[Manga] Naruto Chapter 644 Discussion Thread

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

I think I've stated this before but I'd love to read a more mature "Sienen"(if thats the right term) version of this story that doesn't follow this shounen law nonsense.

me too. i'd like to see a series similar to dragonball kai for naruto. about 200 episodes where there is no filler, all the good stuff is condensed into jam packed episodes and the story is written in a more adult/better way. perhaps one day...

just an idea I'm throwing out there, but as I mentioned in a recent post here, it would have been better for Pain to have won his fight vs. sage Naruto and taken the kyuubi. in addition to the tension it would have created with akatsuki possessing the kyuubi, it also would have made Kurama's turn more believable. if he was taken away from Naruto and possessed again by an awful ninja (Obito or Madara) then he would have yearned to be sealed back in Naruto (if he had to be sealed in anyone). so in this last battle, if Naruto were to gain him back somehow, then it would be pretty badass and make more sense that they would fight together. Just sayin...

[GDB]

You can't really complain about the story bending over backwards to make things work out for Naruto, and then say it would've been better if he survived the extraction process (supposed to be fatal) and get Kurama back "somehow" when we've yet to see any way for a beast to be properly taken back from the statue. It'd be the same thing, but in a different way.

[james0246]

^Kushina survived the process, so did Gaara (even if he briefly died). So, there was already precedent (well, Kushina was shown after the fact, but Kishimoto could have used the basic concept and then explained it using the Uzumaki clan).

[GDB]

No telling whether Kushina would've survived for long or if she was basically just running on fumes. Gaara, as you said, did die. And someone had to sacrifice themselves to bring him back, thus it wasn't really an option again.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Jehuty

So it just occurred to me.

With this blast, isn't Neji blasted to smithereens? I mean, he probably won't come back but... this would pretty much seal it lol unless he was edo tensei'd.

Dude... At this point, everybody gives much *ucks about him as they do for Yamato, the Snake girl (cannot remember her name ), and countless others.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

I thought it was absolute BS, especially the way various story elements conveniently bent over backwards to make things even remotely believable/excusable for Naruto to stand on equal footing with someone like that. I thought it was particularly annoying when Pein actually defeated him and decided to chat about philosophy.

I was hoping for him to drag Naruto back to the lair and extract the bijuu, so that Naruto would then fight without it. I don't like the idea of him borrowing the kyuubi's chakra and much rather the idea of sage mode. It seemed like he was moving away from using the Kyuubi at the time and looked like the story would go in this direction. I thought perhaps Naruto would have survived the extraction by using natures life force to hold on or something; but oh well "wishful thinking".

I didn't really see any problems with Pain talking with Naruto AFTER he defeated him. I mean, why not? He couldn't have prognosticated that Naruto would turn into a Six-Tails monster after he stabbed a girl that came out of nowhere. Hell, he couldn't have predicted that a girl would come out of nowhere to rescue him.

Nagato must have been thinking, "Finally, I have captured all of the Tailed Beasts. Now, since I have SO MUCH free time, I better talk to the Nine Tails about philosophy and ****."

Your second point would lead into an interesting, alternative storyline for Naruto if it happened.

Originally Posted by GDB

You can't really complain about the story bending over backwards to make things work out for Naruto, and then say it would've been better if he survived the extraction process (supposed to be fatal) and get Kurama back "somehow" when we've yet to see any way for a beast to be properly taken back from the statue. It'd be the same thing, but in a different way.

But the story then would overextended, wouldn't it?? I mean, we've been complaining how long this Fourth Great Ninja War's been lasting. I doubt we would be here to watch this then.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by GDB

You can't really complain about the story bending over backwards to make things work out for Naruto, and then say it would've been better if he survived the extraction process (supposed to be fatal) and get Kurama back "somehow" when we've yet to see any way for a beast to be properly taken back from the statue. It'd be the same thing, but in a different way.

what are you talking about? gaara had the ichibi, akatsuki took it from him and he is alive. case closed, end of story. if naruto had the kyuubi taken from him it would not be the least bit surprising for him to live through the process by whatever means kishimoto desired. he already established a precedent that a jinchuuriki didn't have to die (forever) by having a bijou extracted. tsunade could have gave her life for him for example. and yes, it would have made the series more palatable, more exciting, and more interesting for naruto to have to fight without the aid of the unstoppable kyuubi always at his side ready to save him whenever things get rough. the story concerning naruto would actually get suspenseful since he would finally have to do things on his own without kyuubi-godmode on and with real consequences like almost everyone else in the series

[Tchadnis]

i been reading the comment for the last few days and im still amaze , you guys really thing Kyuubi mode is a God mode like ability ?i mean , i dont see it that way(just a taste question i guess) , secondly , having Kurama taken from naruto would kill the whole thing why naruto is naruto , i mean come on , he been hated all his life because of Kurama unless you are a damm M that would want something that been hurting you for years back i dont see this happening.. and im talking about back then before the fight with pain when Kurama and Naruto were completed enemies ....
Certainly i dont argue the fact , that the story isn't as tense or dramatic and truly doesn't feel like a war since Naruto as gone into the battlefield , but let be real , if the story was called anything but Naruto i would also understand . All the complain about Naruto being overpowered for one time in his dam shinobi life, would understandable but in that case it not , we talking about baka-naruto , which for the whole naruto series only manage to know 2 techniques which he used over and over ... Shadow clones and Rasengan ... later on ok he learned Sage Mode , which isn't even something worth bringing up , he cant use it anyways he want , it not unlimited mod same for Kurama one , in fact both mode run out of steam , just Kurama take longer because he is a tailed beast with HUGE chakra pool, if we want to talk about a God damm overpowered character , let talk about Obito which straight after obtaining the Juubi could use ability like the So6P when before all he could do was phase through people..
Anyways to say , while i do agree with some people about the story not being as epic not dramatic and doesnt feel like a war , anyone that "think" Naruto is so OP should go back in time when Naruto was a lil coward, less powerful then his friend , more stupid and weaker then Sakura ..; etc etc . Naruto dream is to become Hogake , which isn't easy, on top he bragged about being a Hokage more powerful then previous Hokage , so i'm sorry but it about time he bring out some damm Hokage feat , i don't count the one against pain as one he was unconscious most of the fight

PS: i would nearly hate to read over 600 chapter of something if the damm MC doesnt get some power after a few years...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

what are you talking about? gaara had the ichibi, akatsuki took it from him and he is alive. case closed, end of story.

Except for the part of the story where the old lady had to give her life with a special jutsu that she developed herself (and thus it's unlikely anyone else knows it) in order to revive him.

if naruto had the kyuubi taken from him it would not be the least bit surprising for him to live through the process by whatever means kishimoto desired.

...this just adds to my argument that you're complaining about the universe bending to Naruto's will, but then want the universe to bend to Naruto's will, just not in the way it actually happened.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except for the part of the story where the old lady had to give her life with a special jutsu that she developed herself (and thus it's unlikely anyone else knows it) in order to revive him.

except that kishi can give anyone an ability like that to revive the dead, like my tsunade example. the whole 'jinchuurikis must die after extraction' was proven inconsequential by gaara which is my point

...this just adds to my argument that you're complaining about the universe bending to Naruto's will, but then want the universe to bend to Naruto's will, just not in the way it actually happened.

that's not the same thing at all. in this example, naruto would be losing the kyuubi which is a major power source for him and the crutch he always leans on when things get dicey. so taking that crutch away would make things much more difficult for him and force him to prove his worth on his own. if anything, this is the exact opposite of the universe bending to his will

[GDB]

Except you're forcing the universe to produce yet another character that can give up their life for another, just so Naruto can survive. And you're forcing the universe to allow him to succeed without the kyuubi, just so Naruto can win. And don't kid yourself, even without the Kyuubi Naruto would win. He's the main character and it's a poorly written shounen series.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except you're forcing the universe to produce yet another character that can give up their life for another, just so Naruto can survive. And you're forcing the universe to allow him to succeed without the kyuubi, just so Naruto can win. And don't kid yourself, even without the Kyuubi Naruto would win. He's the main character and it's a poorly written shounen series.

Yeah, the problem isn't really the Kyuubi, it's Kishimoto's lack of imagination regarding the Kyuubi and the fights in which Kyuubi is added to the mix.

(That being said, taking the Kyuubi would be an instance where Naruto soundly lost, and that would be interesting in and of itself. So, even if Naruto still won all his future fights, it would be after losing a major fight. Additionally, bringing everyone back was far worse for the story than letting one person sacrifice themselves to resurrect Naruto.)

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except you're forcing the universe to produce yet another character that can give up their life for another, just so Naruto can survive.

that's incorrect. the purpose would be to extract the kyuubi and keep the main character alive. also, it doesn't have to be that cut and dry. i was only offering 1 suggestion. naruto could have survived it on his own somehow, like how someone said earlier, he could have used what little he knew about nature chakra to save himself. there are endless possibilities, including naruto being the closest genetically to the So6P and surviving based on sheer will, similar to how jiraiya willed himself back to life vs Pain, only permanently.

And you're forcing the universe to allow him to succeed without the kyuubi, just so Naruto can win.

again you are wrong. you should try to make sense out of what i'm saying instead of jumping all over me. i can see today that your goal seems to be general disagreement with me for some reason... the point here would be naruto training himself and using his own power to succeed without relying on someone else. would you say that the universe bends around every protagonist who succeeds? if so, then this would be no different that other stories. if not, then why single out naruto in this case? did the universe bend around rocky or did he train his ass off to be able to compete on the highest level?

And don't kid yourself, even without the Kyuubi Naruto would win. He's the main character and it's a poorly written shounen series.

as james pointed out, my point here has been that naruto should have lost to pain. lost. naruto loses. i can't make it any clearer. you need to take your blinders off

[Hunter]

I'm just going to drop the "Shika couldn't come with a plan" discussion it just doesn't interest me enough to continue and I think I already made my point so just for this part :

Originally Posted by james0246

[...]but it simply par for the course in regards to the actual content of the manga; consequently I see no reason to complain as if it were somehow different.

In other words, I do not see this moment as being as "overwhelming" as you do, there were other moments far worse than this - like effectively making the entire alliance nothing more than a kage bushin for his personal use, that moment stung far more than this.

I didn't say it was different or overwhelming, it's just one new example among many about what I feel is one of the biggest problem with the story. It's not even the first time I address this fact but I'm not going to rant every time it happens or I wouldn't do much else.


As far as the discussion of Naruto losing to Pain goes I don't think it's really an example of the universe bending over for Naruto. Of course the protagonist will win in an unlikely scenario but that's to be expected. No a clear example of what I was talking about is what followed his victory : he chose to spare the villain who decided he wasn't a villain anymore and resurrected everybody. Nice, clean and easy conclusion, no consequences, no hard choices.
Danzo becomes Hokage and orders Sasuke to be hunted and destroyed. What does that mean? Will Naruto refuse to follow order? Fight against his own people? Try to convince them to follow him instead of their official leader? Nothing of the sort, Danzo dies quickly and Tsunade comes back. No problem, no consequences.
He want to let raving mad Sasuke go. Will Sasuke murder innocents and be mean to puppies? Now that would put Naruto on the spot. But no, Sasuke will help save the world and won't hurt a fly.
A world war is brewing, how will Naruto convince all the ninja villages to make peace? He won't even have to try, the villains will do the job for him and since the enemies are zombies and monster plants there will be no bad blood between the various ninja factions.
Naruto refuses to follow orders and go the battlefield right where the villains want him to take away the last Bijuus, anything bad going to happen? Quite the opposite, Naruto just gained the new and only ability that can spot the Zetsus (just as he has the only power that can hurt Obito) and gaining the last two Bijuu will prove useless as Obito can make do with a tentacle and two zombies (why did he start this war in this case we will never know).

I could go on and on but you get the point. The problem isn't Naruto's increase of power or the fact that he's super lucky when he has to defeat an enemy. The problem is that he doesn't even have to struggle to win the day : the day offers itself on a silver platter, sometime even before Naruto notices there might be trouble ahead.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

But what does this really mean mate? Because there are countless other stories that do well without this horrendusly disproportionate scheme, and I'd say they do arguably better. X-Men, Avengers, Spiderman, Justice League, Batman, etc. to name a few off the top. Stories like Batman and Spiderman focus on one hero, yet that hero doesn't outshine everyone in such a ridiculous way, and I'd say they were pretty successful.

... You don't know anything about comic books, do you?

Originally Posted by Hunter

As far as the discussion of Naruto losing to Pain goes I don't think it's really an example of the universe bending over for Naruto. Of course the protagonist will win in an unlikely scenario but that's to be expected. No a clear example of what I was talking about is what followed his victory : he chose to spare the villain who decided he wasn't a villain anymore and resurrected everybody. Nice, clean and easy conclusion, no consequences, no hard choices.

To be fair, not killing Nagato was the hard choice there.

He want to let raving mad Sasuke go. Will Sasuke murder innocents and be mean to puppies? Now that would put Naruto on the spot. But no, Sasuke will help save the world and won't hurt a fly.

When did he let Sasuke go?

and gaining the last two Bijuu will prove useless as Obito can make do with a tentacle and two zombies (why did he start this war in this case we will never know).

Putting aside Bee, by the time he allied with Kabuto he already declared war. Come to think of it, did he even know about Kinkaku and Ginkaku before they were summoned.

[Typeblue]

Originally Posted by Hunter

he chose to spare the villain who decided he wasn't a villain anymore and resurrected everybody. Nice, clean and easy conclusion, no consequences, no hard choices.

I seem to remember the chapter a bit differently. To me Naruto didn't spare Pein. Naruto was out of Chakra, and Pein had enough to resurrect half the town of Konoha. If the fight was to continue, it seemed obvious that Pein would have been the victor.

Originally Posted by james0246

Yeah, the problem isn't really the Kyuubi, it's Kishimoto's lack of imagination regarding the Kyuubi and the fights in which Kyuubi is added to the mix.

You have a point, but I think majority of the people in this forum are not the target audience for Naruto. At times this forum looks like a Author bashing forum. I enjoy Naruto, I think it's better written than most comparable long running Mangas suh as, OP, DBZ, YYH, HXH, and Bleach. When I read comments like yours, It makes me wonder what Manga's you are comparing Naruto too. Maybe most of you guys are just too smart for this Manga. I enjoy Naruto, and when the day comes when I no longer enjoy it or I feel like its lost its way I will stop reading, like I did with HXH, and Bleach.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

and gaining the last two Bijuu will prove useless as Obito can make do with a tentacle and two zombies (why did he start this war in this case we will never know).

This might cause the next example that can be added to your list: when Tobito is about to win and/or break Naruto he will break down (the chakra of the tentacles running out or something)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Typeblue

I seem to remember the chapter a bit differently. To me Naruto didn't spare Pein. Naruto was out of Chakra, and Pein had enough to resurrect half the town of Konoha. If the fight was to continue, it seemed obvious that Pein would have been the victor.

Out of chakra? When did that happen? Naruto was perfectly fine was a meter away from pummeling into Nagato when he stopped and decided to let him go.

Originally Posted by Endscape

To be fair, not killing Nagato was the hard choice there.

There was nothing hard about this. Hard would be explaining the survivors that he turned loose the guy who destroyed the village and killed thousands of their kin. Hard would be dealing with the consequences of letting go a man who still planned to annihilate entire countries, killing tens of millions every now and then so people could understand what pain is.
Hard would be facing the fallout of this decision and the fact that Nagato could come back within a few days with more help to finish the job.

When did he let Sasuke go?

When did he want that Sasuke wouldn't be dealt with? Basically every single minutes within the last 4 years? When he refused to give information to the Cloud ninja about him? When he begged the Raikage on his knees to let him be? When he fainted after Gaara told him what had to be done? When he told Kakashi & co to back off? When he said to the rookies to let Sasuke to him?

But I don't think you understood what I was coming across anyway. The fact that his best friend had become a fiend and his refusal to give up on him should have had consequences for Naruto to deal with. But there was nothing, everything turned out to be fine and dandy.

Putting aside Bee, by the time he allied with Kabuto he already declared war. Come to think of it, did he even know about Kinkaku and Ginkaku before they were summoned.

Like above you're missing the point I was addressing.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Hunter

There was nothing hard about this. Hard would be explaining the survivors that he turned loose the guy who destroyed the village and killed thousands of their kin. Hard would be dealing with the consequences of letting go a man who still planned to annihilate entire countries, killing tens of millions every now and then so people could understand what pain is.
Hard would be facing the fallout of this decision and the fact that Nagato could come back within a few days with more help to finish the job.

That's confirmation bias. You speak as if he knew Nagato would do a heel turn when he refused to kill him. Yes, the story turned out that way, but at the time when Naruto made that decision, he didn't know, and the decision was difficult for him, personally.

When did he want that Sasuke wouldn't be dealt with? Basically every single minutes within the last 4 years? When he refused to give information to the Cloud ninja about him? When he begged the Raikage on his knees to let him be? When he fainted after Gaara told him what had to be done? When he told Kakashi & co to back off? When he said to the rookies to let Sasuke to him?

Wanting to save Sasuke and letting him go are two different things. Again, you act as if he saw Sasuke being completely insane, and just decided not to bother him. When Naruto did see Sasuke when he was in crazy mode, he decided to kill him if Sasuke attacked the village.

But I don't think you understood what I was coming across anyway. The fact that his best friend had become a fiend and his refusal to give up on him should have had consequences for Naruto to deal with. But there was nothing, everything turned out to be fine and dandy.

Consequences like what? For the most part, the village wanted him back as well, at least the top brass weren't against it. When that changed, Naruto left the village, even against orders, to try and save him, and got ignored and scolded. Yes, Danzo died and he didn't have to deal with it, but he left the village determined to take the heat for it.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Typeblue

At times this forum looks like a Author bashing forum. I enjoy Naruto, I think it's better written than most comparable long running Mangas suh as, OP, DBZ, YYH, HXH, and Bleach.

I don't think it's "bashing", it's just explaining what could be better. I personally like the manga, it's the only shonen manga i read, tried a few others but somehow i was not interested enough (instead i often watch the anime adaptation).

Originally Posted by Typeblue

Maybe most of you guys are just too smart for this Manga.

If you look at all the examples Hunter made you see that there's no need to be "smart" to sooner or later notice this pattern, its really something quite clear. It didn't bother me before the Pain arc, because Naruto is the hero, this is a shonen manga, it's the usual cliche' that is used everywhere to some extent, etc. However when the manga calls Naruto a "revolutionary" and Pain tells him that his path will contain a lot of pain and he will be emotionally hurt and might not endure that path and after all this you see how the author lets Naruto avoid all the big problems (see Hunter's points) it became somewhat annoying. I wouldn't even notice it if it was not the author himself that described this difficult path of a revolutionary who will change the world. A "revolutionary" is someone who turns against Danzou's evil ways and gets rid of the old corrupted evil man, he also unites the villages against evil, etc. One could say that Naruto is too dumb to do these things. That's true, but he's not alone. There are his friends, his real power is to make friends. With friends like Shikamaru who can thing of strategies and politics, friendly leader Gaara, top jounins like Kakashi, Yamato, Shikaku who would follow him, etc. he could do it. And best of this would be that if friends helped him in meaningful ways then side characters like Shikamaru would have gotten more interesting and meaningful roles. Of course if Naruto didn't have such a huge luck factor that would mean that his enemies (Tobito, etc.) would have to be less overpowered, but that would also benefit the side characters too, since currently people like Shikamaru have no chance to do anything meaningful because the enemy is insanely overpowered.