds so coherent, despite me being unable to follow.
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Old 2018-05-30, 18:36   Link #99
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The world shifted to the Alpha (as in, Kurisu is alive, Mayuri is dead), because it is consistent with the whole premise of "SERN got the time machine" thing.

Basically, the Alpha World Line occurs only when SERN has the time machine before anyone else, this lead to the following attractor fields:
-Mayuri dies without fail, regardless if the rounders raid the lab or not
-A dystopia is established by SERN in the future
-Because of the dystopia, Okarin creates the resistance, the Walkure. Daru is part of it and work on the time machine.
-Daru dies shortly after Suzuha's birth
-By 2025, Both Okarin and Kurisu are dead

With the established attractor fields, we know that SERN only need the time machine theory, which would be either the info itself, or the FG lab members.
Past that, everything goes. Because of this, Suzuha goes back to the past, but since Daru couldn't finish the time machine, she crashes into the radio tower, which drastically affects the present events (Nakabachi's seminar, Kurisu's status etc).

Therefore, if SERN gets their hands on a complete time machine theory, all of those events will play out again, leading to the alpha world line.
This is why the first d-mail was a pain in the ass for Okarin, but likewise, if SERN get a different time machine theory, the first d-mail doesn't matter (hence why FG membners aren't captured in the alpha world line of SG0).

As such, if SERN manages to crack Amadeus, they will have the time machine theory, leading to the world line shift.
The reason why Amadeus has the complete theory is pretty much the same for Kurisu in the beta world line: contrary to the alpha world line, Kurisu got information from Suzuha as John Titor. John titor explained in 2000 about WW3 and the kerr black hole stuff. It is the reason why Kurisu had the complete theory in the beta world line, yet believes the time machine is bogus in the alpha world line, since Suzuha never went to year 2000 in the alpha world line. She only went to 2010 then 1975.

That's also why Amadeus affects the world lines of sg0 to that degree since the theory she had is pretty much complete. As demonstrated by Russia, even Nakabachi's "fake" was enough for them to perform a successful time travel (USSR not abolished -> Cold War about time machine occuring in Pandora Box).
As such, it is pretty much certain an alpha world line shift is possible for sern if they hack Amadeus in the beta world line.

And as I said before, the fact none of the FG members were captured prove SERN don't care about them, therefore, it was Amadeus which was the trigger of the shift for SERN this time around.
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Old 2018-05-30, 19:15   Link #100
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That sounds interesting. And would be a better explanation. Seems the actual story is going for a different angle though.


Although I am left to wonder. How would Kurisu know how to fix this? What did she even do? There's only so much you can do with a D-mail.
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