Angel Beats! - Episode 13 (END) Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

And of course after promoting an "unnecessary" alternative and get everyone to believe him; he backed off and tried to stay behind. That's where all the hatred are. While everyone believed him that if they move on, they will meet again, he did not actually believe that. Think of a leader who run away from battle after he let everyone believe that their only chance of surviving is marching forward

What makes you say that?

[AkasuraBoshi]

Angel beats ending was satisfactory in my opinion. VERY touching and the extra scene after the credits filled my question on what happened after. you are right that ononashi was maybe kinda blinded by love and acted selfish lol. but it was too cute to hate him. and the heart thing really surprised me.True, i wanted to see what the other members regreted but honestly i guess it was right to just leave the most important characters. and the hypnotists leaving really touched meh and made me sad . i just couldnt comprehend that he disapered.Along with everyone else. well my overrall opinion is, some things left out but the ending was DEFINITYLY good and satisfactory

[AkasuraBoshi]

and also everyone already explained this already but im just saying it again on this new page, THAT MANY SIDE CHARACTERS BACKROUNDS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN fit into 13 eps. if they tried their would be NO storyline. the ending was perfect

[eiyuu99]

A trigger is needed for Kanade's "moving on" phase.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Haak

What makes you say that?

Because he was in a real panic when Kanade refused to stay behind, even desperately tried to grab whatever of her as she disappeared.

You should say "see you later" (or whatever along that line) to someone who you will meet later, right.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Because he was in a real panic when Kanade refused to stay behind, even desperately tried to grab whatever of her as she disappeared.

You should say "see you later" (or whatever along that line) to someone who you will meet later, right.

he just realized that his purpose for being there was to set her free.
he wanted her to stay with him, but instead, he learned that he was always meant to be the one to let her go.
its not simply a case of her saying "no" and fading away
its a case of him realizing that it was up to him to set her free, by losing her.
he could deny her that, and keep her to himself, but that would mean it would not be her choice.

and in the end, he let her go, despite how much it hurt him to do so.
he was only selfish to a point
asking her to stay with him is one thing, but forcing her to do so was unacceptable.
which is why he let her go.

[Arbitres]

Hmmm... Shouldn't this be brought to Otonashi's thread rather then Episode 13? Just a suggestion.

Anyways, a real scumbag would have FORCED Kanade to stay. Yuzuru didn't, so all he was was a tad selfish. Which, throughout the entire show he avoided doing rather well. No one is perfect, even in the Purgatory.

That is my thought on the matter.

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by Komari

I did hear something about how Jun originally asked for 13 episodes, got carried away in writing the story, then had to compress the story into thirteen 21 minute installments, but that's probably scratch.

It's something like this:

1. Maeda, Aniplex and PA Works agreed on a 13-episode series (apparently, Maeda had a case of writer's block at that time).
2. Then, he suddenly got hit by inspiration, got carried away writing the story, and ended up writing a tale too expansive to fit into a mere 13 episodes. This is the reason why the only scenes left in the anime were the bare essentials leading to the end/climax.

But don't worry, the cut script is being published as supplementary media in this mixed media project, namely the novel (Track Zero; prequel), manga (Heaven's Door; will apparently cover everything, from Track Zero to the end of the anime) and drama CDs. So, if you want to know the full story of Angel Beats, it is suggested that you read the prequel (only 1 more chapter remains untranslated -- the extra that came with the book released last July 23), follow the manga (which, at the pace it's going, will probably reach the end of the anime in about 3-4 years), and listen to the drama CDs.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

As i mentioned before, truely the whole shadow thing is just a poor excuse to justify Otonashi 's actions to get everyone disappearing (after Yui's incident).

Not really. Chaa even said that the only thing that was preventing him from moving on was his obligation to support the SSS. Did they stop trying to disappear after the shadows went away? No. Also, Otonashi's [not so] top secret plan never went unnoticed. After all, Yuri has her personal spy satellite (Yusa) on the whole group 24/7. Even then, she didn't interfere. And in the end, it is up to the target to decide if he/she wants to disappear or not. How can I say this? Because Yuri briefs all new recruits on the DOs and DON'Ts of not wanting to disappear. Yui never rejected Otonashi's advances, and she even felt down when she wasn't able to overcome her regret.

The main point of the Shadows was to show Yuri that complaining to and rebelling against God is useless. Nothing can draw Him out, thus His existence in that world cannot be proven. Remember Yuri's original goal? Create a ruckus big enough such that God will have to intervene (try to lure out God). Nothing short of total world deletion would be a greater ruckus than the forced purge/reformat that the Shadows were doing. Thus, the rise of the Shadows and the AI/Contruct's words regarding God cemented the notion of an unprovable God (and reinforced Naoi's notion of anyone being capable of taking God's seat in that world), depriving the SSS of its main motivation to fight (you can't prove God exists, yet you also can't prove he doesn't exist -- agnosticism if you may). I believe this is also among the minor messages of the show.

Oh, and just in case there are some who still didn't get how Kanade arrived before Otonashi, here's a nice little chart which goes with the warped time explanation (reversed to eliminate the need for 3d figures):

Spoiler for saving space:

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Not really. Chaa even said that the only thing that was preventing him from moving on was his obligation to support the SSS. Did they stop trying to disappear after the shadows went away? No. Also, Otonashi's [not so] top secret plan never went unnoticed. After all, Yuri has her personal spy satellite (Yusa) on the whole group 24/7. Even then, she didn't interfere. And in the end, it is up to the target to decide if he/she wants to disappear or not. How can I say this? Because Yuri briefs all new recruits on the DOs and DON'Ts of not wanting to disappear. Yui never rejected Otonashi's advances, and she even felt down when she wasn't able to overcome her regret.

The main point of the Shadows was to show Yuri that complaining to and rebelling against God is useless. Nothing can draw Him out, thus His existence in that world cannot be proven. Remember Yuri's original goal? Create a ruckus big enough such that God will have to intervene (try to lure out God). Nothing short of total world deletion would be a greater ruckus than the forced purge/reformat that the Shadows were doing. Thus, the rise of the Shadows and the AI/Contruct's words regarding God cemented the notion of an unprovable God (and reinforced Naoi's notion of anyone being capable of taking God's seat in that world), depriving the SSS of its main motivation to fight (you can't prove God exists, yet you also can't prove he doesn't exist -- agnosticism if you may). I believe this is also among the minor messages of the show.

I think you missed my point there.

The shadow and its ability to turn people to NPCS (which lead to everyone moving on) is simply an excuse to make Otonashi's ideology seems to be more justified, and he therefore can act his Key male-lead archetype to kick everyone out and save the day.
They could have a bunches of robot/aliens/cats/monsters that started to attack the SSS, lead to Yuri's own investigation and have the same ending. After all Yuri is not so irresponsible that she will just let the attacks going on without tracking the root. They don't even need any attacks, simply a clue that Yuri thought can get her to God (but actually leads to the history of Programmer) would be enough

But then we will have Yuri officially meeting up with people to decide for the SSS to move on altogether or stay together (or whatever) after she dealt with her regret. And then we won't need the amateur Otonashi to "heroically" tell people run for their life because the 'ZOMG shadows gonna eat them up'.

You understand what i mean? In short, Yuri (if she want to) can persuade people to move on because she had their trusts and always placed her life before them. Newcomer -Otonashi can't really do that, so a fake disaster have to be up just so he can play the big role to decide everyone's future

[Marcus H.]

Yuri can, but she never did anything. Her attitude somewhat attracted new members like bees to nectar. But in the end, she needed to teach the SSS a lesson on deciding for oneself, an important decision since the SSS are used to follow orders, and deciding on their own suddenly becomes a matter of moving on or becoming an NPC.

And I'm sorry, but I can't accept your "breaking the Fourth Wall" rant on the shadows.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Yuri can, but she never did anything. Her attitude somewhat attracted new members like bees to nectar. But in the end, she needed to teach the SSS a lesson on deciding for oneself, an important decision since the SSS are used to follow orders, and deciding on their own suddenly becomes a matter of moving on or becoming an NPC.

That's what i want to see also... except instead of teaching, i will say "discussing over"

And I'm sorry, but I can't accept your "breaking the Fourth Wall" rant on the shadows.

What are you talking about? How can i break the fourth wall if i'm obviously not from the anime?

I simply criticized the unnecessary forced plot device

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Yuri (if she want to) can persuade people to move on because she had their trusts and always placed her life before them. Newcomer -Otonashi can't really do that, so a fake disaster have to be up just so he can play the big role to decide everyone's future

Basically, why X instead of Y? If that's the way you think, then you can take that as an excuse for anything that happens in any story. And I don't think it was seen as a noble cause at all. Rewatch Ep11. The SSS were strongly against him, but when Hinata and Yuri explained they all calmed down. Remember, she gave them the whole night to contemplate on their choice: fulfill your regrets and disappear, or fight with me. The main cast chose both -- fight with Yuri, then disappear together afterwards.

Besides, the Shadows are justified by Angel Player. What would a program that can digitally alter the world be making then? How would the Programmer escape insanity if he doesn't turn himself into an NPC? How would he prevent the bug from happening again if he didn't create a system to prevent and take care of it? And aside from what I have already stated, we also got first hand experience of the direness of the Love bug, and an insight into the life of an NPC, among other things. How would you convincingly show that Z is wrong when there are no dangers or disadvantages associated with it?

Or, were you perhaps hoping that the show would have continued on Otonashi's disappear 1-2 people per episode plan? Were you hoping that there would be some drama from that? I don't see the potential. Yuri would just tell them to do what they like, and it would be up to the individual SSS members to decide. This time though, there would be no way to know about the Programmer and the concept of God.

[Marcus H.]

Maybe I'm not using the right terms well. But anyway, I can't accept that what Otonashi did was plainly bad writing. At least present ONLY in-universe arguments for that.

If one would always blame a character's unfavorable action to "bad writing", then what would be left of fiction?

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

You understand what i mean? In short, Yuri (if she want to) can persuade people to move on because she had their trusts and always placed her life before them. Newcomer -Otonashi can't really do that, so a fake disaster have to be up just so he can play the big role to decide everyone's future

The issue I have with the event wasn't so much the fake disaster but how it was handled. There was no foreshadowing and it was a very forced event. Yes they needed some stupid disaster because they ran out of time. They certainly didn't have enough time to handle everybody like Yui and needed to get rid of everybody in a quick manner for a conclusion. There was really poor planning in regards to the narrative and where they wanted to go with the plot.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

The issue I have with the event wasn't so much the fake disaster but how it was handled. There was no foreshadowing and it was a very forced event. Yes they needed some stupid disaster because they ran out of time. They certainly didn't have enough time to handle everybody like Yui and needed to get rid of everybody in a quick manner for a conclusion. There was really poor planning in regards to the narrative and where they wanted to go with the plot.

Yeah that..

If they only showed pieces and pieces of information about the shadow, or maybe about a SSS turned to NPC several episodes back. Then it would be a much more nature development

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Basically, why X instead of Y? If that's the way you think, then you can take that as an excuse for anything that happens in any story. And I don't think it was seen as a noble cause at all. Rewatch Ep11. The SSS were strongly against him, but when Hinata and Yuri explained they all calmed down. Remember, she gave them the whole night to contemplate on their choice: fulfill your regrets and disappear, or fight with me. The main cast chose both -- fight with Yuri, then disappear together afterwards.

Well, yeah. But so is every forced plot device...
The point is: other than Hinata, both Yuri as leader and the other SSS as a mass surely won't simply take that option if they are not terrified by the shadow. About "noble" cause, you know the cliche screen where everyone go to meet their savior and send him farewell before the big battle, then all side characters joined him in the last minute as the fight go on? I seriously want to punch my screen there because it's too forced
They did not even meet (or wait to meet) Yuri, the person that they looked up to all the time.... It's so inconsistent there

Besides, the Shadows are justified by Angel Player. What would a program that can digitally alter the world be making then? How would the Programmer escape insanity if he doesn't turn himself into an NPC? How would he prevent the bug from happening again if he didn't create a system to prevent and take care of it? And aside from what I have already stated, we also got first hand experience of the direness of the Love bug, and an insight into the life of an NPC, among other things. How would you convincingly show that Z is wrong when there are no dangers or disadvantages associated with it?

Or, were you perhaps hoping that the show would have continued on Otonashi's disappear 1-2 people per episode plan? Were you hoping that there would be some drama from that? I don't see the potential. Yuri would just tell them to do what they like, and it would be up to the individual SSS members to decide. This time though, there would be no way to know about the Programmer and the concept of God.

For your answers:
- They can make iron man, since everything go up and down to iron (it's more of less a joke here btw...)
- Hibernated somewhere or disappeared to somewhere or unknown. It's a very common plot for people that never appear again on screen
- A notification system (book, compact disk, that interface droid...). Or a system that let the whole school moving on instead of turning to NPCs. Or simply there's no such system. He's the only human among the NPC anyway, so Yuri must be the 1st generation since his
- Love bug is kinda lame because we had shippings everywhere, and the one which triggered it is Yuri x KanadeSSS.
- I don't think it's counted as the life of the NPCs since Yuri there clearly was not one

Disadvantages and harms? Of a forced plot device? I thought they all have the same problems. They made Otonashi looks like a Mary Sue. They cause inconsistencies in storyline and characters. They make the ending unsatisfied...etc...

A better ending is having all that minus the black shadows and Otonashi's lame plan. We concentrate more on Yuri:
a) interacting with Kanade (not because i shipped them, for your information ), learning more about what the Angel knew,
b) tracking down the source of programmer, found out a huge information about this world from previous generation, maybe while Kanede acted as guardian
c) coming back without regrets, persuading everyone to move on and have a big graduation party with actual solving of relationships (since the SSS don't look like they have much regrets anyway)
With more time, i probably can write a better c. They can stay here forever and discover the wonder of the world. It's fun to reach beyond real world and human imagination.

[Haak]

I'm not sure whether the whole shadow thing was just a poor excuse to justify Otonashi 's ideology or not, but I do think it was a poor exucse to get everyone to disappear faster, and a convenient plot device to help Yuri find her resolution, which is once again the result of cramming too much material into too little time.

[Kudryavka]

Does anyone have any theories as to why Kanade chose to be the Angel? I thought it was because she had a will to police others in her life, and that was her unfufilled wish upon death, but it seems that that isn't the case. If I'm getting this right, she had a wish to thank her heart donor, and wandered into this world of purgatory.

So, any theories?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Komari

Does anyone have any theories as to why Kanade chose to be the Angel? I thought it was because she had a will to police others in her life, and that was her unfufilled wish upon death, but it seems that that isn't the case. If I'm getting this right, she had a wish to thank her heart donor, and wandered into this world of purgatory.

So, any theories?

I know I'm just being picky now, but like others have said, it's not an actual "purgatory" because a purgatory is somewhere you go after death to face your sins, not regrets.

As for the theories, I'm pretty certain Kanade had actually died and what we saw at the end of the episode was her reincarnation. So she ended up here, and just decided to help others while she was waiting. No idealistic beliefs or ulterior motives. She just wanted to help. But Yuri's antagonism and her Poor Communication Kills meant things got a little out of hand, like a cycle of revenge that gets more and more intense.

Atleast, that's what I think happened.

[mratomic]

I'm think a nebulous ending is what you get when you commit 13 episodes to " an idea for a story", rather than a complete story.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Komari

Does anyone have any theories as to why Kanade chose to be the Angel? I thought it was because she had a will to police others in her life, and that was her unfufilled wish upon death, but it seems that that isn't the case. If I'm getting this right, she had a wish to thank her heart donor, and wandered into this world of purgatory.

So, any theories?

she was stuck there and was unable to move on.
she ended up trying to help others move on even though she herself was unable to do so (keep in mind who's heart was beating in her chest).
but her inability to communicate properly with others ended up leading yuri and crew to misunderstand what she was all about.