[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

It's right because it is already concluded that I can't really buy the genius Battler theory. I can see a few hints of that in EP6, but I think that if Ryuukishi really planned that move he would have definitely revealed it before the end of EP6.

P.S: The difference between me and Erika is that I love the characters. She wants to incriminate someone at all costs, I think it's possible that no murder ever occurred and I would like it better that way. Just like Battler I'm not comfortable with anyone being a psycho killer. The mass suicide explosion is still okay. But to kill several people, friends and relatives while watching them in the eyes. You must be a total psycho.

[Renall]

Well, it's not really a mass suicide unless everyone agrees to it... now wouldn't that be a strange truth to reveal. Using the power of persuasion, "Beatrice" convinces the family this is for the best...

[Oliver]

To me, it feels like Battler did indeed have a Grand Plan, but it was not there when he designed the game initially. He had to improvise it in place as the idea occurred to him.

My guess it would be sometime around when Moetrice brought him cookies.

[Jan-Poo]

Very unlikely! Only a few weak minded character would agree to such a plot. Eva for instance would never do that. And well of course Battler giving up? There's no way...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

To me, it feels like Battler did indeed have a Grand Plan, but it was not there when he designed the game initially. He had to improvise it in place as the idea occurred to him.

My guess it would be sometime around when Moetrice brought him cookies.

He need not even have a plan up until almost the very moment he's trapped. If nothing else, he doesn't get the idea until the concept of a Logic Error is brought up by Meta-Genji. Any time after that he can be in any combination of having the idea or not having considered it yet.

I do think that, at the time he starts leaning on Beatrice about her old self's ability to create closed rooms, that he's expecting her to try something. His plan could very well be nothing more than that vague hope.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

P.S: The difference between me and Erika is that I love the characters. She wants to incriminate someone at all costs, I think it's possible that no murder ever occurred and I would like it better that way. Just like Battler I'm not comfortable with anyone being a psycho killer. The mass suicide explosion is still okay. But to kill several people, friends and relatives while watching them in the eyes. You must be a total psycho.

I guess I see why your comfortable claiming the bomb is the only murder weapon you need then... Have you ever thought that maybe Ryukishi could present the killer in a way that's interesting, but also deserving of the reader's sympathy? The whole of Chiru is just one big chain of foreshadowing for the biggest North wind and sun strategy for a culprit EVER.

[Renall]

That's gonna be really, really hard at this point. If the killer isn't evil, their reason is gonna have to be damn good.

[Judoh]

Yeah I admit it seems pretty bad at this point, but I want to beleive he can at least make us care for the characters... Even if it is very unlikely for the killer...

[Renall]

I think he may do the opposite. Make us care about everyone - knowing the killer is somewhere in their midst - and then rip our heart out. Make them irredeemable. Terrible. Monstrous. That is Bern's specialty, after all.

Granted that doesn't mean it's necessarily true, so there'd always be ep8 to rehabilitate that person.

[TTR]

I...furudo erika......have duct tape!!!

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I guess I see why your comfortable claiming the bomb is the only murder weapon you need then... Have you ever thought that maybe Ryukishi could present the killer in a way that's interesting, but also deserving of the reader's sympathy? The whole of Chiru is just one big chain of foreshadowing for the biggest North wind and sun strategy for a culprit EVER.

Of course I do think that there might be a killer. You have never really seen me claiming that there's absolutely no culprit. I even advanced a few hypothesis on a possible killer with Krauss, Kyrie and George before.

It's just that... I'm not really convinced...
Just by seeing the end of EP6 you see everyone happy as if everything was resolved and... wait a sec? What was resolved? Did Battler really find the culprit when he learned the truth? And then what he's going to do about that? Shouldn't be he like "now I'm gonna make him pay!" or whatever? Why instead the only thing he cares about is to show how cool he was by understanding the truth?

It seems as if he doesn't care, it seems the only thing he cares about is Beatrice. And I just can't think that Beatrice killed him and all of his family members and he just decides to forgive her. No matter what's his sin, nothing justifies mass murder.

Something is amiss.

[DgBarca]

Spoiler for EP6:

Originally Posted by Erika

I...Furudo Erika...have duct tape!!

Greatest quote ever, not ridiculous at all...no not at all *tries to avoid the trollness*

But I think I get Golden Truth now...and I get how breaking a golden truth with red is horrible, the most horrible troll ever, I can say.

If Golden Truth is really based on trust or love, seeing that this trust/love isn't mutual...hum...this is happening in EP2...Kanon leaving Jessica's room...broke the love, the golden...how cruel. Jessica's has a good motive to kill Kanon. First her parents dies, then her love is crushed...fuck it Kanon...*cackle*cackle*cackle* How genius...

OMG reading too much trolling is bad.

[SilverSyko]

I'm surprised to say this but reading Episode 6 is actually increasing my respect for Erika. Compared to how she was in EP5, she's starting to show qualities that actually make me pity her, and I can't hate a character I have to pity. D=

If there's any bitch in this series now it's Bernkastel. Not that she wasn't much of one before, but now it's really starting to shine through.

EDIT: Aw crap I spoke too soon. I probably should've saw it coming. God damn your trickery Erika! DAMN YOOOOOOOU!!!

[Kaiba]

Utterly marathoned it today, and good god, this was amazing.

Took a lot of notes, and a few things I observed:

Erika was more sympathetic, but good god do I want to strangle the traps. Just shut up already, and the entire love trials with the exception of the final duel and George's battle was simply annoying. Hated it so much.

Kyrie's suspicion went up about 500% from this, especially since part of what she was talking about during her fight was Lambadelta-ish, discussing certainty and all that. George went down a little bit, as he's getting close to being too suspicious for me. Shannon I'm about 80% certain is Beatrice, but at the same time, absolutely certain not the mastermind.

Ange mentioned in one part that Sakutarou was mass-produced, and not an unique doll. That was a surprise.

Regarding Kyrie, I think the theory I've long had with her in Episode 4 - that that wasn't Kyrie on the phone because her behavior when the Siestas shot her down was so weird is pretty much disproven as she did it again when Jessica attacked. That is one problem I'm having with a Kyrie mastermind theory - she's smart, but I'm starting to wonder how good she is at dealing with unexpected setbacks.

Was interesting that the male adults immeadiately cried "closed room" when seeing the FT people. Assuming that the murders were done for Erika's sake as she was prancing about being a detective to a greater degree then previous episodes, then they had no reason to react like they did when she wasn't around.

[TTR]

Hehehehe, I honestly couldn't stop laughing the entire time I was reading this episode.

I mean, I LOVED this episode. But I just couldn't stop laughing because I just imagine Maria on the floor. Like just wriggling around saying "Uu I'm dead uu uu~" pretending to be dead for the first twilight.

And everyone just accepting it hahaha

[Mirrored]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think it's possible that no murder ever occurred and I would like it better that way. Just like Battler I'm not comfortable with anyone being a psycho killer. The mass suicide explosion is still okay. But to kill several people, friends and relatives while watching them in the eyes. You must be a total psycho.

I find this quite naive.

There are plenty of people with great motives for murder. A large part of the whole series is coming to accept that.

Think of some of the lies that are told in the story by various characters. They are not small lies.

[Oliver]

Abstract.

...all that "Acknowledged" reminds me of the situation puzzle with the albatross soup...

Unfortunately, a log of a situation puzzle being solved does not exactly offer sufficient information to solve it, as it may include any number of epiphanies which may be impossible to reproduce. Thus it may be "solvable" but not "solvable for everyone".

That'd be an interesting way to cheat for the author, don't you think?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Mirrored

I find this quite naive.

There are plenty of people with great motives for murder. A large part of the whole series is coming to accept that.

Think of some of the lies that are told in the story by various characters. They are not small lies.

the only lie that can be connected to a criminal offense is the one about Kinzo's death. And yet both Natsuhi and Krauss are said to be "not the culprit" in red.

To think that the other lies would lead to a crime is a very long shot.

[Leafsnail]

Haven't finished yet, but this line really, really, really jumped out at me.

Spoiler for Image:

Seems to be pretty strong evidence in favour of personality death, which would help a lot.

[Oliver]

While I'm reading, constantly distracting to write longer and longer notes, here's one:

• Erika explains her decision to make two rooms by needing excuse to go out to investigate because she lacks detective authority.
• If I'm understanding the Shkanon solution for the logic error correctly, Shkanon is a possible solution for the logic error because Shannon ends up in one room and Kanon ends up in another, so that one of the two is free to act.
• Genius Battler interpretation requires for a solution of the logic error to exist, otherwise there's no hope that Beatrice can find it, whatever she remembers. (And once the situation is strictly reduced to formal logic, it can be strictly proven, so it is possible for Battler to know one exists...)
• But Battler appears to have initially assumed that Erika would dump everyone into a single room. Even if he did not, there is no way for him to ensure that Erika decides to put Shannon and Kanon into different rooms so that one or the other can go save him.
• Which means that if Genius Battler is true, there has to be a solution other than Shkanon which Battler had in mind.