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View Poll Results: Gurren-Lagann - Episode 27 (END) Rating
Perfect 10 340 65.01%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 97 18.55%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 35 6.69%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 3.44%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 1.53%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.38%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 0.57%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.38%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.19%
1 out of 10 : Painful 17 3.25%
Voters: 523. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-10-02, 21:45   Link #381
WALAOA
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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The ending makes me feel so sad. Nia death , simon becoming a nobody and YOKO A OLD HAG. I feel so unsatisfied . Simon situation is just too sad for me even thought i understand that he have done what he can and is leaving the future to mankind.
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Old 2007-10-02, 22:01   Link #382
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
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Originally Posted by WALAOA View Post
The ending makes me feel so sad. Nia death , simon becoming a nobody and YOKO A OLD HAG. I feel so unsatisfied . Simon situation is just too sad for me even thought i understand that he have done what he can and is leaving the future to mankind.
Hey! Don't knock old people!

Yoko is Yoko. She is't any less of a person just because she aged. And Simon isn't a nobody, he is Simon the Digger. He want to help people, and he does not desire fame. People mattered to him, knew what he achieved. That's good enough for him.
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Old 2007-10-02, 23:11   Link #383
7Th
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To a degree, yes: Simon failed. Completely. But that's part of the show as well, a subversion of the original themes.

Still, I kinda wanted her to live. Specially after how her portrayal in episode 27 made me like her a lot. How she confronted her demise with that warm smile on her face really broke my heart.

Last edited by 7Th; 2007-10-02 at 23:23.
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Old 2007-10-02, 23:19   Link #384
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by 7Th View Post
To a degree, yes: Simon failed. Completely. But that's part of the show as well, a subversion of the original themes.
Well, Simon doesn't believe he failed. And he doesn't care what other people think about that.
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Old 2007-10-02, 23:53   Link #385
juventas
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Geez, all this discussion on whether or not it was possible to save Nia. I think people are missing the point. Why did the creators feel the need to kill her off? Screw the "science" behind it. I am repeating some other people when I ask: Did her death make the show better? Did her death help humanity grow? Did her death make Simon a better person?

NO. Quite simply, it's trendy to kill off characters because of some odd perception that bittersweet or sad endings are inherently better pieces of writing. There was a point to The Grapes of Wrath having a sad ending. Holden Caulfield being a bitter SOB at the end of Catcher in Rye had a point. There is no point in Gurren Lagann arbitrarily killing off Nia.

And you can work out the "logic" of it afterwards.
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Old 2007-10-03, 00:02   Link #386
Aceywacey
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I gave the series a 9. Wouldve been 10 except Nia died. I agree with the others who didn't like it wither :/

It's just inconsistent with the themes of the show. There wasn't a good reason for her to die like the other tragic heroes (Kamina, Kittan etc). They had already won. There was no reason for her to die. Simon could've done something and made it reality.

It seems like they killed her off only as a way not to make it a clear happy ending. They wanted to f*ck with us at least a little bit.

But all my hope is not lost. From the prologue, maybe it turns out a new enemy appears (gread dimensional government). Simon is needed so he transforms himself young again, and transforms Boota to human form using spiral power, and they go off and kick ass. Maybe season 2?
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Old 2007-10-03, 00:08   Link #387
Anh_Minh
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I don't want Nia resurrected. I wouldn't even have minded Simon failing to save her. I mind that he didn't try.

I don't disagree with his choice of fighting the Anti-Spirals at the possible cost of Nia's life. But after it was over, why didn't he turn his energies, Spiral or otherwise, to saving her?

"There's nothing that can be done. She can't be saved. Let's let her die." That's the kind of reasoning that Rossiu made at his worst. Why should Simon get a pass?
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Old 2007-10-03, 00:45   Link #388
Malintex_Terek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juventas View Post
NO. Quite simply, it's trendy to kill off characters because of some odd perception that bittersweet or sad endings are inherently better pieces of writing. There was a point to The Grapes of Wrath having a sad ending. Holden Caulfield being a bitter SOB at the end of Catcher in Rye had a point. There is no point in Gurren Lagann arbitrarily killing off Nia.
The Grapes of Wrath and Catcher in the Rye had "good but sub-optimal" endings, not sad by any means. If you want a "bad" end, reach for Machiavelli's Mandragola or The Jungle, where if one thinks a little the "good end" turns out to be more hollow than a balloon.

Nia's death made Simon the typical Asian folk-hero, so it was a necessary step for him. It also liberate him from the shackles of being held down by a family and permits him to be Gar in the future.

Though I feel bad for Simon, Nia's death isn't even CLOSE to being as depressing as what was seen in Mahoromatic, given the context.

Frankly...I'm surprised there are more complaints about Nia and less about Garlock's leave of absence from the final episode. Aren't any of you curious about why that prologue, not to mention "Garlock's Theme" the Gurren Gang fanfare, were not included in the TV series/OST?

Last edited by Malintex_Terek; 2007-10-03 at 01:06.
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Old 2007-10-03, 00:47   Link #389
Wavedash
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I think everyone who dislikes Nia leaving is missing the point. The theme of the series has always been passion overcomes improbability, not impossibilities. It seems to me people are disagreeing because they have emotional stake in Nia; not a bad thing in itself, but taking it to the extreme of wanting story rewrites is not a fan's place.

If she had lived, I think the story would be far less epic. Recall a more modern example of myth- Lord of the Rings. The epic nature of the story is only emphasized by the fact that nothing of the old age can truly survive even though the forces of evil were defeated; the elves left, the wizards disappeared, and the Ringbearers soon followed them to the Undying Lands. If LOTR had ended with Sauron defeated and the elves populating the lands alongside the humans, would it seem like they had truly fought, or would it seem like the conflict was so small in nature that their lives could continue happily ever after?
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Old 2007-10-03, 00:58   Link #390
Flibble
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I thought Nia's death, was good...
That simon and nia knew the price of finishing the Anti-Spirals, the moment in lagann is very emotional and painful when it all finally clicks... They showed this through the characters in a great way...
Nia surviving as long as she did is streching things beyond what should be possible, and is in part what gurren lagann is about...
Nia is the final piece of anti-spral that withered away, i didnt see Nia vanishing as Bitter-Sweet, just sweet as it was done in such a nice way...
However...
What i could have done without is...
old yoko having an Angular Chin, just no...
Plain no...
Rossieu being the spitting image of his elder...
Random Wanderer Old Simon, although happy to see he has created, it seemed tragic... It definetly makes you feel like there'd be more to the story...

I would have prefered Old (or still young as lord Genome stayed) to have more of a life, be it wandering around in lagann with human boota helping people, or having a shack to watch over Kamina and Nia's graves...
Also... Simon, do not give Gimmy the core Drill _
You are Simon the Driller...

Tho even with these minor gripes, 10/10 a realy memorable unique and brilliant series with a top ending...
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Old 2007-10-03, 01:08   Link #391
Zalith
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I want Kamina back too. And Kittan, and everyone else, not JUST Nia. I wanted to bang my head against the wall when Kamina died, since the anime just wasn't the same with him. I guess his death made Simon toughen up though, since if Kamina lived on, Simon would always look up to him and probably wouldn't be as mature as he is now, not that I mind. KAMINAAA D:
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Old 2007-10-03, 01:14   Link #392
juventas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
The Grapes of Wrath and Catcher in the Rye had "good but sub-optimal" endings, not sad by any means. If you want a "bad" end, reach Machiavelli's Mandragola or The Jungle, where if one thinks a little the "good end" turns out to be more hollow than a balloon.
Like most things, it's all in perspective. I didn't think they were "good" endings, although the Grapes of Wrath certainly did have a tinge of hope and Holden had gained some minor level of maturity. They were definitely suboptimal and it got some sort of point across. And "The Jungle" had an okay ending considering Upton Sinclair was waving the flag of socialism at the time. It may have seemed hollow to you, but I'm pretty sure Sinclair wasn't equivocal about the ending. I haven't read Mandragola.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Nia's death made Simon the typical Asian folk-hero, so it was a necessary step for him. It also liberate him from the shackles of being held down by a family and permits him to be Gar in the future.
Well, I don't know much about Asian folklore, so maybe that's what they were going for. But c'mon... shackles of a family? Weak reason to kill off someone as big as Nia. Don't tell me you think having a family and being macho are mutually exclusive? Ok, I'll admit, it does seem a bit off when I think of my parents...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Though I feel bad for Simon, Nia's death isn't even CLOSE to being as depressing as what was seen in Mahoromatic, given the context.

Frankly...I'm surprised there are more complaints about Nia and less about Garlock's leave of absence from the final episode. Aren't any of you curious about why that prologue, not to mention "Garlock's Theme" the Gurren Gang fanfare, were not included in the TV series/OST?
I don't really care to compare Gurren Lagann to other series in this regard. Just because Jeffrey Dahmer cannabilized people doesn't make a simple knifing in the alley any less heinous. I'm fairly disappointed about the disparity between first and last episode, but I've accepted that someone changed their minds halfway through production. I rather like the optimistic and altruistic feel at the end and think it's just as appropriate as Simon kickng ass for all eternity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavedash
The theme of the series has always been passion overcomes improbability, not impossibilities.
Ummm... what's all that talk about 0% probabilities then? Sounds like a synonym for "impossibility."
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Old 2007-10-03, 01:49   Link #393
jaziek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavedash
The theme of the series has always been passion overcomes improbability, not impossibilities.
Ummm... what's all that talk about 0% probabilities then? Sounds like a synonym for "impossibility."
I'm pretty sure at one point lord genome calculates the success of an attack at 0% and they pull it off anyway.
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Old 2007-10-03, 01:51   Link #394
Master Chibi
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Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Nia's death made Simon the typical Asian folk-hero, so it was a necessary step for him. It also liberate him from the shackles of being held down by a family and permits him to be Gar in the future.
1. If he wanted to be liberated from being held down by a family why the HELL did he propose to the woman?

2.. Absolutely noone has been able to sit down and prove her death was absolutely neccessary. Noone. You're all pulling these threads that the show weaved and going:

"Oh he's not a god, he can't bring her back, oh he'd have to bring everyone else back."

"Too much spiral power, if he did it the anti-spirals would have won."

"It helped him become a true hero, to grow and mature."

BULLSHIT.

Quote:
Why did the creators feel the need to kill her off? Screw the "science" behind it. I am repeating some other people when I ask: Did her death make the show better? Did her death help humanity grow? Did her death make Simon a better person?

NO. Quite simply, it's trendy to kill off characters because of some odd perception that bittersweet or sad endings are inherently better pieces of writing. There was a point to The Grapes of Wrath having a sad ending. Holden Caulfield being a bitter SOB at the end of Catcher in Rye had a point. There is no point in Gurren Lagann arbitrarily killing off Nia.
Exactly.

Things would have been absolutely, perfectly fine with a happy ending, but for some unexplicable reason Gainax had to be a bunch of FUCKS (again) and go for an ending with some KICK.

Bah.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure at one point lord genome calculates the success of an attack at 0% and they pull it off anyway.
Doesn't he also make a comment that bringing up such things wasn't worth it when in their company to begin with?
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Old 2007-10-03, 02:00   Link #395
Altima of the Gates
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10/10 from me.

Though I have to say, i read all the pages of this thread and the passionate opinions from both sides of the discussion going on are valid to me.

I would not have minded an ending either way, with Nia or without Nia.
Though as it was said earlier, we don't really know if they did try a few methods of turning Nia human. They could have very well done it and failed.

However, you guys are really giving Simon a rough deal because it "looks" like he didn't try, he very well could have and failed. If there is anything that would have finished him at that point after Nia disappeared, its someone saying that he failed Nia. Really kinda cruel guys. But I can see its mostly cause you love the guy so much

But it is at least heartwarming to see people who still believe in miracles,dreams, and overcoming adversity, I really love anime that emphasized these traits.
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Old 2007-10-03, 02:01   Link #396
Master Chibi
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Originally Posted by jaziek View Post
I'm pretty sure at one point lord genome calculates the success of an attack at 0% and they pull it off anyway.




;p
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Old 2007-10-03, 02:25   Link #397
Darklord_bg
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Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
1. If he wanted to be liberated from being held down by a family why the HELL did he propose to the woman?

2.. Absolutely noone has been able to sit down and prove her death was absolutely neccessary. Noone. You're all pulling these threads that the show weaved and going:

"Oh he's not a god, he can't bring her back, oh he'd have to bring everyone else back."

"Too much spiral power, if he did it the anti-spirals would have won."

"It helped him become a true hero, to grow and mature."

BULLSHIT.
I don't know what more you expect from people to say regarding the necessity of Nia's death. Those three are all good reasons. If they are not good enough for you, then probably no reason will be good enough. Whatever argument people come up with, you can always find a rebuttal. That's the way it is. You either like the ending or you don't. Why don't you give it a rest already. Chances that someone will come up with a really compelling reason for the necessity of Nia's death that will make you change your mind are pretty slim.

Also, none of the deaths was really absolutely necessary. They could have kept Kamina alive and let him live through the war and end up with Yoko in the end. Of course, that would be a different show, but it would still be plausible. It's just the way that Gainax decided to tell the story. Some people will like it, others will not. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think Kittan's death was absolutely necessary either, but I accepted it.

I know Nia did not get a heroic death like Kamina or Kittan, but she's a girl after all. I think that quiet, graceful death was much more fitting for her character.
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Old 2007-10-03, 02:43   Link #398
musashiken
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Well first thing, I'm not one of those who diss Simon. My complaint is at the very basic level, I'm bashing Gainax.
But I have to admit that Gainax has overdone themselves this time, because they actually made an ending that many people accepted this time round. But not without doing their signature fucking with the ending. It makes me laugh that people are applauding the ending without even knowing that Gainax pulled off their signature plot move : Killing off the female lead at the last minute.

Hell I'm not going to bother with discussing about the plot anymore since it's pretty pointless but instead the problem with Gainax's fucking vision.

I said this before and I'll say it again: Gainax always fuck the ending up by doing something nasty to the female lead/leads. And they have at least a 90% track record. Don't believe me? Go check it up yourself. Almost every major anime they do involves a main female dying multiple times, getting mind-fucked, being miserable, getting blown up, getting shafted etc. And you know what? The main guy (whenever there is one) always live to tell the tale. Oh sure, you may argue that I'm simplifying things, but hey every plot starts with a simple motive. For Gainax, it's taking a guy and a girl, screwing around with the girl and glorifying the guy with his actions, and of course weaving a complex plot around them.

For 26 and a half episodes of TTGL, I actually felt that Gainax might let Nia live, but no they just had to fucking write her off the script right at the end. But this time, they had the budget and advanced planning to actually pull it off without stepping on too many toes. I can bet with you that Rebuild of Evangelion is going to be the way Gainax visualized with sufficient budget and planning. And that means we get to see all of them die again but the last battle will be so awesomegasmic that must of us will not even give a damn. And yeah Shinji is going to fucking live to see the day. Again.
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Old 2007-10-03, 02:52   Link #399
Morganna's_Child
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Gainax...
the important chara always "gone" like Kamina, and Nia...
by the way, is anyone have Nia and/or Simon picture / gallery or GIF for avatar ?
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Old 2007-10-03, 03:05   Link #400
Malintex_Terek
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Originally Posted by juventas View Post
And "The Jungle" had an okay ending considering Upton Sinclair was waving the flag of socialism at the time. It may have seemed hollow to you, but I'm pretty sure Sinclair wasn't equivocal about the ending. I haven't read Mandragola.
Ah, then my point was missed.

Mandragola is a comedy and everything looks fine in the ending, but closer inspection reveals violence in the near future following it. The Jungle was simmilar, IMO - it ended with Jurgis screaming socialism would prevail, but historically we know that particular election ended in failure for the socialists. It felt tragic for me, hopless. As you pointed out, there was still hope in Grapes and Catcher.

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Originally Posted by juventas View Post
Well, I don't know much about Asian folklore, so maybe that's what they were going for.
I don't either, but someone in the spoiler topic brought up the archetype and I asked a professor at my school if any archetypes exist in Western fiction with a simmilar bearing to Harlock, Simon, and Kenshiro. There don't, Western folks like gods and demi-gods and kings and lords as their protagonists, superior people with superior problems. Characters of that tragic nature are more common in Asian lore.

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Originally Posted by juventas View Post
But c'mon... shackles of a family? Weak reason to kill off someone as big as Nia. Don't tell me you think having a family and being macho are mutually exclusive? Ok, I'll admit, it does seem a bit off when I think of my parents...
It sounds callous, so the natural impulse is to say "lol no", but I'm serious. If Kenshiro, Harlock, and Simon had families, they wouldn't have been able to have more adventures - their "tragedy" allows us to be entertained down the line (how morbid!).

I really can't think of a hero off of the top of my head who managed a family and yet still had wacky adventures. The obvious answer is Goku, but if one looks carefully, Goku was never around for Goten, and was only around for less than half of Gohan's lifetime. He died and stayed in the afterlife for a year, came back and stayed on Earth for a bunch of months, five minutes on Namek and many years on an un-named planet, many years dead after the Cell Saga.

Most of Goku's adventures took place while he was away from his family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juventas View Post
Ummm... what's all that talk about 0% probabilities then? Sounds like a synonym for "impossibility."
Nothing is impossible, the point was something was so improbable it wouldn't happen, and the hero's job was to turn that small chance into a success. That's what Kittan did - he did something that should have been impossible, namely, fusing King Kittan with a drill and using it (not to mention becoming a Spiral Evoluder in that one moment!), but because he did it, it evidently wasn't impossible.

Simon's line was just a more sincere way of saying he'll overcome the odds, no matter what it takes.

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Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
1. If he wanted to be liberated from being held down by a family why the HELL did he propose to the woman?
Wait, what? I'm talking about Gainax, good sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
2.. Absolutely noone has been able to sit down and prove her death was absolutely neccessary. Noone.
Firstly, it's "no one" and secondly, on what grounds? Logically, it makes sense given my hand analogy, thematically there's a point, but there's also thematic support for it as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
"Oh he's not a god, he can't bring her back, oh he'd have to bring everyone else back."

"Too much spiral power, if he did it the anti-spirals would have won."
I doubt many people are arguing those points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
"It helped him become a true hero, to grow and mature."
Nia dying didn't make Simon any less than a hero, but it did show his maturity when we compare Nia's death to Kamina. Simon wallowed in a pit of despair for a week and three days after Kamina died, he lived a quiet, heartbroken but content twenty years after Nia did, without fluster. That's development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
Things would have been absolutely, perfectly fine with a happy ending, but for some unexplicable reason Gainax had to be a bunch of FUCKS (again) and go for an ending with some KICK.
This isn't your typical "LOL GAINAX" ending, it's a very good ending a lot of people are having trouble accepting. Besides, like I pointed out with Yotsuba, if there was a happy ending people would just go, "that's it?" and complain about that.

We should all be thankful there was no mindfudge this time around.
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