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Old 2018-11-08, 06:45   Link #81
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
https://twitter.com/aabramson/status...26374976962560

"Pelosi says that WHEN democrats win they will strive for bipartisanship. “We have to try,” she says, citing the founding fathers"

Glad to see Dems havent't learned a single f*cking thing!
Good lord. I believe this makes her literally insane. You tried something for 10 years and it didn't work, it isn't going to work now. This is no different than the GOP insisting on trickle down economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coded321 View Post
One way to look at it, the dems are trying to stop the polarization, stop the divide. It won't be good for this nation in the long run if either political party continues to move further and further into their respective extremes.
Capitulating those who consider you an enemy and want you dead isn't a good way to stop polarization. They literally don't think anyone who isn't a republican is even human.

This is literally what caused the democrats to lose Congress back in 2010. Acting like republicans will govern in good faith, only to either not get anything passed or have the few things passed be completely gutted when that didn't have to be the case. It caused extreme apathy, which continued until 2018. If they continue this course from 2018-2020, expect Trump to win re-election and republicans to regain Congress because people will stop caring under the assumption that the "opposition" won't actually "oppose".

Quote:
Originally Posted by coded321 View Post
Even though a Democrat controlled house will now provide a check on trump, the house now gives trump a clear, solid enemy through which he can confront and place all the blame on.
As if he wasn't blaming Democrats for everything before, with his base believing it and eating it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I guess Democrats still care about "they go low we go high" optics.
Where as Trump does the opposite and has to project strength and aggression all the time
Aggression, yes. Strength, no. He projects nothing but weakness to anyone who isn't a sycophant.
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Old 2018-11-08, 07:28   Link #82
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I'm with coded321 on this, America MUST find a bipartisan (although I'd prefer having more than two parties) solution if it wants to stay a global player. Yes I'm aware that this hasn't been realistic and won't be for a long time and no I don't know how to get there either but it's either that or continuing a dead lock that gets nothing done ever.

Having either party in singular possession of power is definitely not the solution. At least not a democratic one.
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Old 2018-11-08, 09:37   Link #83
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We definitely don't need to be more divided. We don't need another revolution (despite what Thomas Jefferson might think), nor a civil war. We need to be a country that works. Even if its shaky and works from many voices, many nations, and many states....it still needs to work.
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Old 2018-11-08, 18:16   Link #84
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The past 10 years has shown the GOP has no intention of working together. If they refuse, the DNC shouldn't water down its own message and goals to try to appease those who will never be appeased. That's how you get apathy.
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Old 2018-11-08, 19:51   Link #85
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https://twitter.com/marcorubio/statu...96874577657856

No seriously guys! These are totally the guys with which bipartisanship is possible! Really!
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Old 2018-11-08, 20:39   Link #86
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We had bipartisanship in the past, because we were under illusion that everyone was adhering to the gentlemen's conduct.
We believed no one would go so low. We believed that there's always a valid reason why the government does things.

That illusion has been lifted

There's also a great cultural divide happening right now in regards to the "American Dream"
The typical interpretation is "if you work hard, you will find success in America"

This, over time have been interpreted as "Rich and powerful people got to where they are because they worked much harder than everyone else. They did everything right. They earned everything"
The younger generation in particular are having none of that.
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Last edited by Key Board; 2018-11-08 at 20:54.
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Old 2018-11-08, 22:17   Link #87
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Problem is with Trump around, all the moderate and libertarian leaning Republicans have been decimated. . You basically can't criticize Trump and not have him excommunicate you. As a result, we see the less hardcore Republicans losing ground and unfortunately those are falling first to the Democrats.... what's left is the ones that are pandering to nativism or have to burrow underground to avoid offending the God King.

Trump has succeeded 100% in co-opting the party. Guy's like 70-something; is not like he gives a shit about what happens next. But in any case, the GOP sold its sold to this kind of populism a while back. There's no turning back, and honestly if they die, they can also thank Trump.

Basically, as long as he's still in office, there is no chance of cooperation.
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Old 2018-11-08, 22:22   Link #88
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Trump is just a symptom, though. Those tens of millions of people aren't just going to change their ideology once he's no longer president.
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Old 2018-11-08, 23:24   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The past 10 years has shown the GOP has no intention of working together. If they refuse, the DNC shouldn't water down its own message and goals to try to appease those who will never be appeased. That's how you get apathy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
https://twitter.com/marcorubio/statu...96874577657856

No seriously guys! These are totally the guys with which bipartisanship is possible! Really!
its not a matter of idealism that we try to strive for bipartisanship. for the future of this nation, bipartisanship is a necessity. without bipartisanship, we have seen both parties steadily move into their respective extremes. as such, it will be bad for everyone if control of the government constantly changes between two extremes. imagine if the dems managed to retake the white house and congress in 2020 and reversed everything trump did. this in turn will be reversed in time when republicans eventually retake the white house. america will stagnate, progression on all important social and economic issues will stop and even retrogress. the divide will only worsen until we have a cold war within our own country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Problem is with Trump around, all the moderate and libertarian leaning Republicans have been decimated.
Basically, as long as he's still in office, there is no chance of cooperation.
another reason why the dems wil at least try to strive for bipartisanship. there are a significant number of moderate republicans who are disgusted with what trump has done to the republican party. but as archon as explained, these moderates have been forced out, replaced by hardcore cronies. if the dems are going to prevent trump's second presidential term, bipartisanship is necessary. the dems need to gain the support of moderate republicans and independents to stop trump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Trump is just a symptom, though. Those tens of millions of people aren't just going to change their ideology once he's no longer president.
not all of trump's voters truly believes in the crap that trump spouts on a daily basis. he's brainwashed into believing that no matter what he says, only he has their best interests at heart. that's why he's spent the last two years pandering to them. and with the presidency, trump has become more than a symptom, he's become a disease. with his presidency, he's forced out moderate, dissenting republicans and officials and replaced them yes men. trump knows that political divide and polarization helped him get into office. that's why he's worked to widen that divide ever since. that is another reason why the dems need to try to heal that divide.
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Old 2018-11-09, 00:08   Link #90
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That's not what I have seen
What I have seen is many right-wingers actually agree with Trump.
They just don't like how overt he is about it, and how he is being distracted with personal issues.

A lot of them will still vote along party lines.
A literal Nazi won almost 60K votes this last election. A third of the vote.
Ted Cruz defended his seat. TedCruz, who nobody, not even Trump, likes.

You don't win elections by trying to reach the middle. You do it by energizing your own base.
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Old 2018-11-09, 01:32   Link #91
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I don't think you'll get bipartisanship by striving for bipartisanship. First the Democrats will have to demonstrate they have a spine. They will have to convince their base that voting for them matters, and the Republicans that they won't be bullied into going along with whatever they want. Again.
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Old 2018-11-09, 01:34   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't think you'll get bipartisanship by striving for bipartisanship. First the Democrats will have to demonstrate they have a spine. They will have to convince their base that voting for them matters, and the Republicans that they won't be bullied into going along with whatever they want. Again.
Any examples of how the Dems can display their peen... ah shoot...i meant to say spine.

And where is Valiant? He is due for an input.
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Old 2018-11-09, 01:40   Link #93
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Give the people that usually don't vote a reason to vote. Give those that usually have trouble getting to vote the ability to do so. Than you might seem something different. As it is now, its the same rough percentage of the country voting each time with fluctuations that change the results every two to eight years.
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Old 2018-11-09, 02:08   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Any examples of how the Dems can display their peen... ah shoot...i meant to say spine.

And where is Valiant? He is due for an input.
Vote "no" to whatever the Republicans propose. Block the government if need be. Don't be afraid to put the blame squarely on the other side. Insist the president was born in Kenya.
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Old 2018-11-09, 03:09   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Vote "no" to whatever the Republicans propose. Block the government if need be. Don't be afraid to put the blame squarely on the other side. Insist the president was born in Kenya.
Hah!

I don't know if the same strategy will give the Dems any better edge. I think their chances increase at retaking the senate in 20/20 if they keep reinforcing their healthcare message. At the same time, don't relegate the worries of the people on those border states by downplaying border security, illegal immigration and such.

Beto O'rourke is a perfect example of how the Dems will need to conduct themselves in these upcoming two years to do spectacularly in 2020.

Just by the virtue of probability, the Dems should get back the two lost seats in the senate in 2020. Dems also have a very good chance at taking the senate considering 20+ republican senator will be seeking reelection while only 11 seats held by the dems will be running as incumbent.

And to win the presidency..... the house can start going after Trump strategically and stealthily... or just by being a nuisance.... like publishing his tax record. And finally, by not forwarding Hilary (oh god, please go away) or Biden or any lawyer for a pornstar as candidate.
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Old 2018-11-09, 06:59   Link #96
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coded321 View Post
its not a matter of idealism that we try to strive for bipartisanship. for the future of this nation, bipartisanship is a necessity. without bipartisanship, we have seen both parties steadily move into their respective extremes.
BS. Democrats are barely left of center. Just because the GOP has gone so far to the right that they're knocking on fascism's door doesn't mean that the scale has to adjust with them.

Quote:
as such, it will be bad for everyone if control of the government constantly changes between two extremes.
The real world alternative you're suggesting though is "center-right" and "extreme-right". That's not acceptable.

Quote:
imagine if the dems managed to retake the white house and congress in 2020 and reversed everything trump did. this in turn will be reversed in time when republicans eventually retake the white house. america will stagnate, progression on all important social and economic issues will stop and even retrogress. the divide will only worsen until we have a cold war within our own country.
Stagnation is better than going in reverse.

Quote:
another reason why the dems wil at least try to strive for bipartisanship. there are a significant number of moderate republicans who are disgusted with what trump has done to the republican party. but as archon as explained, these moderates have been forced out, replaced by hardcore cronies. if the dems are going to prevent trump's second presidential term, bipartisanship is necessary. the dems need to gain the support of moderate republicans and independents to stop trump.
Tough. If they're disgusted by Trump, they can either vote democrat to send a message or not vote. Don't pull the democrats further to the right just to lose the progressive base.

Quote:
not all of trump's voters truly believes in the crap that trump spouts on a daily basis. he's brainwashed into believing that no matter what he says, only he has their best interests at heart. that's why he's spent the last two years pandering to them. and with the presidency, trump has become more than a symptom, he's become a disease. with his presidency, he's forced out moderate, dissenting republicans and officials and replaced them yes men. trump knows that political divide and polarization helped him get into office. that's why he's worked to widen that divide ever since. that is another reason why the dems need to try to heal that divide.
They vote for it, therefore they support and believe in it. That's literally what voting for someone means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't think you'll get bipartisanship by striving for bipartisanship. First the Democrats will have to demonstrate they have a spine. They will have to convince their base that voting for them matters, and the Republicans that they won't be bullied into going along with whatever they want. Again.
This. Trying to play nicey nice with the GOP will result in killing any anti-Trump energy that's been built up.
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Old 2018-11-09, 07:15   Link #97
Ithekro
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Trouble is...if the Democrats push too far towards the left, refuse to compromise, and the Republican continue to refuse to compromise, and the bottom of the economy gives out...there will be a war.

And unfortunately, the Republican voter base in more heavily armed than the Democratic voter base. And they have been preparing in case of either an ideology or race war since at least the first year of President Obama's administration.

And I have no idea what the military will do in its just a general revolution type deal with insurrections, protests, and random street to street fighting to clear out different gerrymandered regions of one party or the other. Or if people start taking the law into their own hands regarding immigration.

Frankly we don't want another civil war, revolutionary war, or a return to the violence of the 1960s.
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Old 2018-11-09, 09:19   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Trouble is...if the Democrats push too far towards the left, refuse to compromise, and the Republican continue to refuse to compromise, and the bottom of the economy gives out...there will be a war.

And unfortunately, the Republican voter base in more heavily armed than the Democratic voter base. And they have been preparing in case of either an ideology or race war since at least the first year of President Obama's administration.

And I have no idea what the military will do in its just a general revolution type deal with insurrections, protests, and random street to street fighting to clear out different gerrymandered regions of one party or the other. Or if people start taking the law into their own hands regarding immigration.

Frankly we don't want another civil war, revolutionary war, or a return to the violence of the 1960s.


Spoken like a true .001% of Trump supporter. This curious view has been around for few years which mostly been push-fed and catered to audience like yourself by the likes of Sean Hannity, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh and etc.

For at least six years of Obama's term the Republican party steadily shifted to the far right while did everything possible to obstruct any agenda set by Obama. As the GOP congress continued to obstruct and refused to compromise on anything for years, the Democratic base did not take up arms to enact another civil war. Now the GOP party is becoming a dangerous party as it is expelling or discouraging any moderate candidates. So why shouldn't the dems push more to the left?

Because the Dems should be afraid of agitating the GOP voter base? or because a typical GOP voter is probably heavily armed? And what stops a typical Democratic voter from acquiring a gun if he/she has civil war in mind.

I can't even stop myself from laughing as I'm typing all these stuff.....

A reenactment of the level of conflict seen in the Civil War or the Revolutionary war can't even equal to these very mild political discord we're currently seeing. I also strongly think you're due for your American History refresher course so you can revisit on why Civil War, Revolutionary war and the multi-cause behind 1960's decade-long protest and spike in violence happened.

If you still think a civil war is coming because the dems are not cooperating, ask yourself this...

Can you shoot your own family member because their political affiliation is different than yours? Did you know there are millions of household who have polar opposite political views?

Seriously dude, don't just blindly subscribe to opinions pushed by idiots who would say anything to garner an audience so they can generate ad money. The political divide in the US is nothing new. The division is simply amplified through many different platform that are now available to all kinds of layman. The days of select networks shoving down their own manufactured piece are long gone. A layman can now grab a microphone and a camera to say the things that need to be said to an audience who already align themselves with a certain set of views. And as long as these laymen are saying what their particular audience want to hear, they will continue to generate views/rating/likes which usually translate into money.

It takes a lot of terrible things to come together over a long period of time before a nation of people decide to engage into mutual destruction like that are seen in civil war.
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Old 2018-11-09, 12:04   Link #99
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I keep thinking about the craziness that politics today has become, and unfortunately I don't have any reference on the 1960's with Vietnam and the Civil Rights movement to guess which was worse. But if we keep saying that Trump is a symptom, then I have to ask... what the hell is the cause and if there's any chance of a cure?

For the cause, I think I can pin it down to a handful of things. Obviously, there's Fox News, but that's also the low-hanging fruit. I live in Upstate New York, or more specifically, the central part of New York state. This allows me to see two things. First, you have the issue of "everyone else not from New York assumes it's only NYC, the a bit of land and then Canada", so that's how New York stays extremely liberal. Which leads to the second part- being in Central New York (to be a bit more accurate, about an hour's drive east of Syracuse), more people are Republican and HATE NYC/Albany and Democratic policies. This ultimately leads to understanding the next part of Republican mindset: it's all about the taxes. Nevermind that taxes usually go towards (or are supposed to go towards) public works projects and make the community better; Republicans see the taxes in their paycheck and freak out about "The government is stealing MY hard-earned money!!!!!!"

That leads to the next hot issue for Republicans that I see: it's well-known that large cities attract immigrants. So not only do Republicans see their money being taken from them, see it it like a pseudo-Robin Hood situation: "The government is stealing MY money, and giving it to these damned immigrants who are taking JOBS that "native" (i.e. white people) Americans should have to make money!" Nevermind that the jobs that are being taken are menial ones that most people wouldn't want to work anyways; it's sill their money being taken and given to the (illegal or not; can't really comment on this one) immigrants.

And of course, you have the Gun Issue. But that issue is so insane that I'm not even going to attempt to tackle it, if at least because I don't have a horse in that race. Plus every time it gets brought up on this forum, the mods usually shut it down due to how polarizing it is.

The last bit that I see as a problem is now the Lack of Compromise, and I'm going to put this on the Millennials (even though I myself am one!). To me at least, it seems like the Dems, which are the side that most (though far from all) Millennials identify with, want a perfect world where people of all races, class, sex, etc. are equal and treated fairly. The catch is, we all call this a Utopia, and in Greek that means Nowhere, doesn't exist, and the very nature of humanity I believe means it cannot exist. Obviously Republicans say this view is complete bullshit... and then go on to say (at least, based on how I see it) Christians and White Men are meant to lead the nation and be the ones in power. My own view is that both sides are complete crap, and we need to find a middle ground, even if that means some people lose in the process (after all, that's what Compromise is). Yet both sides say it's all or nothing, and that's how we got to where we are today... and it's worst form is ultimately eradication of the one side (You know that Both Sides Are the same rhetoric? The Far Left view is that Republicans all need to permanently go away, even though the majority of Dems won't admit that view exists). It might be a Marvel Movie, but Thanos had the start of a good idea: there needs to be balance, with gains and losses on both sides.
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Last edited by Magin; 2018-11-09 at 12:26. Reason: Edited due to thoughts meandering; simplfied things
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Old 2018-11-09, 14:32   Link #100
Endscape
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I keep thinking about the craziness that politics today has become, and unfortunately I don't have any reference on the 1960's with Vietnam and the Civil Rights movement to guess which was worse. But if we keep saying that Trump is a symptom, then I have to ask... what the hell is the cause and if there's any chance of a cure?
The cause is Newt Gingrich.
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