2012-05-13, 03:52 | Link #28801 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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My biggest objection to the Genius battler theory is that it directly contradicts the narration -
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Secondly, Battler's pre-murder-reveal solution isn't incredibly mundane - he hides in the closet, Erika goes and checks the bathroom because it sounds like something is happening in there, and while she's distracted Battler leaves. That's a perfectly valid trick considering Erika isn't the detective anymore, and it'd fit just fine in games 1-4 - the Battler from episodes 1-4 would have been completely flummoxed. He's forced to keep changing and changing his trick because he continually underestimated Erika(both her intelligence and her willingness to "go the extra mile", so to speak). And the answer to "why three rooms" is the one that Erika points out - he stops short of giving her enough tape to prevent all of the corpses from the first twilight pulling a disappearing act. As for the retroactive killing, Battler was entirely aware that Erika had inspected the corpses. He was just stunned when he discovered that her inspection involved a murder. Also, he wasn't surprised about Erika going for a logic error at all - his exact reaction is "...........I know. ......So, you're after a logic error." which doesn't sound all that surprising to me. Last edited by Vnonymous; 2012-05-13 at 03:53. Reason: Extraneous punctuation. |
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2012-05-13, 04:01 | Link #28803 | |||
The True Culprit
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Also, Featherine doesn't know the truth, so BATTLER COULD trick her. Quote:
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2012-05-13, 05:14 | Link #28805 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Where exactly does Ryukishi lie to the reader? The fantasy version of events isn't a "lie" - that is the game that Beatrice/Lambda/Battler/Bern is presenting, and is technically the truth(until a competing theory comes along). Individual characters lie all the time, but those lies are eventually revealed. While Umineko doesn't follow Van Dine's commandments particularly well,
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And that's the fundamental problem with the Genius Battler theory - it destroys the game in the manner that Knox's decalogue is meant to prevent. When you cannot trust the internal narration of the main character, you cannot trust anything else! Saying that Battler's monologues during those scenes are just lies means that I can just say that all of Episode 6 was a lie, and that Episode 6 was actually the story of Purupurupiko-man going to Rokkenjima for a holiday. I'd be perfectly willing to accept the genius battler theory if we were never explicitly told in the text that it was wrong - but we are. As for mundanity, a corpse disappearing from a sealed room isn't actually boring or dull - just easily seen through by Erika. |
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2012-05-13, 05:18 | Link #28806 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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2012-05-13, 06:36 | Link #28808 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Also a hint from EP8: Quote:
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2012-05-13, 07:03 | Link #28809 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Anyway, I don't believe in Genius Battler myself. I can't see Battler as being that manipulative and intelligent to be able to pull it off. Plus it takes all the excitement out of EP6's narrative. Quote:
Also, after Erika challenged Battler, it didn't matter how 'mundane' the solution was; he just had to prove that it was solvable and that he hadn't messed up. Erika had already forfeited the opportunity to solve it herself by making the accusation that it was unsolvable, so it didn't matter how easy it would have been for her to figure it out if she'd continued. |
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2012-05-13, 07:21 | Link #28810 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Again... it's either Incompetent Battler or Genius Battler. There are no middle ways ("creativity error"? Seriously?). But if Battler is really just dumb, then the end of EP5 was meaningless. The build up of EP6 about how "The witches game made Battler smarter" would be disregarded, because the logic error scene did make Battler look as if he is more stupid than he was in EP1-4.
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2012-05-13, 07:50 | Link #28811 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Also I do think that trick might have been pulled off better if it was for the retroactive changes. As well that Battler might have had better tricks later on. |
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2012-05-13, 07:56 | Link #28812 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Germany
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a) she can't switch personalities at will, as it seems b) she doesn't carry over memories from one persona to the other c) she can't "erase" them deliberately d) she doesn't have two personalities at the same time "active" so they can have conversations xD but we can always argue against this in Umineko with meta/all being a written fiction/whatever And I sure as hell hope she doesn't plan on doing some crazy murder (game) oO
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2012-05-13, 07:59 | Link #28813 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 30
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The problem I find with people completely disregarding the logic-error as Battler's plan
is that it would render Battler's talk about not telling chick-Beato so he could hold onto a miracle entirely without a resolution or a point in general. So he just didn't tell and thought a miracle would happen to make her remember? That's not how miracles in Umineko work. How he got to that point, that he planned everything to a tee I have a real hard time believing, but the end result he worked towards was still the same. That's my two cents. |
2012-05-13, 08:04 | Link #28814 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Germany
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I'm kinda bored with your "rhetorical" questions, so I'd prefer not to reply to questions that are apparently aimed at making the other person look "wrong". =D You're welcome to state what you have to retort if that's what you want or you leave it be. Also, I never got a decent explanation as to why Will, who obviously KNEW the answer and the truth behind it all, was honestly flabbergasted and didn't know what was going on when Shannon pulled off the BSOD and refused to get Kanon... And how that was likened to a checkmate...?
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Last edited by Saorin; 2012-05-13 at 10:49. |
2012-05-13, 08:06 | Link #28815 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But.... well maybe I go on after all xD You mean like the game also told us that "Battler could have said the names of the people in the cousins' room in red"? Or Battler's thought process in EP5 where he was directed to the gold by kinzo? Yes, in chiru Battler always shared his real thoughts with us....... NOT. |
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2012-05-13, 08:32 | Link #28816 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I mean c'mon. If we applied mystery rules to everything in the meta world things would get pretty stupid |
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2012-05-13, 09:39 | Link #28817 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I see EP6 as being very similar to EP3 on a meta level. Banquet is a game where the game master invited Eva-Beatrice onto the board, pretended to actually be in danger from her, and exploited her as a prop in a performance for her real opponent's benefit before killing her off. This is pretty much exactly what I think Battler did for EP6, with Erika being the invited enemy and Beatrice being the real opponent. Isn't Beatrice the one who does most of the actual investigation?
Regarding falsehoods in the meta narration, I think it's very easy to forget that the meta events of this game are not being Read by someone who knows the truth of the story. Ange can make mistakes and misinterpret things in the text she's looking at.
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2012-05-13, 10:06 | Link #28818 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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My mistake. Apologies.
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Discussion before Ange and Featherine start reading Dawn: Featherine: "In the past, I observed the Fragments through Battler's eyes. ......However, now that he has succeeded the position of Game Master, he is not a suitable observer. I am following this tale with true and earnest intentions. It would be such a waste to observe it through the eyes of Battler as he is now, like reading a detective novel backwards..." Ange: ".........So. ...you want me to read your new picture book aloud to you...?" So yes, it does take the excitement out and that's precisely why we don't get to see Battler's true thoughts. Quote:
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2012-05-13, 14:05 | Link #28819 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Maybe not the right thread but this question did cross my mind at times, and I wonder what other people think. Who is the most intelligent character in Umineko? Beatrice? Erika? Will?
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