Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Insane

Dude, somehow i feel that your reference for armaments in war is very sadistic and barbaric. Also, isn't wielding hammers in battlefield rather inconvenient? Usually soldiers wield weapon equipped with sharp edge to allow for more damage.

Not necessarily. A lot of heavy weapons used in medieval times used sheer weight to crush the enemy. Examples would be Great-Swords (the blade alone was five feet long), Maces (basically a chunk of metal on a stick), Battle-axes (the big two handed ones, anyway), and War-Hammers (not sure how common they are, but they existed). They were designed to deal with armored foes, so rather that pierce the armor they just smashed him to a pulp. Sometimes literally.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

I think it's so dumb to say that the archers are cowards when the knights wear full body armor that arrow can't penetrate.

One little correction, the strength of the knight of Brune isn't in the full body armor, it's the long shield they have. Basically, the brune knight battle tactic against archer would be charge ahead while protecting themselves and their horse with the long shield.

As for asian country, I think there's a country in the novel world that is modeled from East Asian country, but since it's located far away from the centre of the story, I don't think that country will be explored much.

[Belgaesh]

The crossbow was invented so that the arrows can actually penetrate armor, they have a shorter range than a regular bow but were more powerfull.

I'd like to see how the Knights of Brune would deal against it if it were used in numbers.

[kuroishinigami]

As of vol 1, they already introduce arbalest, but considering how brune knight is still considered strong even with the availability of arbalest, I would think that they won't have much trouble even against arbalest

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

As of vol 1, they already introduce arbalest, but considering how brune knight is still considered strong even with the availability of arbalest, I would think that they won't have much trouble even against arbalest

Not a Brune knight, but a girl with magic sword, lol.

[Insane]

I began to think that probably the strongest point of Briune's army is their sheer number. Remember in Vol 1 where the King of Briune had no qualms to deploy most of armies in his kingdom just to crush enemies which only a fifth number of them?

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Insane

I began to think that probably the strongest point of Briune's army is their sheer number. Remember in Vol 1 where the King of Briune had no qualms to deploy most of armies in his kingdom just to crush enemies which only a fifth number of them?

Come to think of it, isn't Brune supposed to be a representation of Russia? At one scene, they saw a banner which had a unicorn on it, and someone from Brune called it in the Russian form. I think they even used the Russian metric system.

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by XFire

Not necessarily. A lot of heavy weapons used in medieval times used sheer weight to crush the enemy.

Sheer weight is what gets knights slaughtered in Volume 3, during a pseudo-Agincourt skirmish.

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

As of vol 1, they already introduce arbalest, but considering how brune knight is still considered strong even with the availability of arbalest, I would think that they won't have much trouble even against arbalest

In support this argument: Brune's strength lies with their knights and there's still a reason they look down on archers even with the existence of arbalests (plus arbalests are not very common weapons to wield).

Originally Posted by Insane

I began to think that probably the strongest point of Briune's army is their sheer number. Remember in Vol 1 where the King of Briune had no qualms to deploy most of armies in his kingdom just to crush enemies which only a fifth number of them?

More like the King called upon such numbers because it was the Prince's first campaign, and he wanted Regnas to make a good impression on his subjects in order to pave the way for a better transition from him to Regnas. This plot point is the most pivotal of the entire first arc conflict.

They just weren't counting on several things, that's on. Those being:
-Thenaldie and Ganlon conspiring to assassinate the Prince even before the armies encounter each other
-Vanadis Elenore attacking from their rear formation at night, entirely undetected
-Zion being a complete coward

In terms of battle strategy being through sheer numbers, Muozinel has everyone beat.

[Kleeyook]

Originally Posted by Insane

Dude, somehow i feel that your reference for armaments in war is very sadistic and barbaric. Also, isn't wielding hammers in battlefield rather inconvenient? Usually soldiers wield weapon equipped with sharp edge to allow for more damage.

Nahh. Most knights don't use their big ass sword to slash another knight, they use it to crush. I doubt there are many skilled soldiers who could halv human into two pieces. They lost against the Mongols because of gunpowder and getting gangbang.

I don't think it's that barbaric to use fire either, what else could you possibly do against the full plate armored knights who you can't kill with arrow and can crush you easily, acting like they were so noble? Well, I think using fire kinda suck too, since it'd even scare the same side.

It's an act of slaughtering surrendered soldiers and civilians, raping them that I think is barbaric and cruel. Did I even mention about that? Don't just say I'm a closed-mind person like that?

Hell, modern warfare is far more cruel than this. Dark age and mediaval age can never compare to the warfare in WW2.

As for archers being cowards who could only assassinate people from afar, the so called knights having full plate armor that arrow can't penetrate and their shield asking to duel an archer who only has light armor at best seem like a bunch of fucking cowards to me.

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

As for archers being cowards who could only assassinate people from afar, the so called knights having full plate armor that arrow can't penetrate and their shield asking to duel an archer who only has light armor at best seem like a bunch of fucking cowards to me.

You do know that only Zion does this?

[Kleeyook]

Originally Posted by Hemisphere

You do know that only Zion does this?

But isn't the whole discrimination against archers Brune's policy? Just look at how the ransom for Tigre is so high that it's like giving him away to Ellen! Most people in Brune think like that. Don't just limit the bad thing that almost an entire nation does to just one small fly!

Considering that not every archers are as good as Tigre, fighting against knights openly is simply suicidal, yet the knights (especially wealthy people who can afford the armor and weapon in the first place) act like people are dirt when they simply play dirty yet trying to glorify themselves.

Using fire against them is risky too, it's not like flamethrower are safe to use...

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

But isn't the whole discrimination against archers Brune's policy? Just look at how the ransom for Tigre is so high that it's like giving him away to Ellen! Most people in Brune think like that. Don't just limit the bad thing that almost an entire nation does to just one small fly!

Considering that not every archers are as good as Tigre, fighting against knights openly is simply suicidal, yet the knights (especially wealthy people who can afford the armor and weapon in the first place) act like people are dirt when they simply play dirty yet trying to glorify themselves.

Using fire against them is risky too, it's not like flamethrower are safe to use...

It's true that Brune discriminates archers; what I'm saying is that only Zion has the (absolutely retarded and cowardly) guts to challenge Tigre to a duel. The other nobles would rather belittle, miniscule and ridicule Tigre, while the everyday common man of Brune would eye him with suspicion (allying himself with foreign powers, after all).

Even with that, Tigre's skill with the bow as well as potential threat is accurately gauged and respected by his Brune enemies who have the sense to look past the set-in-stone discrimination; the first of whom was Roland the Knight of Knights (who believed that Tigre was as much a monster as he was); second was Thenaldie's second-in-command who, after seeing Tigre's ability with the bow in person, decided that Tigre needed to die right then and there even at the cost of his own life. Even Thenaldie recognized Tigre's threat, noting that there was no way he could get so far and so successful (especially during the Muozinel invasion with 10 to 1 odds against him) with just luck and cooperation.

That behavior (the rich treating the poor like dirt) is not present with everyone. First, only Thenaldie, Ganlon as well as their cronies only espouse that notion (the whole treating their civilian population like shit). Thenaldie even has husbands and wives fight each other with swords (and hold betting games as to who would win), while Ganlon likes to torture them with drowning while wearing a mask. For the rest, they're nowhere near as bad; Tigre, for one, treats his people nicely, and so does Odje (his first aristocrat Brune ally).

Second, not everyone can afford to arm their army with knights. Mostly the rich and powerful nobles (like Dukes Thenaldie and Ganlon) have a lot of knights; their "border guards" are all also knights.

Addendum: You'd be surprised how ingenious Tigre's strategies with his archers when facing against knights get. The knights stand no chance. They can call it dirty for all they want, but it works at the end and that's all that matters.

[ZeKeR]

Originally Posted by Hemisphere

It's true that Brune discriminates archers; what I'm saying is that only Zion has the (absolutely retarded and cowardly) guts to challenge Tigre to a duel. The other nobles would rather belittle, miniscule and ridicule Tigre, while the everyday common man of Brune would eye him with suspicion (allying himself with foreign powers, after all).

EVen with that, Tigre's skill with the bow as well as potential threat is accurately gauged and respected by his Brune enemies who have the sense to look past the set-in-stone discrimination; the first of whom was Roland the Knight of Knights (who believed that Tigre was as much a monster as he was); second was Thenaldie's second-in-command who, after seeing Tigre's ability with the bow in person, decided that Tigre needed to die right then and there even at the cost of his own life. Even Thenaldie recognized Tigre's threat, noting that there was no way he could get so far and so successful (especially during the Muozinel invasion with 10 to 1 odds against him) with just luck and cooperation.

That behavior (the rich treating the poor like dirt) is not present with everyone. First, only Thenaldie, Ganlon as well as their cronies only espouse that notion (the whole treating their civilian population like shit). Thenaldie even has husbands and wives fight each other with swords (and hold betting games as to who would win), while Ganlon likes to torture them with drowning while wearing a mask. For the rest, they're nowhere near as bad; Tigre, for one, treats his people nicely, and so does Odje (his first aristocrat Brune ally).

Second, not everyone can afford to arm their army with knights. Mostly the rich and powerful nobles (like Dukes Thenaldie and Ganlon) have a lot of knights; their "border guards" are all also knights.

that and they pride themselves too much on their armor. now I would like to see their reactions when Tigre 1 hit kills a Brune Knight besides an asshole commander with a modified AP arrow (dunno about his standard quiver of arrows are but since he also hunts, then I guess he may have some incendiary arrows for signal purposes or that fine tip arrows for hunting)
just for the lulz of it.

btw I wonder what Tigre's enemies in Brune would react if the saw him in action unmatched in ranged combat and at the same time having the HVHEAP ability of the black bow.

[Hemisphere]

He doesn't use armor-piercing tips. He just aims at the weak spots of armors. And as said before, they don't just pride themselves on their armor but also with their long shields.

I would say the sight of him shooting down a flying dragon with an arrow shot that was basically a miniature railgun which had the power to send several soldiers around him flat on their asses from the shockwave alone was enough to scare the shit out of those who saw it. Seeing as Zion's men basically threw down their weapons and armor and ran off like sissies after Elenore announced Tigre's kill.

Originally Posted by ZeKeR

btw I wonder what Tigre's enemies in Brune would react if the saw him in action unmatched in ranged combat and at the same time having the HVHEAP ability of the black bow.

Any commander with his wits about them (basically every one of Tigre's enemies past Volume 1) would be impressed and intimidated by the power of the shot. And then take the opportunity to grind Tigre's demoralized army into itty bitty mini pieces down to the last man once Tigre passes out/becomes faint from the strain that shot took from him.

EDIT: I forgot to add one important thing. NO ONE knows of the Bow's power except for Tigre, Elenore, Lyudmila and Sophiya (for the heroes' side, and Drachvach, Voljenoi, Ganlon and Greast for the villains). As far as everyone else is concerned, the dragon was shot down by a Vanadis' power. During the encounter against Roland, only Roland was able to witness the bow's power, and he kept that secret with him to the grave. They're desperately trying to keep it a secret, and for several good reasons.

[Insane]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

Don't just say I'm a closed-mind person like that

My apologize. I didn't mean offensive nor insulting on my previous post, i just felt shocked by your reference of armaments in war.

Originally Posted by Hemisphere

EDIT: I forgot to add one important thing. NO ONE knows of the Bow's power except for Tigre, Elenore, Lyudmila and Sophiya (for the heroes' side, and Drachvach, Voljenoi, Ganlon and Greast for the villains). As far as everyone else is concerned, the dragon was shot down by a Vanadis' power. During the encounter against Roland, only Roland was able to witness the bow's power, and he kept that secret with him to the grave. They're desperately trying to keep it a secret, and for several good reasons.

Kinda reminds me of a certain MC with golden swords where his abilities being kept a secret. BTW, in order to activate Tigre's black bow, what kind of conditions he must meet?

[NeutralZero]

So what were the several reasons to keep it a secret?

[ZeKeR]

Originally Posted by Hemisphere

He doesn't use armor-piercing tips. He just aims at the weak spots of armors. And as said before, they don't just pride themselves on their armor but also with their long shields.

I would say the sight of him shooting down a flying dragon with an arrow shot that was basically a miniature railgun which had the power to send several soldiers around him flat on their asses from the shockwave alone was enough to scare the shit out of those who saw it. Seeing as Zion's men basically threw down their weapons and armor and ran off like sissies after Elenore announced Tigre's kill.



Any commander with his wits about them (basically every one of Tigre's enemies past Volume 1) would be impressed and intimidated by the power of the shot. And then take the opportunity to grind Tigre's demoralized army into itty bitty mini pieces down to the last man once Tigre passes out/becomes faint from the strain that shot took from him.

EDIT: I forgot to add one important thing. NO ONE knows of the Bow's power except for Tigre, Elenore, Lyudmila and Sophiya (for the heroes' side, and Drachvach, Voljenoi, Ganlon and Greast for the villains). As far as everyone else is concerned, the dragon was shot down by a Vanadis' power. During the encounter against Roland, only Roland was able to witness the bow's power, and he kept that secret with him to the grave. They're desperately trying to keep it a secret, and for several good reasons.

if lulz dictate, he COULD amp the explosion level to a MOAB if he technically owns the bow since his ancestor just pretty much attached a nuke to a normal bow, but I doubt the condition Tigre is in despite having the bow mastery... err... "passive skill" learned, he's gonna fade from that shot alone but at the expense of wiping out the command area and routing the enemy.

I thought he'd use assorted arrows like AP (didn't Mila provide him with a frost arrow or did she simply enchant some arrows of his?) or incendiary but if a normal steel point thats used for hunting is nocked to the Black Bow, it may very well be a round for a freakin' railgun. I'll assume that he's using bodkin points to reach that ZOMGWTF range or the broader one like that of a crossbow albeit a bit heavy on the ballistics

and what exactly was the maximum range Tigre could even reach with his near god-like (Tir Na Fa, you like it, don't you?) archery skill? and could the bow simply be a railgun without the boom?

I believe that the conditions that activated the bow's ability of x2 range and HVHEAP is his blood literally on the bow. in v5 he... kinda didn't need that condition seeing as it just went with his emotions.

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by Insane

BTW, in order to activate Tigre's black bow, what kind of conditions he must meet?

On its own: As of Volume 5 (and subtly hinted as far back as Volume 1), overwhelming negative emotions are what stirs the Black Bow to react and gather power.

With Viralt aid: Vanadis has to be around Tigre, and/or have some sympathy/affection for him.

Originally Posted by NeutralZero

So what were the several reasons to keep it a secret?

First off: remember that what Tigre holds in his hands is a weapon that can call upon its own power, or compel Viralts into lending their power to it. With that in mind, try imagining:

1. How the other Vanadis might react. Remember that Vanadis are special not just because of their Viralts but also of their positions (directly below the King's in authority and above everyone else).
2. How Brune itself might regard Tigre.
3. How the other countries might regard Tigre, and by extension Brune.

Originally Posted by ZeKeR

if lulz dictate, he COULD amp the explosion level to a MOAB if he technically owns the bow since his ancestor just pretty much attached a nuke to a normal bow, but I doubt the condition Tigre is in despite having the bow mastery... err... "passive skill" learned, he's gonna fade from that shot alone but at the expense of wiping out the command area and routing the enemy.

I thought he'd use assorted arrows like AP (didn't Mila provide him with a frost arrow or did she simply enchant some arrows of his?) or incendiary but if a normal steel point thats used for hunting is nocked to the Black Bow, it may very well be a round for a freakin' railgun. I'll assume that he's using bodkin points to reach that ZOMGWTF range or the broader one like that of a crossbow albeit a bit heavy on the ballistics

and what exactly was the maximum range Tigre could even reach with his near god-like (Tir Na Fa, you like it, don't you?) archery skill? and could the bow simply be a railgun without the boom?

He is NOWHERE near being able to fire a nuke. This has been repeated and reiterated time and time again. Nowhere. Near. Nuke levels. The best he can manage on his own to his extent is something destructively similar to Elenore's Ley Admos before nearly collapsing from absolute exhaustion. Taking out just a few tens of soldiers before passing out and rendering your entire army helpless due to lack of command and low morale seems like a completely horrible tradeoff, one that Tigre himself knows. Not to mention that, even if by some god-given slim miracle he does win, he would have ended up exposing the Bow's power and be on everyone's hit list.

He doesn't use assorted arrows. The Viralts lend their power to whatever arrow is being nocked by Tigre at the time.

The Black Bow's power on its own has yet to be explored. The farthest range it has ever reached was during Volume 1, with Elen's Viralt's aid, as it fired so high it shot through a cloud.

[ZeKeR]

Originally Posted by Hemisphere

On its own: As of Volume 5 (and subtly hinted as far back as Volume 1), overwhelming negative emotions are what stirs the Black Bow to react and gather power.

With Viralt aid: Vanadis has to be around Tigre, and/or have some sympathy/affection for him.



First off: remember that what Tigre holds in his hands is a weapon that can call upon its own power, or compel Viralts into lending their power to it. With that in mind, try imagining:

1. How the other Vanadis might react. Remember that Vanadis are special not just because of their Viralts but also of their positions (directly below the King's in authority and above everyone else).
2. How Brune itself might regard Tigre.
3. How the other countries might regard Tigre, and by extension Brune.



He is NOWHERE near being able to fire a nuke. This has been repeated and reiterated time and time again. Nowhere. Near. Nuke levels. The best he can manage on his own to his extent is something destructively similar to Elenore's Ley Admos before nearly collapsing from absolute exhaustion. Taking out just a few tens of soldiers before passing out and rendering your entire army helpless due to lack of command and low morale seems like a completely horrible tradeoff, one that Tigre himself knows. Not to mention that, even if by some god-given slim miracle he does win, he would have ended up exposing the Bow's power and be on everyone's hit list.

He doesn't use assorted arrows. The Viralts lend their power to whatever arrow is being nocked by Tigre at the time.

The Black Bow's power on its own has yet to be explored. The farthest range it has ever reached was during Volume 1, with Elen's Viralt's aid, as it fired so high it shot through a cloud.

so that means whenever he's fighting alongside a Vanadis the respective viralt will simply coat the nocked arrow with elemental energy? its like he's carrying a dip for arrow coatings. Versatile as fuck, indeed. so this means that Ellen can pretty much turn Tigre into a walking sniper that's carrying something that can say hi in 2 miles+ since you say they shot through a cloud (no wind blast at point of impact? XD).

I wonder what would happen if he founded a school of Archery without the freakin' discrimination of his own countrymen...

[Hemisphere]

If they could just chuuni shounen magic their way through opposition without an ounce of effort or struggle, I would've dropped this series in a heartbeat.

Just because they have power, doesn't mean they get to abuse it. No one is also invincible even if they have access to powers.