2010-07-18, 10:13 | Link #14102 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!! In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!! If Battler had been the detective in EP5, then the objective viewpoint rule from Knox certainly would have applied to him because Knox was shown to be in effect for that episode. That's why his whole argument with Dlanor was possible. However, even though Battler actually was the detective for EP1-4, because Knox doesn't apply to those games, it was never shown that the detective position had the same restrictions attached to it as it did in EP5. Because pieces continued to move on the board after that time. That doesn't mean you're wrong about the game not ending at midnight, but maybe you're erring in the wrong direction. What actual basis is there for thinking that the reason Battler participated in fantasy scenes at the end of EP1-2 was because the game had ended? EP3 established that Battler can witness the moment of his own death without it being falsified by the witch.
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2010-07-18, 10:15 | Link #14103 | |
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I edited the previous post, please check.
As it regard "Battler and Beatrice don't say anything before shooting Erika.", I am referring to the Battler and Beato's dialogue before Erika says "Aaahh! So you have to flirt in front of me!!" or something like that, at the end of EP6 Quote:
Well, I think the dialogue they have before Erika says "Aaahh! So you have to flirt in front of me!!" (aah, Erika ç__ç) actually has to refer to Beatrice's heart exposing and the red they shoot together (is the only thing they do after that xD)
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Last edited by Linkin Battler; 2010-07-18 at 10:25. |
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2010-07-18, 10:27 | Link #14104 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quite a large number of mysteries violate Knox in some way, just like quite a large number violate Dine. They're supposed to be suggestive guidelines for fair play, not weapons to be wielded against the author. Any rule other than "the puzzle must be fair and solvable with the given hints" is fundamentally unnecessary.
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2010-07-18, 10:27 | Link #14105 |
Witch of Ambition
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It can still be a mystery without Knox, otherwise it would have been mentioned already. Since we don't actually have a confirmation yet that Knox applies to the story, we have to either assume it does or doesn't. While there's evidence it does apply to Ep 5, there's none that it applies to 1-4.
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2010-07-18, 10:32 | Link #14106 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The "this time" is related to issue of Battler being the detective or not and having objective perception or not in this game. In no way the "this time" is connected to the right to falsify the viewpoint. If you were right Dlanor would have worded it this way: Was it ever shown that you were not the detective, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, this time you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!! But such a thing is not even suggested. @Linkin Battler If you call it your opinion it's all right, but in no way your opinion proves anyone wrong, nor confirms anything. I personally do not think that your reasoning is the most logic assumption. It's quite far-fetched in my eyes. I believe that it's definitely more logic to think that Erika who came after four games would be numbered the last human on Rokkenjima. Your reasoning is a lot more feeble in comparison. specifically because if you think "people" refers to living people and "humans" includes human corpses. then Erika might have been considered the 18th person, but in no way she could have been considered the 18th human at any given time by that definition. You are making arbitrary switches of definitions according to what is more convenient for you.
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2010-07-18, 10:40 | Link #14107 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Unless it was [ever shown that you were not the detective this time], you do not have the right to falsify your point of view. She is clearly talking about the current game. There is no ambiguity here at all.
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2010-07-18, 10:55 | Link #14109 | ||
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However, I find more logical my argument and I don't understand why Erika could not be the 18th human. She could have also been the 5th or the 13th, it depends on how you count them. And... I find your reasoning more feeble for many reasons and I number Kinzo as the last since he does not even appear anymore in the game, he is completely useless. Anyhow, I think it is useless to continue arguing on that, we won't find anything new and it is quite impossible for me and for you to change our ideas. I have another thing to discuss, can you reread the piece in EP3 when they talk about Nanjo's homicide and EVA says in red many things about everyone's red? I think that from that piece is clear that there is another person and EVA is just trying to think Battler making him believes they are the only three survivors, while there is another person alive. Personally, I think that the theory of Battler sucks, do you find any other solutions? You should know already, I think to humanBeatrice, but I'd like to know if anyone of you find / has found another solution 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
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2010-07-18, 11:26 | Link #14110 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Well, with Battler's "objective viewpoint" in EP2, remember what Battler was doing before Genji brought him to Kinzo's room: he was drinking hard liquor.
He was drunk when he saw Kinzo and Beatrice alive in the mansion. I do not know if it's ever allowed for the detective to be in a state where he cannot "detect" to the best of his ability, but the way I see it, it does not conflict with any Knox Rules directly. |
2010-07-18, 11:58 | Link #14111 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The solution I thought at the time of EP3 was that Nanjo died before the start of the game and the "Nanjo" in the gameboard is another Nanjo. I am not so sure about that however at this point. The trick of using reds about homonym people not present in the gameboard is a very bad trick, even if it has never denied, unfortunately. Another more recent interpretation is that Shannon and Kanon only died as furniture and therefore the original persona was still free to roam. By human Beatrice you mean that Beatrice is a separate entity and that shannon and kanon are the same person? There are several problems with that. 1) the first is the fact that in EP6 we see a monologue that strongly hints that Beatrice was created from a person that knew Battler very well. It is very hard to ignore that. 2) the second is the fact that Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice are suggested to be connected in the love trial. The love trial is one of the best argument you can use to support the shkanon theory, however the interpretation of the love trial in that sense makes Beatrice automatically another personality of the same host body. The whole explanation of "the magic can only be granted to a single couple" would decay, and you'd have to find another explanation in the case of Beatrice, losing one of the major arguments to support shkanon theory. Additionally when Shannon wins it is said that kanon's soul and Beatrice's soul dissolve and gather in Shannon. it is also said that in case Beatrice won, Shannon and Kanon would dissolve and gather into Beatrice. Only those three are mentioned, while Battler, George and Jessica are inexplicably left untouched. Inexplicably, unless it's only Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon who share a special connection. 3) Another major point of shkanon is that Battler has never seen both Shannon and Kanon at the same time. However Beatrice's presence is even more dubious. If she really exists as an individual person, why she almost never show herself and the only time she did, she did it in a very ambiguous manner?
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2010-07-18, 11:59 | Link #14112 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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I think....
People with Detective status is supposed to have trustworthy viewpoint, not objectively correct viewpoint. Sometimes with backup information like the detective was an experienced one, having learnt medicine, etc, then the readers can be assured that their autopsy was trustworthy and true. However, common people with detective status may not have this kind of privilege, so even though we should believe he told what he had seen, what he had heard, what he had examined, they were not supposed to be correct. Hence, Erika, who was said to have eidetic memory, with great experience in examining corpses, her observation was trustworthy and true. The GM simply raised this common but implicit knowledge of readers (the Knox rules) to truth by using red texts. Battler, as a novice detective and normal person, could be cheated, fooled even though he was the detective in EP1-4. But Erika was different, so don't compare these two people even though they both had had detective status. THe reason why Erika's observation can be raised into truth was because EP5 followed Knox rules, while GM Battler allowed some of the Knox rules (no secret tunnels for the closed-room) to be applied in EP6.
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2010-07-18, 12:01 | Link #14113 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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...actually, that might be a hint for Ep4.
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2010-07-18, 12:12 | Link #14115 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Maybe Kinzo also had a marijuana hoard Edit: Also, wasn't it said that the stench of the liquor from Kinzo's room wasn't from alcohol itself, but from preservatives used to "mummify" Kinzo or something? I don't remember if I read there here or if it was actually from the games. But if Battler mistook that, well... But I don't remember if it's actually a fact. |
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2010-07-18, 12:26 | Link #14116 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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I have seen ketamine proposed by someone to explain Maria's dream in Ep3 which is for some reason narrated by Rosa.
They may have a point, a bottle of alcohol with something hallucinogenic in it may have ended up on the island and could possibly be responsible for some of the things Battler sees after ingesting it as well as some of the things reported by people in Ep4. Quote:
My current opinion is that the body was buried, but someone exhumed it early on the 4th before rain or dark. (Instead of the night of the 4th as was usually thought prior, which is way too impractical to do.)
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2010-07-18, 12:49 | Link #14117 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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2010-07-18, 13:23 | Link #14118 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Quote:
So, there's no need to worry about the dirty details of 'humans' and 'persons'. A dead person can be counted as a person, or that can be not counted. It depends on the context. As for the third game, the word 'human' is not used at all. It just uses that counter 人 to add up humans and furniture, since a counter is less specific than a word. Simply put, EP3: List of names, so 人 is counting the number of names. Never says that these names refer to humans. EP6: Erika refers to the number of humans, so 人 is counting the number of humans for both the 17 and the 18.
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2010-07-18, 13:50 | Link #14119 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But it's still a problem chrono.
As I told you already, if both parties talk about the same thing then the two reds are not compatible. The context can't be any different if what Battler and Beato said is to be related to what Erika said. Otherwise they talk about different things. And then you can't be sure about what Battler and Beato were talking about.
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2010-07-18, 13:52 | Link #14120 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
No body => no need to supervise it, everyone happy.
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