Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ashlay

unless you're every gundam series ever made, in which case its either australia, space, or both.

Australia didn't get Nuked in Gundam though, just pulverised.

As an Australian, I can personally declare there is a lack of presentation in anime of Australia. In some cases when anime portrays the world getting engulfed by aliens, they didn't even bother to put Australia on the map.

Gunbuster mentioned Australia, but only because the entire landmass was taken off the map. The country was dug up as materials to help make the Jupiter Bomb.

RahXephon was one of the few recent stories that had Australia in it. But most of the "Major cities" that were supposedly destroyed from what I can tell from the map, were tiny settlements IRL. Sydney was blown up, yet Melbourne was spared? Not far!

Gundam Seed had Australia being the major Earth ally of the Coordinators, and ZAFT placed a rather important base there. But otherwise they are completely out of sight.

We Aussies are desperate enough to get international screen-time, that we won't mind if it means getting blown up.

[m-san]

Mao mentioned Australia. He wanted to bring CC there to live in solitude together

Anyway, I totally agree with what you said on Suzaku being the perfect Number and Lelouch being the perfect Britannian, which pretty much explains the Emperor's wicked laugh after Geassing Euphie to kill all Japanese It really does seem like everything that's happened is part of the Emperor's scheme -- one big plot to make Lelouch a leader, perhaps as a replacement for him.

What I think Lelouch is good at is showing the big picture through his results, rather than invest on little details -- methods. He shows and gives the Elevens what they want: independence and justice, without letting them realize that innocent, weaponless, and weak people perish in the process. In short, he's sort of like a good salesman -- someone who knows how to market good things and hide bad ones.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by m-san

What I think Lelouch is good at is showing the big picture through his results, rather than invest on little details -- methods. He shows and gives the Elevens what they want: independence and justice, without letting them realize that innocent, weaponless, and weak people perish in the process. In short, he's sort of like a good salesman -- someone who knows how to market good things and hide bad ones.

Actually, I don't think people are blind to the fact that innocent people are going to die as collateral damage. Zero never claimed to save absolutely everyone, only that he do what he can. All that his followers know is that Zero never intentionally targeted civilians; something Britannia government doesn't mind doing themselves.
As for collateral damage? It is no more than expected. Without Zero, the Black Knights would have been simple minded terrorists blowing up trains and restaurants. Zero focused them into a coherent group that could actually achieve things.

And regardless of his intentions (which is a mystery to all but those who knew who he is), Zero is on the side of the Japanese.

[Juvyniled]

Correction: Zero never made a proposal to save anyone. Only to do what falls under the category of "justice."

To be honest, I have yet to see any other high ranking official call for the massacre of civilians apart from Clovis (Euphemia doesn't qualify because she was "under the influence"). True, the Britannian army is by no means merciful, but the top tier of the government knows better than to cause a commotion amongst things. Would they WANT to do something like that? The Purists most definitely would, but the government wouldn't do anything to jeopardize the situation at hand.

Collateral damage is indeed an undeniable fact. It's bound to happen in any situation because the rebels will continue their opposition for as long as they exist.

It is for all intents and purposes that Zero is on the side of the Japanese. After all, he needs pawns and other pieces to checkmate the opposite king, no?

[HunterRequiem]

Cornellia also ordered the mass slaughter of civilians, and her generals seemed all to happy to oblige.

Also, don't think of Lulouch on the side of the Japanese. things are too complex to just label him on one side of the conflict.

Also, they didn't inflict colateral damage, they had "targeting systems malfunctions"

[hipeach]

Lelouch does not want to liberate the Elevens/Japanese, his sole purpose is to make a world where his precious Nanaly can be happy. if that means wiping humanity out of the face of the planet, so be it. Lelouch is just manipulating everyone else to meet his own needs, using terms like "freedom", "independent", "justice" and such things to trick the others. He's not a completely colde-blooded bastard or anything, but if something must be done to reach his goal, he'll do it, whether it's at the expense of other innocent's life or the destruction of the world.

Suzaku, on the other hand, was just suicidal after he killed his father and saw that Japan was still ruined with numerous death. So he goes the opposite extreme, to strictly obey rules and following orders without doing anything "wrong" himself again. The Elevens are not strictly "his people", since Japan was conquered by Britannia, so now Japan is part of Britannia, so by rules all Japanese people are now Britannia people. And now he just fights to get revenge for his girl, nothing else.

In many aspects now Lelouch and Suzaku are quite alike. one wants to kill his father, and killed his brother and sister, the other killed his father. both fight so-called "their own people", both betrayed their own country. both now fight solely for the girls most precious to them.

[Juvyniled]

Lelouch isn't deluding himself to believing that Nunnally will be happy with the destruction of the empire or even with the way this war is "evolving". The way things are progressing, there is no possibility of coexistance for Britannians and others in the near or even distant future (and therefore, the Japanese won't be content with Britannian presence in their community and Nunnally will be discriminated against or even victimized). For both Lelouch and Suzaku, the key thing is revenge. If Lelouch doesn't rid the world of his father, his sister's and his own life will forever be in constant jeopardy. And coexistence for Britannian and Eleven peoples is no longer possible since Suzaku's biggest supporter just got whacked. One thingis s for sure though, Suzaku's no longer looking at the bigger picture, which is independence for his country... but would the Elevens take him back? Traitor to one country, and then a traitor to another... he won't fit in anywhere. So it's hopeless for him really (on a side note, the one who entrusted her life in him, vouched for him and essentially "supported" his cause was killed... by the person he's held a grudge against; Suzaku had insisted on accompanying her in her private conference with Zero and was declined, and that is really a big hit for anyone, anyone who's in the position of preventing catastrophes).

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by HunterRequiem

Cornellia also ordered the mass slaughter of civilians, and her generals seemed all to happy to oblige.

That's a different situation.

General Darlton, who is Cornelia's top general, tried to stop Euphie before getting shot.

Attacking Insurgent fighters with no hands tied behind your backs within civilian quarters is one thing.

Attacking civilians who willingly came to a stadium under the promise of the Britannian SAR is another. That's a can of worms right there. Any leader with half a brain knows how volatile that situation would be.

Also, don't think of Lulouch on the side of the Japanese. things are too complex to just label him on one side of the conflict.

He's on his own side, he's fighting for Nunnally's sake.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

One thingis s for sure though, Suzaku's no longer looking at the bigger picture, which is independence for his country...

Suzaku never really looked at the bigger picture, or wanted independence for his country. Those early words were just some self-hypnosis for him, as later when his mind was probed by Mao, it's clearly he was quite suicidal and doesn't want to break any more "rules". And since now Japan is already part of the Britannia, so it'd break "rules" for Japan to get independence. His suicidal self was later cured by Yufei's purity and love, but now he's just a demon of revenge.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by hipeach

Suzaku never really looked at the bigger picture, or wanted independence for his country. Those early words were just some self-hypnosis for him, as later when his mind was probed by Mao, it's clearly he was quite suicidal and doesn't want to break any more "rules". And since now Japan is already part of the Britannia, so it'd break "rules" for Japan to get independence. His suicidal self was later cured by Yufei's purity and love, but now he's just a demon of revenge.

You can believe what you want, but I personally attribute the treatment of Suzaku's suicidal tendencies to Lulu. Nothing like a rewiring of the brain to make Suzaku change his mind.

[holyman282]

I agree, it was because lelouch used geass on him and told him to live that attributed to Suzuka to be incapable of suicide.

As for does the end justify the means, probably not, but compare lelouch's actions to that of the entire Britannia empire.. I personally feel that Britannia is doing the greater amount of damage in the process of achieving their goals.

The end might not justify the means but the means of lelouch is clearly as of the moment better then Britannia, taking into account how many people Britannia killed to make an empire as opposed to how many people Lelouch actually killed.

By the way i also agree that australia is getting enough screen time and wth is with Mao saying that bringing C.C. to australia would bring solitude? Are you serious, Australia isn't just all bush you know..

[WhiteWings]

The Ozone layer is supposed to be thinner there but even assuming Geass world even has that problem I doubt C.C. would die of any cancer even if Mao didn't cut her into pieces.... But bottom line Australia is a good place to be anyway. I wonder if Australia is a part of the Britannia Empire...

Man, this thread is still going?

Anyway, if the means don't achieve the ends properly then its worthless. At least if the ends actually justfiy the means by getting something done then its harder to argue against it.

[Terra]

In the end, it all comes down to the results produced for deciding if the means are justified.

[narmi]

Both Lelouch and Suzaku are fighting for the right goals. In my opinion Suzaku's methods are ideology while Lelouch's are Machiavellian. In the world of Code Geass and the current events with the situation. Lelouch's method would be perfect but as stated in the begin of the series; "No human is perfect."

Our history was formed through many conflicts and those people who shaped our world new the fact that the ends justify the means.

If Lelouch wins, then history will tell the heroic rebellion of Lelouch against the savage Britannia Empire and how he changed the world for the better. In the other scenerio, Lelouch loses and then history will only tell that Lelouch lead a terrorist organization to cause chaos for the Britannia Empire. Now if Suzaku actually (don't know how) manages to change the Britannia Empire for the good to what Lelouch wanted. Then history would tell how the rebellion was a heroic act. If Suzaku failed in changing the Britannia Empire, history would tell the horrific events that was caused by the rebellion.

One way or the other the ends justify the means for that the winner decides what was right from wrong.

[mangastuff]

Originally Posted by narmi

Now if Suzaku actually (don't know how) manages to change the Britannia Empire for the good to what Lelouch wanted. Then history would tell how the rebellion was a heroic act. If Suzaku failed in changing the Britannia Empire, history would tell the horrific events that was caused by the rebellion.

Dont understand this Britanian and Suzaku's have similar POVs toward the rebellion

[JagdPanther]

Okay, I am burning through the majority of CG right now and expect to be done tonight. Just finished episode 22.

I've expressed my distaste for the Order of the Black Knights and Lulu in other topics, but this episode just did it for me.

Lulu. Sucks.

I cannot agree at all with anything he is doing. Yes, I understand that he wants to avenge is mother and he wants to create a peaceful world for his sister, but... HE IS SO FAR GONE.... I mean, the Black Knights... I wonder if this is what people under some of history's dictators were like? Some of them have to realize there's something fishy about Zero. He's NUTS.

Didn't he notice that his Geass was out? All he had to do was eventually give a command and she'd follow it. And Jesus, what a stupid command to give...

I am just really angry right now.

Lulu and morals? No, selfishness all the way. Anyone can see even the idea of making a world solely for Nunally is supremely selfish of Zero. It's like Lewis Black, "His advisers should've shown him a globe and pointed, 'Look, huh huh, other countries, other people!'" Totally nuts.

It was really depressing to see that happen to Euphemia... And very disheartening to see something that a VERY good chance of working get destroyed by Lulu's insanity (his anger triggered the Geass going permanent; it was only a matter of time before he made one rash command and the chain reaction became something even his mind could never have envisioned).

And I understand that complexity of his character makes him valuable in that he has some good parts and bad parts. Normally I would agree, but in this case... Gawd, I cannot look past his insanity. Maybe the next 3 episodes will change my mind somewhat but I can't see how.

I still don't know who to root for in CG, even after 22 episodes. It's so hard to decide who I would side with. I know for damn sure it wouldn't be the Black Knights.

Right now I'm kinda leaning towards Suzaku, but... I hear after Zero kills... Um... You know... in episode 23, that Suzaku basically becomes totally set on vengeance and no longer working towards finding a way to fix the problems at hand as he was before.

And I am SOOOOOOOOOO glad that Lulu specifically acknowledged that he IS a terrorist. Really proves to me that I cannot ever support him or the Black Knights.

*grumble*grumble*

I need to play some Insurgency Mod before I finish of CG tonight. Need to shoot at something. -_-;

[Terra]

His anger did not trigger his geass going permanent. The anger followed the pain in his eye. And it was the pain in his eye that showed his geass going permanent. In the Mao arc it showed that Lelouch's geass would go permanent at some point. It just happened to go permanent at the worst moment. Before Lelouch had always been in control of geass. How was he to know what it would be like when he lost control. Hell, even C.C. didn't know it was that happening until she saw Lelouch's eye. His geass going out of control combined with a bad joke caused this. It was purely an accident because of events Lelouch couldn't have foreseen happening right then.

[Var]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Okay, I am burning through the majority of CG right now and expect to be done tonight. Just finished episode 22.

I've expressed my distaste for the Order of the Black Knights and Lulu in other topics, but this episode just did it for me.

Lulu. Sucks.

I cannot agree at all with anything he is doing. Yes, I understand that he wants to avenge is mother and he wants to create a peaceful world for his sister, but... HE IS SO FAR GONE.... I mean, the Black Knights... I wonder if this is what people under some of history's dictators were like? Some of them have to realize there's something fishy about Zero. He's NUTS.

This is what all history is like. In the span that is human existence about 1 in, oh say, the entire human population of people to come to power or to change the world did it for non-selfish reasons. That one person being probably Jesus, which is also compounded by the fact that not everyone thinks of him as being real/ideal/messiah/whatnot. Every one else did something or other with their own, or someone elses, well being or future in mind. No one ever changes anything (as in succeeds for more than one year before corruption rapes their new world) by simply trying to make the world into a better place, wishful thinking, or to make everyone all super-duper equals (Suzaku). That's called Communism and it led to... FAIL!

Zero is a fanatic, given, but he is also not dumb enough to think that anything but force and bloodshed can remove an Empire like Britannia from Japan, or to even make it lose some of its foothold on the world. The Empire is portrayed as unforgiving of resistance, see fate of Sector 18, and even Euphie's SAZ (which has been discussed to death as to why it would not work) was nothing but a ploy to tame Japan, all be it that it came with the utmost belief in from Euphie but she was naive to say the least. Suzaku, on the other hand, seems adamant in his belief that good will and rising in the ranks in some way helps your people. Well... I sure as hell didn't see it do much for anyone but Suzaku and his ego.

In the end, though, what must do whatever it takes if they really wish to win. That is what history is and it is how it has come to be.

Didn't he notice that his Geass was out? All he had to do was eventually give a command and she'd follow it. And Jesus, what a stupid command to give...

I am just really angry right now.

He had no idea it was active. He had no way of even feeling it. It activated well before he told her to kill the Japanese but he was turned around and completely unaware of the fact. He was making a point, all be it a slightly cheap plot advancing point, but it was not his intention to do anything but simply demonstrate his power.

Lulu and morals? No, selfishness all the way. Anyone can see even the idea of making a world solely for Nunally is supremely selfish of Zero. It's like Lewis Black, "His advisers should've shown him a globe and pointed, 'Look, huh huh, other countries, other people!'" Totally nuts.

The words moral and war do not go hand in hand. In fact... war is one of the most demoralized things in existence. War is the attempt to conquer or defeat, you can't have moral on the battlefield. The moment you start thinking if something is morally ok is the moment the other side shoots you because you hesitated.

Also, look at Zero from a different side. Every time he does anything, he makes sure people he cares for are safe, or as safe as can be. He takes the academy for a reason (true Nunally is there, but its not just for her), he saves Kallen time and again for a reason, he saves Suzaku for a reason. If anything, Zero is far to kind for what he wants to do. He could have killed Suzaku, or let Kallen die for some other good, or simply kill Shirley or Euphie the first time around, but every time he stops, hesitates, and backs away.

If anything, by the end of the season he is the only character left with any real carrying for others (all be it only Nunally). Suzaku goes bonkers, Kallen falls to pieces (for some overly dramatized reason), and the OoTBK is hopelessly lost without their leader and is more or less blaming him (giving that he is at fault but come on, the hierarchy is there for a reason).

It was really depressing to see that happen to Euphemia... And very disheartening to see something that a VERY good chance of working get destroyed by Lulu's insanity (his anger triggered the Geass going permanent; it was only a matter of time before he made one rash command and the chain reaction became something even his mind could never have envisioned).

There was no chance of the SAZ working. Discussed already. It wasn't Lulu's insanity that destroyed it, hell its destruction is what drove him more towards insanity. You twist the event to seem as if he went up to Euphie and GEASSed her with the command on purpose.

And I understand that complexity of his character makes him valuable in that he has some good parts and bad parts. Normally I would agree, but in this case... Gawd, I cannot look past his insanity. Maybe the next 3 episodes will change my mind somewhat but I can't see how.

Better than Suzaku and his heir-than-thou thought pattern. Suzaku is the flattest character in the show, painfully so even. Lelouch is important because he understands, and is ready to take responsibility for, what needs to be done to change the world (all be it namely for his sister).

I still don't know who to root for in CG, even after 22 episodes. It's so hard to decide who I would side with. I know for damn sure it wouldn't be the Black Knights.

Right now I'm kinda leaning towards Suzaku, but... I hear after Zero kills... Um... You know... in episode 23, that Suzaku basically becomes totally set on vengeance and no longer working towards finding a way to fix the problems at hand as he was before.

Cheering on Suzaku is like cheering on Communism for what it could have been during the Bolshevik era. I would personally root for OoTBK if this were anything in which you can root for a side, which I do not believe it is. All sides are evil, one simply has to choose the least evil and hope for their victory. OoTBK is the only side that has any intention of doing something beneficial for the people, even if it is not Zero's first and foremost goal, he needs to make people happy if he is too overcome an empire.

And I am SOOOOOOOOOO glad that Lulu specifically acknowledged that he IS a terrorist. Really proves to me that I cannot ever support him or the Black Knights.

*grumble*grumble*

I need to play some Insurgency Mod before I finish of CG tonight. Need to shoot at something. -_-;

Of course he is a terrorist, OoTBK are a terrorist group because they oppose the ruling body and terrorize those they oppose. That is what a terrorist is after all. Him admitting it is like me admitting to being human, hey how informative!

Overall, everyone is evil in this show. Some just more so than others. But looking at it after the end of the first Season, Lelouch is the only person who has done or accomplished anything all be it for selfish reasons.

[Meatrose]

Hehe, I had an urge to write a response to that post too, but I'm simply too tired to write stuff that I've already written in this thread before. Thank you for taking the words outta my mouth (more or less) Var. You saved me a lot of typing. ^^

*off to bed*

[JagdPanther]

Apparently it would be highly unwise of me to comment further on this topic if I wish to remain in good standing here.