Fate/Apocrypha - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[GDB]

For those wondering how Shirou got the other Masters' CS, there was a post ED scene in one of the episodes where he goes into the room he's keeping them in and tells them he won the war for them, so it's time for them to pay up with their CS as promised.

[Renchan]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The anime pretty much nipped that theory in the bud by giving him a completely different voice from Shirou though. I don't get why they did that. The author obviously wanted us to think he was F/SN's Shirou adopted by Kotomine instead, or he wouldn't have given him both the same hair color and skin tone as Archer's. The anime might as well have gone all the way and given him the same voice too.

Amakusa's seiyuu choice wasn't really the anime's fault and considering FGO's popularity in Japan, I wouldn't be surprised if the JP viewers already know who he is from the start.

That aside, I still find plenty of people who mistook Amakusa as "Emiya Shirou if he's raised as Kotomine". It does help that his speech mannerism is different from Shirou, so the voice difference was a bit less obvious.

[Anh_Minh]

Did Vlad have any link to the Tsukihime vampires, or did his vampirism come entirely from posthumous legends?

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Did Vlad have any link to the Tsukihime vampires, or did his vampires come entirely from posthumous legends?

No connection to Dead Apostles, and the vampire Dracula never existed. In terms of age, the tales of Dracula is only a little over a hundred years old, so by vampire standards that should make him relatively weak. At the same time, Dracula is the single apex of cognition when it comes to the subject of vampires, trumping any Dead Apostles, so that makes him incredibly powerful due to the universal fame boost Servants get.

Another difference is that Tsukihime vampires (the "real" ones) often subverts vampire tropes greatly, being vastly different than stereotypical bloodsuckers, while Dracula accumulates the expected vampire traits due to being the trope codifier that caused vampires to become more popular worldwide in the first place.

[XFire]

Yeah, Nasu makes a point of mentioning in Vlad's may book profile that his vampire for is based entirely off of "classical vampires" and that Dead Apostles are totally different.

[HandofFate]

was neat to see the heroes of both sides team up to fight because it was more important than the war.

Without prior knowledge from the bits of info in here, I would not be able to piece together the references or stuff happening in this timeline though.

[AnimeFan188]

Since Priest-boy (Shirou) has been revealed to be a Ruler-class servant, shouldn't he be able to to command the other
heroic spirits without stealing the red master's command seals? Or did he steal the command seals so he could boss
the other servants without revealing his presence in the Grail War?

Or maybe Shirou's command power only applies to servants summoned for the earlier holy grail war?

Darnic has a habit of popping up wherever he needs to be. First he popped in to threaten Gordes when he tried to use
a command seal to make Seigfried use his noble phantasm. Now he appears within the hanging gardens when he needs to
show Vlad who's the master in their relationship. Does he have the ability to teleport or something?

Poor Vlad. Not only is he forced to assume a form he despises (thereby becoming the type of threat to the world that
any Heroic Spirit would feel compelled to fight), but he ends up getting possessed by Darnic and forced to charge into
Shirou's ambush. Sucks to be a lancer, no matter how powerful you are. Now I wonder what nasty fate is in store for
Karna.

Have we really seen the last of Darnic? His demise seemed a bit anticlimactic (and suspicious), considering that:

- He had decades to prepare for this war.

- He was known to have done research on immortality.

- He used a command seal to compel Vlad (and therefore himself) to not die until he held the Grail.

I wonder if Darnic is really permanently gone?

Fiores looks to be taking command of the situation on the ground, but the only servants of black that are still on the
ground are Astolfo, and Jack The Ripper (who's an enemy to everyone at this point). Seig is there too, but he's
wounded, and he has no reason to take orders from Fiores.

On the red team, Mordred & her master are on the ground, while Semiramis, Achilles, Karna, Atalanta & Shakespeare are
up in the hanging gardens (Spartacus is kaput).

What happens next? I guess we won't find out 'till next week.

Same Fate time! Same Fate channel!

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Uh...Dracula and his minion-vampire’s designs in this episode look so cartoonish I was actually laughing whenever they were on screen. Their features are so exaggerated they look like something out of Scooby Doo cartoons. I don’t know if that was the designers & animators’ intention but damn, I just can’t take it seriously .

Originally Posted by Sheba

The actual red herring that mislead people is the Shirou name. Lots of fans were thinking that he could be our good old Shirou F/SN if he was raised by the Kotomine. Only the more history savvy did know about that other Shirou.

Ironically, I learned and know about Amakusa Shiro years ago when I was young after watching Rurouni Kenshin (Samurai X) where Kenshin clashed with Amakusa Shogo, the christian leader and a fellow Amakakeru-user samurai .

And speaking of Ruler-Shirou & Ruler-Jeanne, do Rulers have to be devout christians in their lives?

And about Darnic this episode......well, I’ve never felt this feeling of a voice acting being a bit inappropriate for a character in this anime before like when I heard Darnic yelling, screaming and laughing maniacally. During his entire outburst, I was taken out of the show and I could only picture this character (that the VA voiced) in my head:

Images

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What did you do, Nobuyuki Hiyama? You should’ve used your Hiei-voice for that outburst instead of Kohta Hirano-voice .

EDIT:

Originally Posted by belatkuro

The 3rd war is anything but regular. A lot of rules were broken and it was held during the war. It was chaotic.

Has there ever been a war where all the rules are upheld from beginning to end and free from chaos? Is it the 1st war? The 2nd war? Also, what's a "regular Holy Grail War" means anyway?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Has there ever been a war where all the rules are upheld from beginning to end and free from chaos? Is it the 1st war? The 2nd war? Also, what's a "regular Holy Grail War" means anyway?

There wasn't a "first war", just a first "Heaven's Feel" that failed because you need 7 sacrifices, not 3. The traditional Holy Grail War didn't start until the second, when they invited four other families to participate.

That said, we know nothing of the second, so who knows what manner of cheating happened there. I assume it was relatively normal and the cheating began after that one failed, though.

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by GDB

There wasn't a "first war", just a first "Heaven's Feel" that failed because you need 7 sacrifices, not 3. The traditional Holy Grail War didn't start until the second, when they invited four other families to participate.

That said, we know nothing of the second, so who knows what manner of cheating happened there. I assume it was relatively normal and the cheating began after that one failed, though.

Even the traditional 7-participants war setup is meant to be cheating. You may have heard some characters mention about the Knight classes (Saber, Archer, Lancer) being better than the rest in places. That's because originally once the Three Great Families realized they needed more participants, they took kept those 3 classes to themselves and intended for the rest to be weaker, just mana fuel for them to dispatch. Obviously this no longer applies and most series try to keep things relatively balanced or at least not have inherently superior classes, though even then members of the knight classes tend to be among the strongest in a lot of the series.

[GDB]

They just have the best container stat modifiers/floor values. But that really doesn't mean anything when NPs are the true deciders in the vast majority of battles.

[HandofFate]

so how famous of a figure is Amakusa Shirō Tokisada in Japanese history?
Is he Nobunaga tier?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

so how famous of a figure is Amakusa Shirō Tokisada in Japanese history?
Is he Nobunaga tier?

I don’t think Shirou Amakusa is Nobunaga-tier especially considering the little achievement he had compared to someone like Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, Tokugawa or Genji/Yoshitsune. He was mostly famous as the leader and defender of the Japanese Christians in Shimabara, Nagasaki. He was killed/executed at a very young age (16) during his rebellion. Heck, I don't think he's as famous as Shingen Takeda or Uesugi Kenshin in Japan.

[XFire]

Actually, he's pretty famous within Japan. He's a really popular tragic figure from what I gathered, though not to the level of a national icon like Nobunaga.

He was basically the biggest Christian figure to them for a long time.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by XFire

He was basically the biggest Christian figure to them for a long time.

In a way, I agree. He's the biggest Japanese christian figure because there's not many christian figures in ancient Japan to begin with. And AFAIK, he's the only christian historic figure that's popular among common people, so whenever a theme of christianity in Japan history was brought up, the Japanese minds will almost always go to Shiro Amakusa. He doesn't have a competition in that aspect. Shirou Amakusa is mostly remembered by modern Japanese people as "That christian dude who died defending his people from the shogunate".

[MeoTwister5]

Should also add that Amakusa Shogou from Rurouni Kenshin is based on him.

[Sheba]

He was also a recurring boss and playable character in Samurai Spirits fighting game series. Thats how I have known him back in 93. The Japanese Christian community have been trying to get the Roman Catholic Church canonize him and making him a Saint, like how Jeanne d'Arc was. But they have not succeeded, because he failed some requirements (like a performing a miracle: Jeanne d'Arc apparently made a rusted sword normal again, she healed the wound of a soldier and cured someone from tuberculosis, so people said. Saint Martha defeated the Tarrasque and she was helped by the fact she was the sister of Lazarus).

[Moekou]

He's also in some recent Shin Megami Tensei games as Tokisada.



His profile in SMT4: "Fully known as Amakusa Shiro Tokisada, his baptismal name was "Geronimo", though it became "Francisco" during the time of the rebellion.
He was the leader of the Kan-ei 14 (1637) rebellion of Shimabara, though it is said that the mastermind of the rebellion was someone else and that Shiro was set up as the leader. After successfully defeating the Shogunate army several times, the rebels were finally besieged at Hara Castle and killed. His head was put on public display. He lived a mere 16 years."

[Dengar]

RIP Vlad Tepes, it seems the Lancer class is cursed to die a humiliating death at every turn.

So as it turns out, Priest Boy is actually the Ruler-class servant from the previous war, Amakusa Shiro Tokisada. I know very little of who he is (other than some sort of Japanese catholic priest), but this plot twist was already spoiled to me back when I never thought Apocrypha would get a real adaptation (although the flow of the story is quite unknown to me).

I did always wonder what a Ruler class servant was doing in the third war, which afaik was not a great war. But it seems that in this continuity, he was the Einzbern servant, which was Avenger in the Stay Night continuity. So maybe it was the usual Einzbern cheating at work here?

[Diluc]

What are going to happen to black faction now?
They are fcked up, their leader Darnic is gone this obviously red faction victory now.