2007-08-16, 14:46 | Link #2601 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Hi,
Could you provide me with the link to Lillilicious's website? While I agree that the controversial issues is what kept the series going, I was refering to Simoun becoming a potential mainstream series that could have gone on to becoming a commercial success at the level of Eureka 7 or Dragonball Z if the yuri and the trangender elements were removed. The unpredictability could still be retained without the controversial elements involved. I know that this series was aimed at the female market. In my honest opinion, Simoun has a very strong mainstream market potential, if the controversial elements were removed beforehand for the anime. And I still believe that Erii could have been a major character in the series as well. What's done is done. The writers wanted to go against conventional wisdom with this series, and they did their job well. I am not sure if it was successful as a marketing tool that Eukera 7 and Dragonball Z enjoys to this day. Was this series ever a commercial success as Eukera 7 or Dragonball Z? I am still not sure. Regardless to my opinion, I feel that the creators of Simoun are more than satisified at what they have accomplished. Writers and voice actors alike. |
2007-08-16, 14:57 | Link #2602 | ||||
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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darthfury78, you seem to be under the misconception that Simoun is based on a manga. It isn't.
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2007-08-16, 15:50 | Link #2603 | |
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This is just my interpretation of what I have read so far about episode 2. And yes I would have loved to have seen Erii as another major character is this series. As to whether or not Erii would have acted in the same way if she was given the female gender. I honestly don't know. But based on her reaction of begin given the MALE gender, which was not that of her own choosing, I feel that she might have been satisfied with the female gender. |
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2007-08-16, 16:08 | Link #2604 | |
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2007-08-16, 16:22 | Link #2605 | ||
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2007-08-16, 18:29 | Link #2606 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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darthfury78 touched off an interesting discussion.
1. Simoun without the gender aspects would have lost its main unique hook, for me, but it's an interesting thought. However, it could never have been a Eureka7 or a Dragonball Z because in my opinion it is too focused on people's feelings, rather than events, and because of the nature of the feelings it explores. Just a bit too shoujo -- and in my biased opinion too intelligent. 2. The theme of the show was, according to early interviews with the cast, the various sibyllae's reactions to the progress of the war, rather than the war itself. The nature of gender is another theme underlying everything. And the nature of time and reality, if it comes to that. And perhaps the nature of love: AaeruxNeviril, DominuraxLimone, ParaiettaxNeviril, MamiinaxRodore, KaimuxParaietta, KaimuxAlti, YunxOnashia, YunxMamiina -- all are interesting versions of love. 3. Eri didn't know what to choose. No matter which she imagined, she was dissatisfied. Perhaps she was more disappointed to be male, but perhaps it was just the end of choice that hurt her. In any case, we do see her again late in the series, so you can make a further judgment when you've seen her (I mean him) then. But I did love the character -- and the VA, Yukana, who played Dominura, too -- and would have found it interesting to see him through the show. But it was also interesting for adult pilots not to be allowed. And the scene as it was, with its searing finality, was one of the highlights of the show. If Erif had shown up in the next episode, it would have felt less powerful, in retrospect, I think. And he could never have spoken with Dominura, for one thing, lol. 4. I still don't know if the staff realized that their attempt to appeal to large male and female audiences was doomed. I think they are probably happy with the product, but not with its commercial success. I think the yuri aspects did alienate many people of both genders, and were too "subtext yuri" (thanks, Matrim) to appeal to a large male yuri audience in the way Strawberry Panic did. The OP kisses were an unfulfilled promise for many viewers, I expect. I think the show was too shoujo-ish to appeal to a mass male audience, as well. Not enough of either titillation or action.
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2007-08-17, 09:31 | Link #2607 |
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Now that I've taken the time to think about it, I feel that Eri's indecision was based upon either becoming an adult(Female Gender) or staying with her friends and fighting alongside with them.
I believe that if the natural course of action was allowed to run its course, Eri would not have made a decision at that time and would have returned to her squadron. She wasn't actually thinking about either choosing a Male or Female gender at all. I felt that she had already made the decision of choosing the Female gender, which would have signified her as a woman. Thus she would not have been allowed to fight alongside with her comrads, whom she was very close to. She didn't want to lose that bond of friendship. She would have prefered to have everyone who was of similar age to gone with her to the spring and make the choice together, which would be Female for most of them. She really didn't want to make that firm choice alone. When Erij returned in the last episode, he might have come to terms with his new life. However, everytime when he looks in the miror, he still sees himself as Eri, the girl he once was. A girl whose mind and sprit is trapped inside a man's body. I still believe that the author who had written episodes 1 and 2 should have allowed Eri to have left the temple without making a decision. That would have been a satisfying conclusion to this gender deciding issue, in my opinion. |
2007-08-18, 12:34 | Link #2608 | |
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Do you believe that Simoun could have been handled differently if they didn't add the transgender aspect to the series, and instead to have the characters born as either boys or girls? I feel that the series could have gotten a lot of positive response if they had kept the yuri aspect to a minimum. This might have had a better appeal to children. Start the series off by providing an opening for children to watch the start of the show and make it more complex overtime to lock them in as they grow up, like Naruto, Inuyasha, or Bleach. Do you believe that the show could have provide a more diverse subject matter as the three shows that I've mentioned? I do feel that the Simoun could have been a milti-product line that could aimed at different audiences in the following format. 1. Mainstream Anime 2. Exclusive OVA/Hentai that could have explore the charcters romantic relactionship in greater depth than what the TV series allowed. 3. A strong manga series that could esblished itself along the lines of Naruto, Inuyasha, or Bleach. 4. A series of movies Would this method of marketing had worked if the creators of the didn't come up with the transgender issue for the series? I do feel that it's the real reason why this series didn't do very well as it could have. Maybe they should create an alternate universe version where the subject of trangender didn't exist and the yuri is only exclusive to the OVA/Hentai format. What are your thoughts about the creators starting over with a new version of Simoun that could still retain some of the same characters, but without the issues that had made the series so controversial? |
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2007-08-18, 14:19 | Link #2609 | ||
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Not that I have watched Naruto but from its reputation, I think it's utterly pointless to use it as a reference in this thread or any other shounen action anime for that matter. The most popular shows, especially those with action elements, are plot driven while Simoun is very much character driven, the war is a background for character development. There is no way of turning Simoun into a Naruto with the end result being anywhere near the spirit of the original. BTW, are you implying that hetero relationships are OK in anime which might be watched by children while yuri is a no-no? Isn't that politically incorrect these days?
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2007-08-19, 12:13 | Link #2610 | |
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In my honest opinion, gender selection should be left up to Mother Nature as the child is being conceived. I believe that this is the direct root cause of the problem. I have no complaints about the yuri aspects of the story. But I feel that it could have been handled differently. A strong story line, along with strong and coheasive character and plot development are primary key towards making the show a commercial success. I feel that Simoun was just an experiment to try a different twist of making the series interesting a thought provoking. However, I felt that they had push those issues too hard in some case, which might have turned off a lot of people interest towards this series. The Eri storyline is a good example of a forced approach of this subject matter. Especially since the character was trying to make the right decision. The proper ending of that storyline should have been that she doesn't make a decision after all. But a Male gender was forced upon her, through no fault of her own choosing. I feel that this is the root cause of the problem. One must never force this matter in front of people. Episode 02 is by far the most controversial episode of the entire Simoun series. While this idea is unlikely to happen, the writers should go back and create an alternate ending for this episode to show that Eri doesn't make a decision, but takes a leave of absense from her duties as warrior. Sort of like taking a vacation. Or the could create an alternate universe version of Simoun where everyone is born either male or female. Retain all of the female characters from the original story, but the male characters as warriors as well in a separate unit fighting alongside them in battle. Simoun has a lot of protential to be like Salor Moon, or some of the other titles I've mentioned as well. But the Salor Moon concept could work as well. The yuri aspect isn't all that important. But it could be maximize through a OVA/Hentai manner in good taste, which could make the series even stronger. This could satisfy a lot of people's interest, in the same fashion as Bible Black, one of the top selling OVA/Hentai of all time due to its interesting storyline. And it doesn't over do it most of the time. That's all from my perspective. Most might disagree with my view of Simoun. But if one of the shows creaters would follow the example that I have stated, a potential goldmine could be unleashed for Simoun. Last edited by darthfury78; 2007-08-19 at 12:23. |
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2007-08-19, 16:05 | Link #2611 | |||||
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It's a rather sad state of affairs but if Studio DEEN wanted a really big hit, they wouldn't have gone for originality and might have done something close to what you'd have liked to see but I think someone mentioned that Simoun was never a priority project for them and had an awfully small budget, so I guess the creative team was given more freedom than those of the big hit series. Since I am not a shareholder in DEEN, I'd much rather have them making such shows every now and then and not go for mainstream hits all the time. But maybe that's just me being an elitist again. Quote:
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2007-08-20, 03:00 | Link #2613 |
気持ち悪い
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
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R1 DVD info
AOD have listed US release details for Simoun V1 - confirming the earlier announcment, it's six episodes (150 minutes), sub-only, and due out 2007-11-13. New info is the US$19.95 RRP, and that it's rated "16 up" (I'm not really clear on their rating system - is that some sort of official age restriction, or just the distributor's recommendation?).
EDIT: According to RightStuf, MB have chosen to translate コール as "Choir". Last edited by Simon; 2007-08-20 at 03:38. |
2007-08-20, 05:02 | Link #2614 |
気持ち悪い
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
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The good news: Ishikawa Chiaki has a new album out this week, and it includes a full-length version of the Simoun OP. Yay!
The bad news: the bonus DVD doesn't include the lovely promo video for the song that used to be on the JVC Music website. Boo! |
2007-08-20, 05:22 | Link #2615 |
Mmmm....
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I have to say that if you'd removed the gender issues from Simoun (which would also involve changing the whole way the society was structured), and if you tried to make it more 'commercial' then basically you would have wound up with Generic Action Adventure Series # 843861 and I wouldn't have been so interested.
Simoun had a beginning, a middle and an end. Admittedly it may not have been a conclusive end but an end it was, and I thought it was a good end. The writers generated a consistent world, the use of an all female voice cast was inspired, as was the idea to have episode one narrated by 'the enemy'. And at the end it left you with questions, many of which remained unanswered or were merely hinted at. I wouldn't want it any other way. |
2007-08-20, 06:32 | Link #2616 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Man. Talk about a tough crowd. I have to give the creators of Simoun a lot of credit for at least trying to something that is unconventional from the other anime shows. But they were probably aware that the path that they set out for themselves might make Simoun into a stigma, which would result in limited commercial success, which is vital for making more future Simoun programs.
I still feel that Simoun could become a powerful medium if its controversial issues were removed and addressed in a different form. Including the removal of gender selection issue. But I feel that the general public has spoken about Simoun prospects already. I haven't seen anything new on the manga version of the series. The last information on it goes up to December, 2006. At least Evangelion's manga went on after the TV series ended. I'll assume that the reason why they are no new manga of Simoun is because the author/creator was disappointed that his creation was not a commercial success. Thus decided to concentrate on other projects. I believe that Simoun was a very good lesson plan to try out and to test controversial issues that is rarely found in TV anime. Perhaps, the writers wanted to go all out and create a product that they could be proud of because they might not get another opportunity to do so again, dispite the results of the contrary. The success of Simoun depended on the support of the japanese viewers and supportors. But then again, Cowboy Bebop and The Original Bubble Gum Crises OVA weren't that popular in Japan either and went on to become giant success stories in the international market. Maybe it could find its audience in North America. But I still feel that the idea of girls becoming either Male or Female will be a let down for a lot of viewers. In real life, when it comes to transgender, a very small number of those who opt for this proceedure are women. Men make up the majority of cases when it comes to this issue. It'll be quite interesting to see how well this series will do in America. Regardless of my opinion, I say that Simoun should be brought back as a manga again that reflects an alternate universe of the story in the Weekly Shonen Jump. This is the only option that the author could try to restablish the series as a mainstream medium. Once the manga has established itself, then exploring the yuri relationship among the characters slowly. Never forced, like the anime. |
2007-08-20, 10:31 | Link #2617 | |
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2007-08-20, 11:17 | Link #2618 | |
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That's exactly the point. The anime, in my opinion, was an experiment to test ideas that may or may not work. It's a plateform that did not work very well with the general viewing audience, especially if it was geared towards the young female market. And yes, the new version would have nothing to do with the original version because it was not considered a market success. Everything is about money these days. Whoever gets the most positive exposure will definately be in a position to market Simoun is different areas of the market, such as a Hentai game that could focus on the yuri aspects in greater depth, etc. Again, I am not certain how well Simoun will do once the series is released over here. But one thing is certain, I doubt that the creator of this series will ever attempt to create another series that was similar to the controversial elements which plagued Simoun to the point that it can not be marketed properly. That's why starting over with Simoun(while retaining the original characters including Eri) might create a positive response with viewers and consumers alike. The idea is to bring everyone into the story and lock them into it and growing the series overtime. Making it better than the story after that. I am talking about the manga. I would have certainly would have liked to have spoken to the creator of Simoun and discuss these ideas with him and know what his views would be. There are not too many things relating to Simoun out there. So starting over is the best solution if the creator chooses to. It's been done to a number of anime titles in the past. So why should Simoun be any different? Last edited by darthfury78; 2007-08-20 at 11:30. |
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2007-08-20, 12:39 | Link #2619 | ||
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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Maybe I am sidetracknig your main point, but it seems to me that you are almost accussing Simoun for trying to be original, even if it was original in a way that many people didn't like. Heck, going avant le garde is one of the things that make anime great. Quote:
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2007-08-20, 12:43 | Link #2620 | |||
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drama, science fiction, yuri |
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