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Old 2017-03-22, 05:15   Link #41
frivolity
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The truth decay preceded Trump and was already in place during the GWB and Obama administrations. Trump, unfortunately, has a looser mouth than his predecessors, and runs a looser ship than them as well.
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Old 2017-03-22, 05:16   Link #42
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
In the end, it is (hopefully) history that will decide if this was a good or bad administration for the United States.
History already decided how to view the voters of the United States, regardless.

What the government decide to do in the next four years is one thing. But the reasons for the voters to pick their government is already history and is a matter of public record.
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Old 2017-03-22, 05:45   Link #43
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It will take longer than four or five months to get an actual historical decision about what the voters in 2016 mean in the long run. What the votes are is historical record. What is means and how it will be viewed will take a lot longer than five months. Especially since the result of the election are not even at 100 days of President Trump in office. We are over a month away from that still (April 29, 2017, if you wanted to know).
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Old 2017-03-22, 06:10   Link #44
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It will take longer than four or five months to get an actual historical decision about what the voters in 2016 mean in the long run. What the votes are is historical record. What is means and how it will be viewed will take a lot longer than five months. Especially since the result of the election are not even at 100 days of President Trump in office. We are over a month away from that still (April 29, 2017, if you wanted to know).
No, you don't get it. What the voters wanted when they vote, is already well known. We even have posts somewhere in an old thread here, where a voter said he voted the way he did because he assumed that the President wouldn't need to actually do anything at all. That the vice president would run the country.
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Old 2017-03-22, 09:26   Link #45
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
You're obviously speaking for yourself.

His behavior is not phasing his supporters in any way. 80% of Republican favors him highly and thinks he is doing a great job. Let's not forget 62.7 million people voted for him, fully knowing what they're getting in their president. Your concern are not equally shared. If they were, GOP would not be in control of the House, Senate, Potus and soon to be, the Scotus.

And no, it's not a joke thread. This is in place to discuss many of his tweets and the subject he highlights in his own colorful and hilarious fashion.
If so, let's not forget the other 65 million people who didn't vote for him. Fully know what they would get, and tried to prevent.
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Old 2017-03-22, 09:47   Link #46
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The full political spectrum, for Americans at the least, is probably not that well represented on this forum. This is a anime board after all.
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Old 2017-03-22, 10:40   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
If so, let's not forget the other 65 million people who didn't vote for him. Fully know what they would get, and tried to prevent.
And yet, Trump is the president while GOP gain more seats in the House and took control of the Senate.
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Old 2017-03-22, 12:03   Link #48
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Does that not seem like the failure of the system (electoral collage/gerrymandering) rather than the will of the people to you?

he has a 39% approval rate, but supposedly most GOPs approve of him

what does this tell you? That's he's only a President for the GOP?
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Old 2017-03-22, 12:24   Link #49
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
And yet, Trump is the president while GOP gain more seats in the House and took control of the Senate.
Almost as if elections are gerrymandered and don't actually represent the will of the people.

This was discussed in the previous thread, where we also railed against the Electoral College and how it makes certain people's voices/votes worth more than others solely because of where they happen to live.
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Old 2017-03-22, 12:38   Link #50
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Pretty sure the idea behind the EC system to ensure the less populated states don't feel threatened by the more populated ones.
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Old 2017-03-22, 12:53   Link #51
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...and also to ensure that only a 2 party system is viable..
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Old 2017-03-22, 13:11   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Draco Spirit View Post
Pretty sure the idea behind the EC system to ensure the less populated states don't feel threatened by the more populated ones.
That's all well and good, except now you have the opposite problem.
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Old 2017-03-22, 15:54   Link #53
Draco Spirit
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Well to grossly grossly simplify it and keep away from other political debates...Lets say for sake of example you've got 6 regions.

A) Hates moe, loves cat girls and cheese. Makes Apples
B) Hates Tsunderes and loves oranges. Creates Moe merchandise.
C) Thinks everything should be Moe and somewhat dislikes apples
D) Hates Moe and loves apples. Creates Cheese
E) Hates Moe, loves Tsunderes and creates Cheese
F) Hates Moe, loves catgirls and create catgirls merchandise

Now all regions equal being Pro-Moe isn't likely to get you into power. However if you go by population and state B or C have a considerably larger combined population than the others, then being Pro-Moe can be election material!

President Billybob runs on a Moe based campaign, promising to push Moe into overdrive, pleasing region C (the moementalists ) and getting pragmatic votes from region B (they want to make money)... and pissing everyone else off.

Now this sort of thing is hard to avoid in politics (one persons love is always another persons hate) but regions separated by geography are more likely to be aligned differently on issues to other regions, as local history (being founded by a religious group or being heavily involved in a certain industry for example) is likely to influence views.

On a related note these kind of issues are why I think it always better to keep political power more closely aligned with local interests then trying to do broad policy over a large and diverse area. As trying to please more and more group with one answer tends to leads to upset.
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Old 2017-03-22, 16:05   Link #54
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You seem to be operating on the assumption that the number of regions being pleased is more important than the number of people being pleased, which is odd to me. Your example is how the process works in a direct democracy, without explaining why that's bad.
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Old 2017-03-22, 16:11   Link #55
frivolity
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Relevant article: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...e-nothing-free

Democratic politics is riven by a central conflict: the conflict between truth and desire. People generally want things; they want government to give them those things. Conservatives aren’t wrong when they say they can’t compete with Santa Claus — it’s far harder to draw voters to your side by telling them they won’t get something than by telling them that they’ll get real estate on the moon.

But thankfully, there is another human tendency that helps counteract the desire to receive from the government: the natural outrage at being lied to. Human beings aren’t fond of being promised the moon and then delivered moldy cheese.

This means that voters will support politicians who lie credibly, then turn radically on those politicians when those lies don’t work out. The result: a wildly variant politics in which nobody ever tells the truth — because telling the truth means avoiding the promises that get you elected.

The Founders laid out a way of dealing with this conflict between wanting to be lied to and hating to be lied to: They attempted to minimize the benefit of lying for politicians. Limited government made lying less worthwhile. Who would believe that a politician would use the government to provide “free” things when the government itself was banned from providing free things?

But with the rise of progressive government beginning in the early 20th century, the central conflict at the root of democracy took hold. For generations, conservatives struggled with the temptation to simply lie for political convenience and pay the cost later. Some, like Nixon, campaigned on big-government promises and paid for it with big-government failures. Others, like Reagan, campaigned on small-government truths and benefited from keeping their promises.

Now, however, the struggle seems to be over.

President Trump represents the notion, ascendant in Republican circles, that the only way to win elections is to fib to the American people. Power is its own justification, and there is no better way to demonstrate power than by promulgating a big lie. That fits with Trump’s view of the world, in which success is its own virtue.

Trump spent most of his adulthood attempting to win friends and admirers in the upper-crust circles of Manhattan; he struggled with the fact that he was treated as a nouveau riche vulgarian. His solution: Embrace the vulgarity, brag about victories he never won, and turn the art of the sell into his persona. For Trump, the greatest sin isn’t lying or cheating: It’s losing. That’s why he spends an inordinate amount of verbiage calling his opponents “losers” or “failing,” as though victory and defeat amount to some sort of moral status.

Americans can re-enshrine the Founders’ bargain by limiting government to minimize the impact of lying politicians. After eight years of President Obama, many Republicans were prepared to embrace Trump’s ethos. That became particularly apparent after Mitt Romney’s 2012 defeat, which Republicans attributed not to his overly cerebral civility but to his fundamental decency. The theory became prevalent in conservative circles that Romney had lost not only because he wouldn’t fight hard enough but also because he wouldn’t fight dirty enough. Establishment conservatives conflated civility and decency; anti-establishment conservatives made the same mistake. Instead of stating that a less civil but similarly decent candidate could have won in 2012, anti-establishment conservatives concluded that it would take an uncivil, indecent person to defeat Democrats.

And that, of course, was the ultimate purpose: defeating Democrats. Not truth, not a enacting a conservative agenda, but defeating Democrats: the lesser of two evils. Sure, Trump would make big-government promises, sound like a statist on health care and trade and economics. But he’d win, don’t you see? And his dishonesty would all be worthwhile, since he’d then pursue policies conservatives would like.

Trump’s victory rewarded that theory. But the theory is untenable.

It’s untenable because conservatives don’t seek the same policy results that leftists do. That means that Trump’s promises are bound to come up empty. And that means that Trump and the Republicans have placed themselves back on the horns of an ancient dilemma: They can lie to the people by promising them free things, but those things won’t materialize.

That, after all, is exactly what happened to President Obama. Obama remained personally popular for his entire presidency. But his chief achievements are on the verge of destruction because he lied: He told people they could have everything, and then he delivered less than that. He told Americans that they could keep their doctors if they liked them; they couldn’t. He told Americans that they would not see rising premiums; they did. He said that he’d be fiscally responsible, but at the same time, he was blowing out the budget. His lies caught up with him.

And if Republicans lie — as they have, in making guarantees about health care that mirror Democrats’ lies — they’ll pay the price, too.

There are only two directions from here: up and down.

Up: Americans realize that politicians who guarantee them free things are lying to them, and they react by re-enshrining the Founders’ bargain, limiting government to minimize the impact of lying politicians.

Down: Americans distrust everyone in politics but simultaneously embrace the lies of their own side, justifying tissue-thin conspiracy theories that put the other side at a disadvantage, breaking down the social fabric and the political discourse until all faith in the system disappears completely.

The choice is up to us. But whether we like it or not, truth will have its day. We can either acknowledge and celebrate the fact that power isn’t worth sacrificing truth, or we can lose both power and truth in the worshipful pursuit of power alone.
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Old 2017-03-22, 16:23   Link #56
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Regional divisions can more destructive towards harmony then divisions spread across the population, or to put it another way it better to have 1/10 unhappy over ten regions than 1 region that's 10/10 unhappy.
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Old 2017-03-22, 16:32   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Draco Spirit View Post
Regional divisions can more destructive towards harmony then divisions spread across the population, or to put it another way it better to have 1/10 unhappy over ten regions than 1 region that's 10/10 unhappy.
Except that's not the argument. The argument is less populated states having stronger voting power than more populated states. The actual result here would be more like 7/10 unhappy and 3/10 happy, and those 3 are only happy because they were given more voting power because "reasons".
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Old 2017-03-22, 19:56   Link #58
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Frivolity you seem to fail to understand that you don't represent the modern GOP base these days. Free market capitalists have been overtaken by economic populist and nationalist voters in poorer districts. Your old school small government conservative ideology is part of a shrinking sect in the Republican establishment. That is why people like Paul Ryan have to stand up there and lie about things like ACHA since they know what they're really selling is ideologically lost on a majority of the population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Those countless experts don't outweigh the sheer number of voters who have given GOP the majority in congress and the presidency to Trump. As I said, you ARE speaking for yourself where you see partisan politics while someone else with a different set of perspective thinks GOP is doing exactly what their respective voters sent them to do.
I quite literally explained why I am not just speaking for myself and you decide to go off on a tangent about support from the GOP base. That's fine that his supporters apparently like him, but also it means very little to my point which is credibility in the political world. Trump has lied on such an unprecedented level and doubled down when he's been proven false over and over again on even the most stupid and asinine issues. This is dangerous, particularly in times of national crisis. It is simply not normal and don't pretend it is business as usual.
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Old 2017-03-22, 22:21   Link #59
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Aren't we straying away from the main topic of this thread?
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Old 2017-03-23, 02:25   Link #60
Ithekro
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Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
Aren't we straying away from the main topic of this thread?
Would you expect anything less?
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