What's their problem?

[DekaMaster]

Originally Posted by exedore

The translators I used for Sexy Commando and a few eps of LoGH would set a base price ($50 for a 25 min episode) and would take deposit with the source material. They'd then watch through the material and warn you up front if they felt it would be extra difficult (and therefore extra expensive) and offer to drop it and send you back your money if you didn't want to pay extra.

We may have only gotten four episodes of LoGH from them, but damn if they weren't some of the best I've seen for the show.

Truth be told, I wonder what would happen if more digisubbers had to pay for translators...I bet a lot more oldskool would get done as the excuse of the translator not wanting to watch it pretty much goes out the window when there's a financial incentive. On the other hand, finding a way of inspiring sponsorship could become increasingly difficult as well...offering an SVHS just doesn't have the weight that it used to.

Paying some one to translate a fansub is.....

[Lucier]

(continuing from Ranger's post)...
is... the way that ALL old school fansubbers used to do it.

And truth be told, they're not translating for a fansub... they're doing a job.
What their work gets used for, that type of translator doesn't care about, they're merely doing a job.


Thats why donations were *NEEDED* in old school fansubbing... to pay for the translations, as well as the materials! (the episode LDS)...

Most groups still ask for donations these days... but they're generally more for offsetting webhosting costs and perhaps paying for DVDs... though translations are almost all done "in house" these days.

[Harlock_II]

people complaining about the quality of something they get for free? You gotta be joking...
But unfortunately the first law of working in the anime market (professionally of not) is that at least 80% of the ones watching your "products" will be 100% sure they'd be able to do it better than you...

[zalas]

Originally Posted by Harlock_II

people complaining about the quality of something they get for free? You gotta be joking...
But unfortunately the first law of working in the anime market (professionally of not) is that at least 80% of the ones watching your "products" will be 100% sure they'd be able to do it better than you...

When I finish a project "for free," I'd also like to get feedback on how well I did, positive or negative. Negative feedback may upset me, but it helps in the long run to improve the quality of work I do. Furthermore, not doing a high quality job on a fansub because of various reasons like trying to get the most downloads sometimes drives the point of a lack of respect for the animation you are subtitling. It's like some kid scribbling a shoddy picture of the Mona Lisa and saying "ooh look at what I did, aren't I cool?!"

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Lucier

Most groups still ask for donations these days... but they're generally more for offsetting webhosting costs and perhaps paying for DVDs... though translations are almost all done "in house" these days.

I wouldn't say most. but yeah, some do.

-Tofu

[Harlock_II]

Originally Posted by zalas

When I finish a project "for free," I'd also like to get feedback on how well I did, positive or negative. Negative feedback may upset me, but it helps in the long run to improve the quality of work I do. Furthermore, not doing a high quality job on a fansub because of various reasons like trying to get the most downloads sometimes drives the point of a lack of respect for the animation you are subtitling. It's like some kid scribbling a shoddy picture of the Mona Lisa and saying "ooh look at what I did, aren't I cool?!"

Negative criticism is always welcome, but there are times (and expecially in the anime field that's NOT rare at all) in wich it's just made for the sake of criticize, and if this is despicable when it's done to a professional product it's even more despicable when done to a free product made out of passion alone.
It's sad to say it, but the anime environment is full to the point of exploding of "know it all" otakus that do nothing else that criticize just for the sake of it out of their absolute and unshakeable belief they would do it much better than the ones that did it.

[Secret Squirrel]

totally agree.

If you can't offer help or make a useful suggestion to go with your criticism, then don't criticise at all!

"[fansub-group] does make some small errors that spoil an otherwise excellent release. Possibly holding off the release for one day for extra QC on the grammar could change their next release from a good release to an absolutely superb release." - is an example of constructive criticism.

"How f*****g lame are [fansub-group]? I wasted half an hour watching that s**t! Someone should h4x0r their channel" - is an example of childish, spoilt behaviour, unfortunately seen all to often, by someone who considers themself some kind of otaku, when really they do nothing, probably close their BT window down with a s/r of 0.1

It is hard for a new group not to fall into the speedsubbing trap. What's even harder is to get good results without lagging behind all the rest. What's hard? The WORK is hard. Sure, it's rewarding knowing your work is being watched and hopefully enjoyed by thousands of people - and yes, the ego does get a boost from that. But it would be far easier to sit back and just d/l what others do. IMO a group has "made it" when they needn't release first, because people will hold off to collect an entire series by that group. But how does a new group get noticed? By releasing fast. Some groups will improve quality and keep up the speed as they progress, others won't. But encouragement for groups which are striving to improve all the time is rare, and wouldn't go amiss

[JAppi]

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

"[fansub-group] does make some small errors that spoil an otherwise excellent release. Possibly holding off the release for one day for extra QC on the grammar could change their next release from a good release to an absolutely superb release." - is an example of constructive criticism.

I believe flonne/Red_HamsterX/Ocarina has done this once and really pissed people off.

[titan3001]

My point of view is that if its free then don't complain. That goes for anything not just fansubs.

[Kyoji]

Originally Posted by titan3001

My point of view is that if its free then don't complain. That goes for anything not just fansubs.

so if you got a free burger that was undercooked and made you feel sick, you wouldnt complain?

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by Lucier

Most groups still ask for donations these days... but they're generally more for offsetting webhosting costs and perhaps paying for DVDs... though translations are almost all done "in house" these days.

As I recall in the start of the digisub age, asking for donations was completely taboo. I know the old-schoolers from one particular group were dead set against it, and there was a big stink when the first digisub group put up a tip jar on their website (I forget who... someone starting with an A, I think; I could be wrong). The point is, if you're going to be claiming something is free, then you can't accept any money for it. Once you start saying, "Well, we can't release this episode because we can't pay the translator," or "We need money to buy the DVDs for this series," what you're really saying is, "You have to pay us to get our work." Sure the costs may be fixed and may be just to cover your expenses (but your time is an expense, too, how do I know I'm not paying you for that?), but those things in no way equate to free.

Some time back, one of the newer members from that one group threw together a new website, and just tossed a donations button on it. I don't think they even realized what toes they were stepping on. This earned them a couple of harsh words from one of the old fogies, but that was it. I believe the donations button is still there. I don't know if anything's ever been donated (Recent Donators: None, the page says), and if it has, I have no idea what the money has been used for.

I don't mean to disparage tape subbers. Their costs are much higher than digisubbers. I certainly wouldn't invest that much of my money just to give something away. But digisubbers have no such excuse. A typical set of DVDs for a show cost around US$500 (depending on the episode count, age, etc., 4000-6000 yen a DVD, roughly). That's expensive, sure, but it's not like you haven't received something of tangible value for your money. At the very least you can e-Bay them after you're done translating and recover some of your investment. But the truth is a lot of people just pirate the R2 DVDs they use (or use TV rips, also technically pirated), and so the total monetary cost of bringing you a fansub is $0. Maybe paying for a website is nice, but no one says you need a web site, and even then there is tons of free hosting out there, free BT trackers, etc.

And just to be on topic, I think Lunar or any other fansubbers are smart enough not to care at all what faults whiny leechers find with their work. If you really could do better, then why aren't you helping them out? If you aren't actively contributing, then you have no room to criticize.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by titan3001

My point of view is that if its free then don't complain. That goes for anything not just fansubs.

Leechers shouldn't complain, sure.

But I think Fansubbers have a right to complain if shoddy releases are being done fast and 'undercutting' a more accurate version, so to speak. Most fansubbers get attached to their projects and don't like to see the majority of fans watching versions that have poor translations and are misrepresenting the show.

The fault really lies with the leechers. If they didn't always download the first version to be released regardless of quality than the whole speedsubbing phenomenon wouldn't exist

-Tofu

[Harlock_II]

Originally Posted by Kyoji

so if you got a free burger that was undercooked and made you feel sick, you wouldnt complain?

I REALLY doubt a poor fansub harms your health you know?

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

But I think Fansubbers have a right to complain if shoddy releases are being done fast and 'undercutting' a more accurate version, so to speak. Most fansubbers get attached to their projects and don't like to see the majority of fans watching versions that have poor translations and are misrepresenting the show.

A good job always stands out over a bad job in the long run, anyway between professional producers there's an unwritten rule (and when it's not respected they give quite a pathetic show): Don't talk about someone else's work if you can't tell good things about it.
Morale: think about doing YOUR work well and don't try to attack other's work, because it's really pathetic.

[hunterx]

it wouldn't be a problem if fansub groups had some thick skin. So who cares what people say just ignore them. If you're fan subbing because you want people to admire your work and say how great you are then it is going to bother you when people say your group sucks or something. fansubbing is not a friggin contest

[hunterx]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Leechers shouldn't complain, sure.

But I think Fansubbers have a right to complain if shoddy releases are being done fast and 'undercutting' a more accurate version, so to speak. Most fansubbers get attached to their projects and don't like to see the majority of fans watching versions that have poor translations and are misrepresenting the show.

The fault really lies with the leechers. If they didn't always download the first version to be released regardless of quality than the whole speedsubbing phenomenon wouldn't exist

-Tofu

that made me chuckle. so the flamers are the other fansub groups who go about flaming other fansub groups and the ones to blame are the leechers? haha

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by hunterx

that made me chuckle. so the flamers are the other fansub groups who go about flaming other fansub groups and the ones to blame are the leechers? haha

Well, it's the attitude of the leechers that spawned all these speedsubbing groups. Or do you fail to see that?

-Tofu

[Patapi]

This is the exact reason I left Fansubbing altogether. I wasn't into fansubbing for glory or credit, I did it because I enjoyed it, but then leechers, and people within my own group started preassuring me to work faster and faster, and to put my real life on hold to finish a Sub. Now I am sorry but I had to make a choice, and my real life came first, on top of the fact that it was no fun to sub anymore with someone breathing down your neck every minute of the day asking : Is it done??" "when will it be done??" Or other group members deciding to take over the project you loved because you were too slow. (Yes I am STILL bitter after a year)

It may take only 2 -3 hours to translate an ep, but you forget what about the translator's real life? School, work, gf/bf, parents. There could me many many things going on. Some people seem to think that the fansub groups do nothing but sub all day.

SO I agree with the statement: if it's free don't complain. And to answer the statment: If you got a free burger and it was undercooked, wouldn't you complain? Answer: No I'd throw it out and thank god I didn't have to pay for it and move on.

[Harlock_II]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Well, it's the attitude of the leechers that spawned all these speedsubbing groups. Or do you fail to see that?

-Tofu

You don't like theese "speedsubbing groups" whoever they are (and being fast doesn't always mean doing a bad job, it often just means people are better organized)? Do not watch their productions.
Do you think you can do a better job? Take your time, roll up your sleeves and do it. People will decide with their heads what they wanna watch.

[hunterx]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Well, it's the attitude of the leechers that spawned all these speedsubbing groups. Or do you fail to see that?

-Tofu

I.. well we.. fail to see what is wrong with a speedsubbing group.

[Patapi]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Well, it's the attitude of the leechers that spawned all these speedsubbing groups. Or do you fail to see that?

-Tofu

Honestly if you're not fansubbing for yourself first then I don't think you should be subbing. Not to be mean or antyhting. I think that you should think of subbing because you want to see the series done right and have a good copy for yourself. And you distro youre good copy to everyone as a coutesy. You should be subbing for yourself not for the leechers.