Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, he was being used as a pawn by Zouken through the whole route, yes. But, nevertheless, he chose to rape and abuse Sakura, and no matter what you might say about Shinji's circumstances, you can't possibly claim that they're even a tenth as bad as Sakura's are.

I thought he was instructed to rape Sakura to alleviate her?

And I am not saying what he did is okay, I still hate the bastard and wish he died horribly in all three routes.

[quote]

Well, no, most servants survive on the prana supplied by their masters. However, because Shirou is a shit magus, his connection to Saber never got established properly, so she couldn't draw prana from him, hence why she needed to get it through sex. In Rider's case, whilst Sakura can supply her with prana, the worms in her body suck out any excess prana she might have, so Sakura is always low on prana and thus has little to spare to fuel Rider.

However, sex is certainly not the only way to get prana. Other than using spells (like Caster does) to draw prana from people in the town or using Rider's boundary field to melt people, a servant can also gain prana by eating people's souls (or, seemingly, also by sucking blood, judging by what Rider does to the people she finds). It's implied that that's what Rider does under Shinji's control (and, indeed, that's probably what she did to Ayako, although Ayako survived). However, when she's under Sakura's control, eating people isn't an option (unless she does it secretly, and even then if Sakura found out she'd be very angry), so in order to reduce Sakura's burden she has sex with Shirou.

Got ya. Thanks for the clarifications.

Wonder how Shirou managed to sleep through that? Maybe he was hypnotized or something.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Wonder how Shirou managed to sleep through that? Maybe he was hypnotized or something.

He played Tsukihime and realized that once a magical creature decides to dream-sex you, she's gonna do it, even if she has to tie you to the bed or paralyze your limbs. So he decided he might as well just go along with it.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I thought he was instructed to rape Sakura to alleviate her?

I'm not sure if that's actually canon or fanon, but even if it is true, he wasn't told how to go about it. He could have explained the situation to Sakura and been kind and gentle. But, no, he chose to humiliate her as much as possible, made no effort to make her enjoy it and treated her as his slave. And he was certainly never told to abuse her and hit her like he did, or to kidnap and torture her to use her as bait for Shirou, or to use the poison on her that activated the worms (Zouken gave it to him with the obvious intention that it would get used, but he never actually ordered Shinji to do it), or to attempt to rape her when she was in a happy relationship with Shirou, or....

And I am not saying what he did is okay, I still hate the bastard and wish he died horribly in all three routes.

Yeah. He got what he deserved in HF. Well, partially anyway. He deserved something more painful, really, but his death came as a direct result of his own stupidity and evilness.

Wonder how Shirou managed to sleep through that? Maybe he was hypnotized or something.

He didn't, he just thought it was a sex dream. And, yes, I think he was hypnotised, in a sense. Rider's Breaker Gorgon (the blindfold) acts to allow Rider to ger inside Shirou's mind, I think. I'm not entirely sure of the details, but Rider has something that allows her to fuck around with other people's minds.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Yeah, but sex is not the only way, right? It's just the easiest. I think Rin explained it in Fate before she kissed Shirou.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, no, most servants survive on the prana supplied by their masters. However, because Shirou is a shit magus, his connection to Saber never got established properly, so she couldn't draw prana from him, hence why she needed to get it through sex. In Rider's case, whilst Sakura can supply her with prana, the worms in her body suck out any excess prana she might have, so Sakura is always low on prana and thus has little to spare to fuel Rider.

However, sex is certainly not the only way to get prana. Other than using spells (like Caster does) to draw prana from people in the town or using Rider's boundary field to melt people, a servant can also gain prana by eating people's souls (or, seemingly, also by sucking blood, judging by what Rider does to the people she finds). It's implied that that's what Rider does under Shinji's control (and, indeed, that's probably what she did to Ayako, although Ayako survived). However, when she's under Sakura's control, eating people isn't an option (unless she does it secretly, and even then if Sakura found out she'd be very angry), so in order to reduce Sakura's burden she has sex with Shirou.

Blood and sex have been shown at least once to be roughly the same thing in the Nasuverse, over in Kagetsu Tohya. Either one can be used to transfer Prana between two individuals. Transfer by blood is quicker and easier, but sex works better and allows the donor to give more energy overall with less cost to themselves. Rider most likely sucks blood for that reason; it doesn't work as well, but she can just bite down and suck their soul out in a few minutes, then move onto the next. Quantity over quality.

[willyvereb]

Here you go again Flinch. Where should I begin? Let's start with "base" Shirou and his "ideal":
Because RadiantBeam has yet to complete HF I put it into spoiler tags:

Spoiler for moderate HF spoiler:

As all of you know, Shirou is a victim of the 4th Grail War and the catastrophic fire happened in the finale. He lost his parents and the people around him literally burned to crisp. He saw more physical suffering in one day than a regular war veteran in his whole life. Thanks to his luck and magic potential he survived the event but his life changed forever. HF details it more but in short he started to blame himself for that and blame himself for ridiculously surviving alone of those people. He was the only survivor of the fire. And perhaps he met Kiritsugu, the man who looked honestly happy to save him. We have boy with deep feeling of guilt who wants to atone at all costs and a man who shows an example. Unlike in the anime, Shirou knows that Kiritsugu had a hand in that catastrophe and the death of his family but he forgives him and sees his example as the way for atonement. He wants to be a hero to save people and feel that happiness Kiritsugu felt there. That's why he's helpful to the level of being almost like a doormat. That is his primary principle. As a magus he's ready to kill but as a superhero he can't kill anyone who isn't bad because it conflicts with his ideal.

Man...how many times I need to tell this. He didn't forsake his ideal. No, he reforged it and purified it from all those delusional parts that Kiritsugu indirectly gave him. Saving everyone is kind of cool...until you face you would never be able to do it and it only leaves you empty without anything to gain. That is if you doesn't put a limit. Even superman does that, even batman and all superheroes in general. But not Shirou and it would make him an empty husk without personal feelings and happiness if he continues to walk onward...Like Archer. Now I explain actually what Shirou did in HF:

Spoiler for obviously, HF:

In HF he slowly realized his real wish. In HF he not only faced with the impossiblity of thr ideal but that it might turn him against his loved ones and to their eventual death. Shirou's "ideal" condemns him to sorrow and solitary. It's the complete opposite of what Shirou wants. He feels guilty of surviving of that fire and in turn he wants to be contempt and happy. He doesn't want to save hordes of nameless people. He wants to save his loved ones and be with them. He realizes that and fights for it with all his might to make that happen. If you prefer UBW or Fate Shirou you either didn't read the VN throughly, don't care much about Shirou or overwhelmingly prefer the other pairings(probably more than one of those). Fate and UBW Shirou will keep on with their inner suffering and war while HF Shirou finally made peace with himself and live a more normal life where he's the one in control. Fate and UBW Shirou eventually end up as tools for other parties or the situations. Even with Rin's active help I doubt UBW Shirou can escape that fate(being used) without a drastic change.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

He played Tsukihime and realized that once a magical creature decides to dream-sex you, she's gonna do it, even if she has to tie you to the bed or paralyze your limbs. So he decided he might as well just go along with it.

I was thinking of playing that next. How was it?

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I'm not sure if that's actually canon or fanon, but even if it is true, he wasn't told how to go about it. He could have explained the situation to Sakura and been kind and gentle. But, no, he chose to humiliate her as much as possible, made no effort to make her enjoy it and treated her as his slave. And he was certainly never told to abuse her and hit her like he did, or to kidnap and torture her to use her as bait for Shirou, or to use the poison on her that activated the worms (Zouken gave it to him with the obvious intention that it would get used, but he never actually ordered Shinji to do it), or to attempt to rape her when she was in a happy relationship with Shirou, or....

That is all quite true. He definitely could have done it differently but he made his choices.

He didn't, he just thought it was a sex dream. And, yes, I think he was hypnotised, in a sense. Rider's Breaker Gorgon (the blindfold) acts to allow Rider to ger inside Shirou's mind, I think. I'm not entirely sure of the details, but Rider has something that allows her to fuck around with other people's minds.

Oh. I thought he was actually sleeping the dream or something. I don't remember them telling us a lot about the Breaker Gorgon. Unless it's in the status menu? I haven't read through that since Fate.

Originally Posted by Moczo

Blood and sex have been shown at least once to be roughly the same thing in the Nasuverse, over in Kagetsu Tohya. Either one can be used to transfer Prana between two individuals. Transfer by blood is quicker and easier, but sex works better and allows the donor to give more energy overall with less cost to themselves. Rider most likely sucks blood for that reason; it doesn't work as well, but she can just bite down and suck their soul out in a few minutes, then move onto the next. Quantity over quality.

Right, right. When I first started playing I was wondering what excuse they were going to use to put the H scenes in. At least they came up with something good, haha.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That is all quite true. He definitely could have done it differently but he made his choices.

Exactly.

Oh. I thought he was actually sleeping the dream or something.

I'm not certain, but I don't think it went that way.

I don't remember them telling us a lot about the Breaker Gorgon. Unless it's in the status menu? I haven't read through that since Fate.

I don't think it's in the game itself. That information comes from the various side material books and from Hollow Ataraxia (where Rider does something similar). Hence why I'm not totally sure.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I was thinking of playing that next. How was it?

Quite good, I thought. It's a horror story, so it's darker in tone than FSN and has less in the way of action and more in the way of imbuing you with a series of wonderful nightmares, but the writing style is similar enough that if you like one, you'll probably like the other. The art isn't as good, which can get kinda distracting if you've played FSN first (everything looks similar, but kinda off), but it's not a huge deal.

And it's widely considered that each of the FSN girls is based traits from one or two of the Tsukihime girls, so you're kind of getting to see the 'prototypes', which is fascinating.

[Cherry_Lover]

Horror story?

I'm not entirely sure that's any more true of Tsukihime than of FSN, really. I mean, HF is certainly pretty damn horrific, especially if you take the time to think about the sort of things that have been done to Sakura over the last eleven years....

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I don't think it's in the game itself. That information comes from the various side material books and from Hollow Ataraxia (where Rider does something similar). Hence why I'm not totally sure.

Ah, I see. If only those side books and Ataraxia translated.

Speaking of Ataraxia, I read that it's a sequel but it looks like it's more of an alternate story or something?

Originally Posted by Moczo

Quite good, I thought. It's a horror story, so it's darker in tone than FSN and has less in the way of action and more in the way of imbuing you with a series of wonderful nightmares, but the writing style is similar enough that if you like one, you'll probably like the other. The art isn't as good, which can get kinda distracting if you've played FSN first (everything looks similar, but kinda off), but it's not a huge deal.

And it's widely considered that each of the FSN girls is based traits from one or two of the Tsukihime girls, so you're kind of getting to see the 'prototypes', which is fascinating.

Yeah, I may play it. I am going to do Ever17 first though.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Horror story?

I'm not entirely sure that's any more true of Tsukihime than of FSN, really. I mean, HF is certainly pretty damn horrific, especially if you take the time to think about the sort of things that have been done to Sakura over the last eleven years....

Exactly. That's why I raged so much. I loved Sakura so much. She is the sweetest character and since I played with the voice patch, she sounded even more innocent and sweet. And for them to do that to her, ugh. I have no problem with her turning into a bad guy, it's just what they did to her in the past was horrible.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Speaking of Ataraxia, I read that it's a sequel but it looks like it's more of an alternate story or something?

Technically it's supposed to be a sequel, but the actual continuity of it is debatable in terms of the story and the characters. Last I heard it was considered discontinuity, but I could be wrong since I've only read about it from other sources. It hasn't been translated yet, has it?

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Horror story?

I'm not entirely sure that's any more true of Tsukihime than of FSN, really. I mean, HF is certainly pretty damn horrific, especially if you take the time to think about the sort of things that have been done to Sakura over the last eleven years....

I thought it was a horror story. FSN didn't get that real, horrific, utterly-hopeless feeling until HF, but Tsukihime had it all the time once the story got started. I think a big part of it was the viewpoint character. Like Shirou in HF, his powers were slowly killing him and he was being driven insane by forces he didn't understand, but unlike Shirou, Shiki was like this in every route. In even the most lighthearted moment on the most cheerful route, he might start coughing up blood and have to be dragged home before his own body killed him, or start randomly developing urges to murder everyone around him and not understand why. And on the dark routes... ::shudder::.

And as for Sakura, well... Kohaku. Sakura's past frightened the hell out of me, but she never did, even when she was evil. Kohaku makes my skin crawl on multiple levels.

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Technically it's supposed to be a sequel, but the actual continuity of it is debatable in terms of the story and the characters. Last I heard it was considered discontinuity, but I could be wrong since I've only read about it from other sources. It hasn't been translated yet, has it?

In terms of actual story, it could follow any of the routes, because none of it actually 'happens'. It's all in one character's head, and she didn't appear in person in any of the FSN storylines (she was mentioned, but not by name and only briefly).

Though given Type Moon's stand on canon, the answer they'd probably give was that it follows a version in which all of the Good Endings to each of the routes somehow happened simultaneously, even if that doesn't make sense, because that allows Shirou to have Saber, Rin, Sakura, Rider and Illya all there for maximum harem potential. With Tsukihime sequels, they like to say that all of these mutually exclusive things are in the same game because it follows the 'Satsuki Route' (which, for the uninformed, does not exist and is in fact a long running joke in its nonexistence). So I guess Ataraxia follows the 'Illya route' or the 'Mitsuzuri route' or something like that.

And someone is translating it, but I don't know how far along they are.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

AExactly. That's why I raged so much. I loved Sakura so much. She is the sweetest character and since I played with the voice patch, she sounded even more innocent and sweet. And for them to do that to her, ugh.

No argment there. Sakura is so damn sweet and loveable. But, that's the point. To see someone so kind, caring and sweet suffer like that breaks your heart, and it makes it so much harder to take the decision to kill her, because you care about her and you feel sorry for her. Her abuse makes you, as a player, want to give her the good life that she deserves, and thus it makes it so much more tempting to go along with Shirou's decisions rather than just taking the easy cop-out route of going "I'll sacrifice one drawing to save lots of people who never even got drawn" and then raging when it gets you a bad end.

The whole point of making Sakura so sweet is that it makes you care for her as you would for a real person. You care for her and want to protect her, more than you want to see Shirou follow some silly ideal. The reason HF works so well is because she's so loveable, and Shirou is forced to either sit by and watch as the sweetest girl in the entire game (whose only source of happiness has been to be by his side) is murdered by her own sister or else risk the possibility of allowing the deaths of many other people as a result of her unconscious actions.

I have no problem with her turning into a bad guy, it's just what they did to her in the past was horrible.

Well, without the backstory, the "turning into a bad guy" thing wouldn't work, because it's the horrific abuse and the implantation of the corrupted worms into her body that makes her corruption possible.

If you turned her into a bad guy without all the abuse, then she wouldn't be able to be a heroine. What makes her a heroine is the fact that she resisted Zouken's abuse and the pressure of Angra Mainyu for so damn long, and that even once she gave in to the corruption she still didn't break down entirely, and was able to fight it enough to spare Rin and Shirou (usually), and to eventually kill Zouken.

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Technically it's supposed to be a sequel, but the actual continuity of it is debatable in terms of the story and the characters. Last I heard it was considered discontinuity, but I could be wrong since I've only read about it from other sources. It hasn't been translated yet, has it?

Well, the way the story is set up, it's not a sequel to any of the routes. However, the characters in it act as they would if it were a sequel, so any backstory or characterisation in there is canon, even though the story itself isn't.

Originally Posted by Moczo

Though given Type Moon's stand on canon, the answer they'd probably give was that it follows a version in which all of the Good Endings to each of the routes somehow happened simultaneously, even if that doesn't make sense, because that allows Shirou to have Saber, Rin, Sakura, Rider and Illya all there for maximum harem potential.

Spoiler for HA:

Actually, I believe that their explanation is that Rin made a mess of an experiment and accidentally merged all the different realities together....

[Grey]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Man...how many times I need to tell this. He didn't forsake his ideal. No, he reforged it and purified it from all those delusional parts that Kiritsugu indirectly gave him. Saving everyone is kind of cool...until you face you would never be able to do it and it only leaves you empty without anything to gain. That is if you doesn't put a limit. Even superman does that, even batman and all superheroes in general. But not Shirou and it would make him an empty husk without personal feelings and happiness if he continues to walk onward...Like Archer.

You're just saying that his ideal was shitty, and therefore it's not "throwing away his ideal". But HF Shirou himself admits he's throwing away his ideal. UBW Shirou, in comparison, thought it was worth it...and Archer agreed. Archer became bitter because he was stuck with a terrible afterlife, but from Rin's dreams we see that he died satisfied. After seeing Shirou's determined spirit, Archer remembered his old self and agreed with Shirou; that is why Archer lost the fight in UBW. So...yeah, HF Shirou did throw away his ideal, regardless of whether you think the ideal is delusional or stupid.

Also, you might want to re-read UBW. You focus a lot on guilt as Shirou's motivation, but that's primarily from Fate Route. UBW develops Shirou differently.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

I thought it was a horror story. FSN didn't get that real, horrific, utterly-hopeless feeling until HF, but Tsukihime had it all the time once the story got started. I think a big part of it was the viewpoint character. Like Shirou in HF, his powers were slowly killing him and he was being driven insane by forces he didn't understand, but unlike Shirou, Shiki was like this in every route. In even the most lighthearted moment on the most cheerful route, he might start coughing up blood and have to be dragged home before his own body killed him, or start randomly developing urges to murder everyone around him and not understand why. And on the dark routes... ::shudder::.

And as for Sakura, well... Kohaku. Sakura's past frightened the hell out of me, but she never did, even when she was evil. Kohaku makes my skin crawl on multiple levels.

I don't think I want to play Tsukihime anymore.

In terms of actual story, it could follow any of the routes, because none of it actually 'happens'. It's all in one character's head, and she didn't appear in person in any of the FSN storylines (she was mentioned, but not by name and only briefly).

Though given Type Moon's stand on canon, the answer they'd probably give was that it follows a version in which all of the Good Endings to each of the routes somehow happened simultaneously, even if that doesn't make sense, because that allows Shirou to have Saber, Rin, Sakura, Rider and Illya all there for maximum harem potential. With Tsukihime sequels, they like to say that all of these mutually exclusive things are in the same game because it follows the 'Satsuki Route' (which, for the uninformed, does not exist and is in fact a long running joke in its nonexistence). So I guess Ataraxia follows the 'Illya route' or the 'Mitsuzuri route' or something like that.

And someone is translating it, but I don't know how far along they are.

It sounds like Ataraxia is just a cash in of all of the characters. I saw some CGs and you see them doing normal, every day stuff, instead of fighting. I'm sure they prolly threw in some new H scenes for good measure as well.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No argment there. Sakura is so damn sweet and loveable. But, that's the point. To see someone so kind, caring and sweet suffer like that breaks your heart, and it makes it so much harder to take the decision to kill her, because you care about her and you feel sorry for her. Her abuse makes you, as a player, want to give her the good life that she deserves, and thus it makes it so much more tempting to go along with Shirou's decisions rather than just taking the easy cop-out route of going "I'll sacrifice one drawing to save lots of people who never even got drawn" and then raging when it gets you a bad end.

The whole point of making Sakura so sweet is that it makes you care for her as you would for a real person. You care for her and want to protect her, more than you want to see Shirou follow some silly ideal. The reason HF works so well is because she's so loveable, and Shirou is forced to either sit by and watch as the sweetest girl in the entire game (whose only source of happiness has been to be by his side) is murdered by her own sister or else risk the possibility of allowing the deaths of many other people as a result of her unconscious actions.



Well, without the backstory, the "turning into a bad guy" thing wouldn't work, because it's the horrific abuse and the implantation of the corrupted worms into her body that makes her corruption possible.

If you turned her into a bad guy without all the abuse, then she wouldn't be able to be a heroine. What makes her a heroine is the fact that she resisted Zouken's abuse and the pressure of Angra Mainyu for so damn long, and that even once she gave in to the corruption she still didn't break down entirely, and was able to fight it enough to spare Rin and Shirou (usually), and to eventually kill Zouken.

Yeah, that is all true and is why I will admit to the writer's brilliance. Not only was she sweet, but you had two previous routes to have her grow on you until getting to know her even more in HF. I don't have as much rage as I did now that I've thought and talked about it.

In terms of which heroine I like, I am torn between Rin & Sakura. But right now I lean towards Rin because she is just so fun in all of the routes. I know, Sakura wasn't around as long and didn't have a chance to shine, but Rin teases Shirou so very well. But then again, I did love Sakura when she got jealous. I wished there was a longer epilogue in HF to see more of their everyday life.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

It sounds like Ataraxia is just a cash in of all of the characters. I saw some CGs and you see them doing normal, every day stuff, instead of fighting.

Yeah, well, that's the point of it. You get to see them living their everyday lives.

I'm sure they prolly threw in some new H scenes for good measure as well.

Yeah, Rin gets one or two, Sakura gets one, Saber gets one or two and Rider (sort of) gets a threesome with Sakura and Shirou.

Yeah, that is all true and is why I will admit to the writer's brilliance. Not only was she sweet, but you had two previous routes to have her grow on you until getting to know her even more in HF. I don't have as much rage as I did now that I've thought and talked about it.

Yeah, exactly. Although, really, I never cared much for her until I played HF. She just seemed like Shirou's nice, sweet, innocent (too innocent, really, given the setting and her close involvement in it) but rather uninteresting (and seemingly pretty weak) Kohai. It's only HF that made me realise how great she was, and how strong she was.

But right now I lean towards Rin because she is just so fun in all of the routes.

In all honesty, Rin's actions in HF really made me rage. When I finished it the first time, I really didn't like her. But, as I thought about it more, I realised that she's actually broken too, although in a different way. Her father forced the whole "you must be a good magus" thing so far down her throat that she can't deal with it.

I know, Sakura wasn't around as long and didn't have a chance to shine, but Rin teases Shirou so very well.

Actually, Sakura is pretty good at it too. She just tends not to do it as much, because of her situation. Rin and Sakura are pretty similar, deep down. It's just that the way they've been raised and lived their lives has turned then into very different people.

I wished there was a longer epilogue in HF to see more of their everyday life.

Well, HA does this to a certain extent, although Sakura isn't actually with Shirou there. From what I can tell, without Zouken suppressing her, Sakura kind of becomes a "Rin-lite", to a certain extent (although of course with her own individual personality).

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

In all honesty, Rin's actions in HF really made me rage. When I finished it the first time, I really didn't like her. But, as I thought about it more, I realised that she's actually broken too, although in a different way. Her father forced the whole "you must be a good magus" thing so far down her throat that she can't deal with it.

This. I really like Rin (Of the three heroines, she's the one who most consistently made me smile), but her actions in HF really pissed me off too... until I thought back on the other routes, and all the fairly obvious signs that her 'coldhearted magus' side is a front she puts on to cope with adversity. It didn't click until the very end, when she had a shot at a killing blow and couldn't take it, that she'd been such a bitch the whole route because she was desperately trying to cope with the knowledge that she would probably have to kill her own sister, and going deep into her magus shell was the only way she could even contemplate this course of action without breaking down. And even that wasn't enough to make her actually go through with it.

Well, HA does this to a certain extent, although Sakura isn't actually with Shirou there. From what I can tell, without Zouken suppressing her, Sakura kind of becomes a "Rin-lite", to a certain extent (although of course with her own individual personality).

From what I understand, the archery team, Shinji, and even Zouken are actively afraid of her in HA. She's really mastered the tried-and-true female art of being scary with a cheerful smile on her face.

I'm hoping it gets translated soon. Some more funny, cheerful memories to offset the depressing ones is just what the doctor ordered as far as Sakura is concerned.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

This. I really like Rin (Of the three heroines, she's the one who most consistently made me smile), but her actions in HF really pissed me off too... until I thought back on the other routes, and all the fairly obvious signs that her 'coldhearted magus' side is a front she puts on to cope with adversity. It didn't click until the very end, when she had a shot at a killing blow and couldn't take it, that she'd been such a bitch the whole route because she was desperately trying to cope with the knowledge that she would probably have to kill her own sister, and going deep into her magus shell was the only way she could even contemplate this course of action without breaking down. And even that wasn't enough to make her actually go through with it.

Well, this was pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Except that she didn't have to kill her sister, she just thought she did, and her actions made it more likely that she would have to do it in the end. There are several occasions in the route where Sakura could perhaps have stopped, only for Rin's bitchiness to push her over the edge.

From what I understand, the archery team, Shinji, and even Zouken are actively afraid of her in HA.

To be fair, Zouken has abused her for eleven years, she's way more powerful than he is and he no longer has any control over her. He damn well should be scared, because any remotely normal person (i.e. not insanely kind and forgiving) would have got the bug spray out the minute they were freed of his control (and I somehow doubt Zouken understands concepts like "compassion" and "forgiveness", so he probably thinks she's keeping him alive until she can think of a suitable punishment for him...). Ditto Shinji, to a lesser extent.

She's really mastered the tried-and-true female art of being scary with a cheerful smile on her face.

Yeah, which is exactly like Rin....

I'm hoping it gets translated soon. Some more funny, cheerful memories to offset the depressing ones is just what the doctor ordered as far as Sakura is concerned.

Yeah, and I want to see what Sakura is like when she's able to live a normal life, without Zouken's abuse. She's such a strong person, but in HF she's so low on confidence and has no sense of self-worth, so she appears (on the surface) to be weak. I'd love to be able to see how she blossoms once she's free to live her own life without Zouken controlling her and torturing her on a regular basis.

[DragoZERO]

Shirou is pretty lucky in HA.


I actually knew right off the bat that Rin was hiding behind a shell. You knew from UBW that she isn't a cold hearted bitch so there is a reason for her to act like one in HF. Also, she did grow up with Sakura until they are like six or seven, right? So she has some memory of them being true sisters, so with that and her confession of always Sakura, you knew she cared for her. She just didn't think there was a way of saving her without killing her. And Rin had no way of saving her, other than killing her. Only Shirou was able to, when he (predictably) made the Rule Breaker (or whatever it's called) to free her.

Speaking of... they Rule Breaker freed her from everything except being a holy grail, right? I didn't understand that really. I thought it would have made her completely free from everything that Zouken did to her. It only freed her from Anru Magryu (sp?) then?

I don't see Sakura intentionally making fun of Shirou. I can see her being a smiling devil like Rin, probably when Shirou does something wrong or what have you.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Shirou is pretty lucky in HA.


I actually knew right off the bat that Rin was hiding behind a shell. You knew from UBW that she isn't a cold hearted bitch so there is a reason for her to act like one in HF. Also, she did grow up with Sakura until they are like six or seven, right? So she has some memory of them being true sisters, so with that and her confession of always Sakura, you knew she cared for her. She just didn't think there was a way of saving her without killing her. And Rin had no way of saving her, other than killing her. Only Shirou was able to, when he (predictably) made the Rule Breaker (or whatever it's called) to free her.

I should have realized that right off the bat, and felt very stupid when I figured it out and realized how long it took me to do so .

Speaking of... they Rule Breaker freed her from everything except being a holy grail, right? I didn't understand that really. I thought it would have made her completely free from everything that Zouken did to her. It only freed her from Anru Magryu (sp?) then?

It's Angra Mainyu.

And as I understood it, yeah, it just freed her from her connection to that. The Holy Grail thing is a result of modifications to her physical body, not a mystical link that Rule Breaker could sever. It just broke her link to the Grail energies she was channeling, so while she's still a 'Grail', there's just nothing to fill her anymore.

Except Shirou.

God, that was awful.

EDIT: Page claim for filthy innuendo!