Fate/Zero (Light Novel)

[Keroko]

This page notes something about a Fate/Zero CD, anyone know what that's all about?

[LostHanyou]

This is really good... Too bad it's taking forever to be fully translated.

I almost like Fate/Zero more than Fate/Stay Night.

[Wigwams]

yeah... hope they are still working on translating it.

and yeah i also like fate zero. i think if they made a decent anime adaptation of this, i might like it way more than FSN.

this one is way more action packed, and there are way more elements to the whole holy grail war. its like their battle are levels above of the one shirou took part in.

[mAc Chaos]

That's because they're all pro's, unlike in Fate where everyone was just a kid.

[Haak]

It's taken me months and i still haven't got past the first book. Reading on a computer is just not going for me.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Haak

It's taken me months and i still haven't got past the first book. Reading on a computer is just not going for me.

I'm going to get an eReader for Christmas so I can read this and other light novel translations.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Fate/Zero is long as hell took me about a month read 3 volumes and the interlude in vol 4 but overall I'd probably consider better than Fate/Stay night as a whole. However in comparison to individual individual it fares quite differently.

In comparison it fate it is pretty much out right superior, in terms of depth of plot, characterization, structure etc it has fate beat. Only in romance would I consider fate to be slightly but that was mostly because Fate/Zero did really focus on romance.

UBW route is the only route I consider to be equal roughly in the standard of writing with Fate/zero. It has an equally plot as Fate/Zero and is very well thought out and structured story. None of the other routes are quite as consistent or complete and Archer's answer was the perfect way to finish the route.

It's characterization however differs vastly from F/Z. The fate zero characters in general have a lot more depth and progression than their F/SN counterparts mostly due to the difference in length however, UBW characterization of Emiya Shirou I personally consider to be better than all of the very well characterized characters in F/Z individually.

None of them even kiritsugu is has quite the same amount of character depth nor are as well thought out to the same degree as Shirou. All it takes in analysis of the different parts of shirou's personality, his past, his ideals, his future and even his abilities to see the depth of symbolism and re-occuring themes through Shirou's character. UBW is the route, that flesh's out disects and breaks down Shirou's character the most.

UBW much like F/Z did not have much of a focus on romance and so they are roughly the same in this regard.

Finally we have HF the route that has the most consistent themes, plot lines and background in regards to F/Z. On the whole I consider F/Z to be better written than F/SN as most of it's characters to me appeared to me to have more depth and progression in comparison to their HF counterparts, the story seems to a lot more consistent and better structured as well as the overall plot seeming to be much deeper and complex in comparison to HF.

[LostHanyou]

I actually like HF more than Fate/Zero, and probably about equal to the UBW route.

I also found Fate/Zero to be really short. I read the first three translated volumes in two days when I had nothing to do... Really it seemed to me like one route in the VN was longer than the light novel's, or I just enjoyed fate/zero enough to read it that quickly.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

I actually like HF more than Fate/Zero, and probably about equal to the UBW route.

I also found Fate/Zero to be really short. I read the first three translated volumes in two days when I had nothing to do... Really it seemed to me like one route in the VN was longer than the light novel's, or I just enjoyed fate/zero enough to read it that quickly.

How can read it that fast? Seriously every 100 pages or so I got bored and then ended up stopping for a few days or a week then will myself back to reading it. It's good but far too slow and a bit too much time was spent on Caster and his master.

Anyway the main reason why I put HF below it is because the story is mostly because of two things. The story didn't seem to have much depth and the ending was dire. I mean really what was the moral of the story. If you sacrifice yourself and the lives of hundreds maybe millions people you may just save the person you love?

It's supposed to be an answer to how Shirou should live his life but no logical person would choose that path and I'm not even sure UBW or Fate Shirou would choose that path. Not that people would sacrifice their lives for someone they love, let alone the lives of the entire human race and stake it all on a very small possibility.

Then you have the true ending. What point exactly did it have, outside of oh this story is very dark and depressing, let's put in a happy ending just for the sake of it. It was the complete opposite of the general mood and style of the route and ruined any philosophical depth HF had.

Fate/Zero posed many questions about humanity and how much of it would be needed to sacrificed in order for a human to transcend it and embody their ideal. These are questions you can apply to real life, I doubt many would even bother to try applying HF message to real life.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

The story didn't seem to have much depth

Lol, what?

the ending was dire.

Again, lol, what?

I mean really what was the moral of the story. If you sacrifice yourself and the lives of hundreds maybe millions people you may just save the person you love?

The moral of the story is that it is simply not possible to care for everyone equally, and if you try, you end up caring for no-one. Being a hero does not mean sacrificing the lives of those who you love at the first sign of danger, and if you try to live like that, you'll just break.

It's supposed to be an answer to how Shirou should live his life but no logical person would choose that path

Rubbish. No logical person would just murder innocent people in cold blood "just in case". Shirou does not have the right to decide that Sakura is 'expendable', and nor does Rin. She has as much right to life as everyone else, and she has as much right to be saved as everyone else.

I'm not even sure UBW or Fate Shirou would choose that path.

I don't think they would have sacrificed Sakura, actually. Shirou's ideal is to save everyone, and that means not murdering innocents at the first sign that they might be dangerous. Plus, Shirou in Fate spares Ilya and Shinji, both of whom are potentially as dangerous as Sakura was in HF (in Shinji's case, more so, since he had Rider), and who were actually responsible for their actions.

Not that people would sacrifice their lives for someone they love, let alone the lives of the entire human race and stake it all on a very small possibility.

But Shirou did not do that. He attempted to save the whole world, he just wanted to save Sakura too. Plus, saving the

Then you have the true ending. What point exactly did it have, outside of oh this story is very dark and depressing, let's put in a happy ending just for the sake of it.

Well, not throughly fucking over Sakura in the only route where she might have a chance to be happy, for a start.

It was the complete opposite of the general mood and style of the route and ruined any philosophical depth HF had.

Bull shit. The mood of the route is not "life sucks", it was "if you fight hard enough, you can earn your happy ending". The route does have darkness in it, but the point is that, by helping and saving Sakura, Shirou also saves himself. The Normal end doesn't have that.

These are questions you can apply to real life, I doubt many would even bother to try applying HF message to real life.

What, that you shouldn't murder the person you love in cold blood "just in case"? I think that's a pretty good message to apply to real life, actually....

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Lol, what?



Again, lol, what?



The moral of the story is that it is simply not possible to care for everyone equally, and if you try, you end up caring for no-one. Being a hero does not mean sacrificing the lives of those who you love at the first sign of danger, and if you try to live like that, you'll just break.


Rubbish. No logical person would just murder innocent people in cold blood "just in case". Shirou does not have the right to decide that Sakura is 'expendable', and nor does Rin. She has as much right to life as everyone else, and she has as much right to be saved as everyone else.



I don't think they would have sacrificed Sakura, actually. Shirou's ideal is to save everyone, and that means not murdering innocents at the first sign that they might be dangerous. Plus, Shirou in Fate spares Ilya and Shinji, both of whom are potentially as dangerous as Sakura was in HF (in Shinji's case, more so, since he had Rider), and who were actually responsible for their actions.



But Shirou did not do that. He attempted to save the whole world, he just wanted to save Sakura too. Plus, saving the



Well, not throughly fucking over Sakura in the only route where she might have a chance to be happy, for a start.



Bull shit. The mood of the route is not "life sucks", it was "if you fight hard enough, you can earn your happy ending". The route does have darkness in it, but the point is that, by helping and saving Sakura, Shirou also saves himself. The Normal end doesn't have that.



What, that you shouldn't murder the person you love in cold blood "just in case"? I think that's a pretty good message to apply to real life, actually....

I'm sorry but your just being naive. Your trying to paint it that Shirou was trying to save everyone including Sakura which is absolutely false. If that was what he was trying to do he would have followed Archer's advice of continuing to try to save Sakura but absolutely making sure that Sakura did not kill anyone and that if she did he would be the person that died closely followed by Sakura. Shirou didn't even attempt to do this, even after he found out she was the cause of the hundreds of deaths in the town. He knew she had killed and knew that there was a very high chance that she would kill again plus her mere existence risked apocalypse. He chose Sakura over the lives of everyone it's as simple as that. He made it more than obvious that he would NEVER give up on Sakura regardless of the consequences hence why he would keep on chasing even if he knew it was impossible.

Anyway rofl at the "earn your happy ending". Shirou did nothing that actually earned his happy ending, Ilya made the sacrifice, he had very little impact over the whole event. She essentially bailed his ass out after he had sacrificed his life and the lives of hundreds of others to save someone that would end up spending the rest of their life waiting for his return. If Shirou wanted to save everyone that was close to him he wouldn't of let Ilya do it but no he placed happiness with sakura over even her life. Why was he willing to kill himself for Sakura but not Ilya?

I'll end it with this, let me ask you would you be willing to sacrifice your life and those of almost everyone around you for the one you love. I'm not talking about simply being unable to kill Sakura and talking about litterally killing yourself rapidly losing your mind in an attempt to save her as well as allowing her to continue killing hundreds. No tell me would you honestly do that? That is what I meant by no logical person would choose that path.

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I'm sorry but your just being naive. Your trying to paint it that Shirou was trying to save everyone including Sakura which is absolutely false. If that was what he was trying to do he would have followed Archer's advice of continuing to try to save Sakura but absolutely making sure that Sakura did not kill anyone and that if she did he would be the person that died closely followed by Sakura. Shirou didn't even attempt to do this, even after he found out she was the cause of the hundreds of deaths in the town. He knew she had killed and knew that there was a very high chance that she would kill again plus her mere existence risked apocalypse. He chose Sakura over the lives of everyone it's as simple as that. He made it more than obvious that he would NEVER give up on Sakura regardless of the consequences hence why he would keep on chasing even if he knew it was impossible.

Anyway rofl at the "earn your happy ending". Shirou did nothing that actually earned his happy ending, Ilya made the sacrifice, he had very little impact over the whole event. She essentially bailed his ass out after he had sacrificed his life and the lives of hundreds of others to save someone that would end up spending the rest of their life waiting for his return. If Shirou wanted to save everyone that was close to him he wouldn't of let Ilya do it but no he placed happiness with sakura over even her life. Why was he willing to kill himself for Sakura but not Ilya?

I'll end it with this, let me ask you would you be willing to sacrifice your life and those of almost everyone around you for the one you love. I'm not talking about simply being unable to kill Sakura and talking about litterally killing yourself rapidly losing your mind in an attempt to save her as well as allowing her to continue killing hundreds. No tell me would you honestly do that? That is what I meant by no logical person would choose that path.

Actually there was a point where Shirou thought Sakura really couldn't be saved and he'd have to kill her, but through most of the route while the READER was aware that Sakura was killing people Shirou was not. He had no reason to kill her for most of the route, since all he knew was that she might subconsciously kill people later on, he did not know she was already doing it and the number was steadily increasing.

Really? He fought Dark Berserker, Saber Alter (with Rider, or by himself through the normal bad end where he kills himself to beat her), Kirei... He does everything anyone possibly could do in his situation. By the end of the route his mind is completely destroyed or at 20% left, he forgets names, memories, and people. His body is utterly destroyed and he would have died completely if it weren't for Touko. Yet he didn't earn his happy ending?
He didn't let Ilya do it. He tried to stop her, but couldn't. Even if he could she would die shortly after anyway, probably all the while extremely depressed.

So Shirou didn't do that. During one of the bad ends he establishes that Sakura is beyond saving. At that point he would have killed her if he could. For most of the route he was making decisions based on limited knowledge, of course while trying his hardest to allow Sakura to live.
I won't answer your question because it's completely taking out the complexity of the HF scenario and dumbing it down to a simple "save one or lots of others" scenario when it isn't at all.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I'm sorry but your just being naive. Your trying to paint it that Shirou was trying to save everyone including Sakura which is absolutely false.

Because he was. Unfortunately, that turned out not to be possible, but he still tried to minimise the casualties as far as possible (for instance, he and Rin went after the shadow even though they knew they couldn't fight it).

If that was what he was trying to do he would have followed Archer's advice of continuing to try to save Sakura but absolutely making sure that Sakura did not kill anyone and that if she did he would be the person that died closely followed by Sakura. Shirou didn't even attempt to do this, even after he found out she was the cause of the hundreds of deaths in the town.

Yes, he did. But, when he came to kill Sakura, he couldn't go through with it, which, given her situation and how damn sympathetic she is, is entirely reasonable. He is human, after all.

He knew she had killed and knew that there was a very high chance that she would kill again plus her mere existence risked apocalypse. He chose Sakura over the lives of everyone it's as simple as that. He made it more than obvious that he would NEVER give up on Sakura regardless of the consequences hence why he would keep on chasing even if he knew it was impossible.

No, he chose to protect both.

Anyway rofl at the "earn your happy ending". Shirou did nothing that actually earned his happy ending, Ilya made the sacrifice, he had very little impact over the whole event.

Apart from saving Sakura and the world?

She essentially bailed his ass out after he had sacrificed his life and the lives of hundreds of others to save someone that would end up spending the rest of their life waiting for his return.

Shirou never sacrificed the lives of anyone. From the point where he refused to kill Sakura (which, BTW, is a Bad End and would likely result in the destruction of the world via Dark Sakura), she killed no-one except Kotomine, Shinji and Zouken.

If Shirou wanted to save everyone that was close to him he wouldn't of let Ilya do it but no he placed happiness with sakura over even her life. Why was he willing to kill himself for Sakura but not Ilya?

He wasn't. He was calling out to her and telling her not to save him.

I'll end it with this, let me ask you would you be willing to sacrifice your life and those of almost everyone around you for the one you love. I'm not talking about simply being unable to kill Sakura and talking about litterally killing yourself rapidly losing your mind in an attempt to save her as well as allowing her to continue killing hundreds. No tell me would you honestly do that? That is what I meant by no logical person would choose that path.

Except that, in actively trying to save Sakura (and killing himself in the process), he was also trying to save the world. The only options he had were to go all-out to save her, to actively kill her (which you were excluding) or to just do nothing and let the world be destroyed along with her. So, given that you're willing to accept that it is reasonable for him to not want to kill Sakura, what Shirou did was undoubtedly the 'right' choice.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Because he was. Unfortunately, that turned out not to be possible, but he still tried to minimise the casualties as far as possible (for instance, he and Rin went after the shadow even though they knew they couldn't fight it).



Yes, he did. But, when he came to kill Sakura, he couldn't go through with it, which, given her situation and how damn sympathetic she is, is entirely reasonable. He is human, after all.



No, he chose to protect both.



Apart from saving Sakura and the world?



Shirou never sacrificed the lives of anyone. From the point where he refused to kill Sakura (which, BTW, is a Bad End and would likely result in the destruction of the world via Dark Sakura), she killed no-one except Kotomine, Shinji and Zouken.



He wasn't. He was calling out to her and telling her not to save him.



Except that, in actively trying to save Sakura (and killing himself in the process), he was also trying to save the world. The only options he had were to go all-out to save her, to actively kill her (which you were excluding) or to just do nothing and let the world be destroyed along with her. So, given that you're willing to accept that it is reasonable for him to not want to kill Sakura, what Shirou did was undoubtedly the 'right' choice.

I'm sorry but your blatantly looking through it with rose tinted glasses. Sakura was killing hundreds of people and was going to kill more. Her very existence was risking humanities existence. How the hell in any way shape or form is keeping her alive "protecting both"? Protecting both would have been preventing Sakura from killing full stop or making sure that the only person who is killed is Shirou shortly followed by her death if he is unable to stop her from killing. Shirou never bothered to do any of that.

Seriously, I'm not even sure their are even many fans of HF that are naive enough to believe that Shirou's actions were for the benefit of other people in anyway shape or form. Your completely disregarding what was even said in VN and placing in your own sugar coated version of events. What part Shirou choosing between his ideal and Sakura did you not understand. Shirou knew that he could nt save Sakura without sacrificing many more lives and risking humanities destruction. That was the whole point of HF. Of course he ended up preventing the world's destruction but only after he had saved Sakura and the death toll was very high. She was his main priority there is no question about that.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Sakura was killing hundreds of people and was going to kill more.

Which Shirou did not know, most of the way through. And, when he did, she resolved to avoid it and then turned Dark, resulting in him having to stop her. And, if he has to do that, then he may as well do it by bringing her back to normal rather than by attempting to murder her.

Her very existence was risking humanities existence.

Bollocks. At no point did Shirou know that, until it was too late.

How the hell in any way shape or form is keeping her alive "protecting both"? Protecting both would have been preventing Sakura from killing full stop or making sure that the only person who is killed is Shirou shortly followed by her death if he is unable to stop her from killing. Shirou never bothered to do any of that.

What? Killing her is sure as hell not "protecting both", and he did try to prevent her from killing, but it's pretty damn hard to do that when she's actually doing it subconsciously through a familiar.

Shirou did try to do what you're saying she should have done, but she was acting in a way that he simply could not have predicted.

Seriously, I'm not even sure their are even many fans of HF that are naive enough to believe that Shirou's actions were for the benefit of other people in anyway shape or form.

Well, he certainly wasn't acting for his own benefit. I simply cannot accept that it can be considered wrong not to murder an innocent girl, like you seem to be saying. And, other than that, he made every effort to protect innocents, such as trying to defeat Zouken and the shadow (which, BTW, had nothing to do with saving Sakura).

What part Shirou choosing between his ideal and Sakura did you not understand.

Because his 'ideal' (in the broken form that he was talking about) doesn't actually make sense. On the other hand, if he wants to save everyone, then he has to give Sakura a chance rather than killing her at the first sign of her being a danger, as if she were just some rabid dog rather than a living, thinking human.

Shirou knew that he could nt save Sakura without sacrificing many more lives and risking humanities destruction.

Which decision are you talking about? In MoS, he had no such knowledge, and when he attempted to kill her the second time, he was simply unable to go through with it.

That was the whole point of HF. Of course he ended up preventing the world's destruction but only after he had saved Sakura and the death toll was very high.

Except that, once Sakura turned Dark, the two were essentially the same thing. If he saves her, he saves the world. If he fails, then the world goes with her.

She was his main priority there is no question about that.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that he didn't care about others.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Which Shirou did not know, most of the way through. And, when he did, she resolved to avoid it and then turned Dark, resulting in him having to stop her. And, if he has to do that, then he may as well do it by bringing her back to normal rather than by attempting to murder her.

Rose tinted sun glasses did you ignore the second time Shirou was given the choice to kill Sakura. He knew full well then that keeping her alive would result in more deaths and that it risked the entire human race, he had an entire monologue about it. Denile it's no longer a river egypt anymore.

I'm sorry but the writer could not have made it anymore blatant, seriously what the hell story were you reading? Just give it up you can't say Shirou was trying to save everyone, that was not how the story portrayed him at any point in HF. You can continue in your delusions but the fact remains he was placing Sakura far above everyone else in importance. This was made obvious, time and time and time again. It's an inescapable fact unless you completely ignore the story.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Rose tinted sun glasses did you ignore the second time Shirou was given the choice to kill Sakura. He knew full well then that keeping her alive would result in more deaths and that it risked the entire human race, he had an entire monologue about it. Denile it's no longer a river egypt anymore.

Yes, he did, and he therefore decided that he had to kill Sakura. However, it's one thing to decide that the girl you love is a danger and needs to be killed, and another thing entirely to actually do it, especially when they've suffered so much in their life and have finally found some happiness.

I'm sorry but the writer could not have made it anymore blatant, seriously what the hell story were you reading? Just give it up you can't say Shirou was trying to save everyone, that was not how the story portrayed him at any point in HF. You can continue in your delusions but the fact remains he was placing Sakura far above everyone else in importance. This was made obvious, time and time and time again. It's an inescapable fact unless you completely ignore the story.

He placed Sakura first, yes, but he still wanted to save everyone else too. Hell, he sacrificed his own life to do so (when Sakura was already free), even though he wanted nothing more than to spend the few precious hours or days that he had left with the girl that he loved more than anything.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Rose tinted sun glasses did you ignore the second time Shirou was given the choice to kill Sakura. He knew full well then that keeping her alive would result in more deaths and that it risked the entire human race, he had an entire monologue about it. Denile it's no longer a river egypt anymore.

I'm sorry but the writer could not have made it anymore blatant, seriously what the hell story were you reading? Just give it up you can't say Shirou was trying to save everyone, that was not how the story portrayed him at any point in HF. You can continue in your delusions but the fact remains he was placing Sakura far above everyone else in importance. This was made obvious, time and time and time again. It's an inescapable fact unless you completely ignore the story.

Now listen here, we have already been over this. Shirou never stopped caring for the people, he just wasn't willing to sacrifice Sakura because there was still hope. I have no idea what complete and utter BS you had for this story was, but "becoming a machine and sacrificing people you could rightly have saved" (and Sakura was most certainly saveable, along with the people) is not what that ideal encompasses. A possessed person is purified, not expunged, you cannot use our normal view of morality here, and you most certainly don't seem to understand human beings. Again, Sakura was very much saveable in the story, the answer was always kept from the heroes (I do not beleive for a damn minute Kotomine's crap about he doing everything he could, because he said he allowed Sakura to become a monster later on, from the surgery, he set things in motion to take advantage of a victim, as he always does).

Sakura was always saveable, and if Rin would have sat down for more than a few seconds and though of other things rather than preserving her sister's "sanctity", they more than likely would have thought of something, or would have called Kirei out on his double talk. There are necessary sacrifices, and there is letting yourself become the victim of a chessmaster's trolling. Killing Sakura would have done just that. Sheesh, can you be more blind? Or did you not see the villains pushing him to kill Sakura at every turn, a grin on their faces. Shirou did well not to fall completely for that, and Rin practically danced in the palmed of their hands.

As for Fate/zero, the point was that Kiritsugu sacrificed that which he loved the most for the ideal, and he most certainly did not want Shirou to go that route. Seeing MoS Shirou would break the poor guy's heart into pieces.

For all people that laud the Masters in Fate/zero for being more skilled and intelligent, they were trolled the most by Kotomine by far compared to the younger generation. I could write a paper on just how incredibly stupid most of the Masters and Servants were.

[Arbitres]

So we're debating Fate/stay night in Fate/Zero?

Cool, thread derailment.

For all people that laud the Masters in Fate/zero for being more skilled and intelligent, they were trolled the most by Kotomine by far compared to the younger generation. I could write a paper on just how incredibly stupid most of the Masters and Servants were.

Skilled they are, intelligent most of them are not. Regardless of their intelligence you to realize a good deal of them were skilled.

Of course being skilled matters like sand in water when you don't think.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Now listen here, we have already been over this. Shirou never stopped caring for the people, he just wasn't willing to sacrifice Sakura because there was still hope..

I'll stop you here as this is your one fatal misunderstanding. Hope had NOTHING to do with Shirou's reason for saving Sakura, absolutely nothing at all, nadda, zilch, not a blip on his screen. Shirou was never EVER going to give up on saving Sakura even if it was impossible. Rin asked him several times what he would do if he discovered that Sakura was not saveable and every time he made it obvious that he would never stop regardless of the consequences. It is the defining difference between him and rin

The mere fact you even believed that hope factored into Shirou's reasons means that you don't understand him at all. He is the type of person that will chase after something even if he knows full well that it is impossible. It's why he continued to do the high jump even though he knew it was impossile and it's why he continued to follow his ideal even though he knew it was impossible.

This single thing is his sole problem and it's why when Shirou decided that he would save Sakura at all costs he knew that he would have to give up on his ideal and ws the reason that he knew he was no better than Kotomine when they had their final battle. To ignore the fact that once Shirou has set his mind on something that he would never give up is to ignore a vital part of his character/