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Old 2018-10-01, 05:02   Link #9561
Ithekro
Gamilas Rises
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 43
Sometimes Blizzard listens to the meme of the fan base (actually they always listen to those). But having Claudia Christian voicing a knife made flesh is probably one of the best things.
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Old 2018-10-02, 13:34   Link #9562
Senpuu
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Anyone waiting for Classic WoW?
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Old 2018-10-02, 20:49   Link #9563
Kyero Fox
Tastes Cloudy
 
 
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No? lol

Classic WoW is a nice idea on Paper. but give it a month or two and it'll be dead.
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Old 2018-10-02, 21:39   Link #9564
Malichai
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I’ll save judgement until I play the demo when it’s available during Blizzcon, but if it’s the exact copy and paste it’ll crash and burn before it even comes out.
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Old 2018-10-02, 22:16   Link #9565
Last Sinner
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It will happen when people realise that only 2-3 loots dropped per boss for 40 person raids (aka NOT personal loot), that PvP rank grinds where WAY more time intensive, that gold was near impossible to earn, mat gathering was a lot harder, etc. If they don't make any changes for the better, they're deluded.
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Old 2018-10-02, 22:29   Link #9566
Malichai
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Not to mention that so many classes/specs are so useless if they intend to keep it the same. Warriors will only tank, pallies are only there to buff blessings, shamans/druids only good for battle rez, etc. Also, many zones don’t have enough quests to level you up before you can move on to the next one, which will require you to grind out those levels killing mobs for hours.
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Old 2018-10-02, 22:51   Link #9567
Kyero Fox
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The first time a Paladin item drops for the horde, they're gonna REEEEE

and lets face it. 80% of the Vanilla fanbase is Horde fanboys.
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Old 2018-10-07, 11:22   Link #9568
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
No? lol

Classic WoW is a nice idea on Paper. but give it a month or two and it'll be dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malichai View Post
Iíll save judgement until I play the demo when itís available during Blizzcon, but if itís the exact copy and paste itíll crash and burn before it even comes out.
Is that why there are many private servers for Classic that have been going strong for years, which lead to Blizzard deciding to do their own Classic servers in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
It will happen when people realise that only 2-3 loots dropped per boss for 40 person raids (aka NOT personal loot), that PvP rank grinds where WAY more time intensive, that gold was near impossible to earn, mat gathering was a lot harder, etc. If they don't make any changes for the better, they're deluded.
No, changing this to be like live would make it die. People WANT a challenge. They WANT something that feels like they earned it and that they worked for it. Handing out loot like candy on Halloween is a large part of what's killing the live servers. That and the lack of community/toxicity of what's left of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
The first time a Paladin item drops for the horde, they're gonna REEEEE

and lets face it. 80% of the Vanilla fanbase is Horde fanboys.
Let's face it. You're pulling nonsensical numbers out of nowhere.
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Old 2018-10-07, 12:27   Link #9569
Malichai
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Private servers are free to play, people will play and praise it to heaven just because they don’t have to pay for it. When they have to pay monthly to play it, they’ll sing a different tune.
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Old 2018-10-07, 18:01   Link #9570
Keila
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If 'classic' ends up having a once-off upfront cost (like pretty much every other Blizzard game: Overwatch, Starcraft, Diablo, etc) it will get more than enough player-pool to sustain it.


If it ends up having an on-going sub cost (which is fairly irrational when you consider they're not going to put in any more 'dev time' short of getting it up and running) it will be dead-on-arrival.


These days, games like Overwatch are great for 'drop-in, drop out' type gameplay for people who are time poor. WoW just offers this in the form of an 'RPG', where (despite how old it is) there actually is meaningful storylines (see quest chains, multiple zones). Being an RPG it actually lets you work towards your character (no matter how long it takes) and being Blizzard you can more or less assume that even a decade later your character will still be there (refer to older blizzard games that are still supported).

+ People can drop in/out of Battlegrounds with a similar queue time to Overwatch
+ People can run dungeons, explore the world, group up with others like in Diablo
+ People can just run around the world, go 'fishing' or just mess around with toys/other items.



One of the most 'profitable' things to do in WoW (risk:effort:reward) was to simply be a 'key holder' for UBRS (back in the day)

+ You could just 'chill out' around BRM (cross-road for BRD, LBRS, UBRS, MC, BWL) and engage in organic PvP (as organic as farming people trying to get into instances is)
+ You could open the UBRS door for a fee (even if it was only a few gold) and this is potentially insanely lucrative once you become 'well known' on your server as someone willing to do so
+ You could (subject to class) more or less always get into a group for UBRS if you wanted a change of pace.



Whether 'classic' succeeds (as a long term thing) or not fundamentally depends on

+ Price of admission (an on-going 'sub' will kill it off, a once-off upfront cost even at the cost of a full price AAA game will make an absolute killing)
+ How 'realms' and zones are handled. Cross-realm (server mixing, outside of battlegrounds) will kill it
+ How well 'social connectivity' is handled (even if this means manually forming groups via trade-chat). Any sort of LFR/dungeon finder via the UI as the primary mechanism undermines social interaction (i.e. having to talk to people, having to build friendships)
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Old 2018-10-08, 05:09   Link #9571
aohige
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
No, changing this to be like live would make it die. People WANT a challenge. They WANT something that feels like they earned it and that they worked for it. Handing out loot like candy on Halloween is a large part of what's killing the live servers. That and the lack of community/toxicity of what's left of it.
The idea that Vanilla was more challenging than current content is a rose-tinted myth.

What was challenging was getting 40 people to be properly ready for it (resist gear, attunements, etc), not to mention organizing such numbers with little to no tools provided.

As for player skill and mechanics, WoW has increasingly become more complex and challenging on the end progression, not the other way around. Mythic raid endbosses are far, far more complex and challenging than say, Onyxia or Ragnaros ever was.
(Well, excluding bosses like Yogg-saron and others who were initially scaled to impossible by poor dev designs. )

WoW has probably the most diverse tiers of difficulty, which is both a blessing and a curse. Most of the player base have no idea what lies at the top progression, nor do they understand the differences in four different tiers of raid difficulty. (although in practicality there are only three)

With the addition of Mythic+ dungeons (which, IMO, are one of the best thing to happen to WoW in ten years) the scaling of difficulty to different tiers of players have infinitely increased as well.

What Classic had going for it is the smaller community of dedicated players, and the social circles it created. You felt more connected to your community since they were much more of a tight-nit circle.
While this has diminished as the game evolved to become more casual friendly, it's not completely gone. You simply have to find the right guild to play with.

In fact, finding a good guild with friendly and patient people is the most important thing you can do in WoW, period. In any era of its incarnation. Fortunately I'm in one such guild, we run Mythic+ and raids almost every day and there is a place and position for everyone, be it based on your skill tier or work schedule.
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Old 2018-10-08, 18:31   Link #9572
Keila
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Whether something is/is not a challenge is entirely subjective (and there's no productive way to discuss this). The "challenging" part of a Wedding is the planning phase and all the preparation work that goes into it, rather than the actual event on the day of the wedding and yet no-one is going to claim that a wedding was easy just because there was no failures on the day of the event. You could argue that in retail WoW there are potentially more game mechanics a player needs to be aware of and more mechanics present over the course of a fight but that has nothing to do with the 'challenge'.

Even with all the changes to raid tiers/dungeon difficulties (and the number of mechanics present on a boss fight for any different difficulty) it ultimately still comes down to

+ What time/effort you are willing to put in to get the minimum stats required to be successful (regardless of whether you're successful or not)
+ What time/effort are you willing to put in to understand the fight mechanics (and then execute whatever plan it is you have)

The difference between the very top and very bottom are not as far apart as people would like to believe. If you just 'handed out' the same gear that the top end raiders had (at the time they attempted whatever content is being used as a reference point) and somehow gave the bottom end raiders the same amount of dedication to learning and executing a fight the difference would be minuscule. They're not going to be perfect (because the execution is what gauges whether you succeed or fail). The biggest 'difference' is simply the amount of time/effort each end of the spectrum is willing to commit.

Classic had a 'server community' regardless of whether you had a guild or not. You could be a solo player and have that sense of community, of belonging on your server. It's not different to 'school' in that sense, you're inevitably going to be stuck with the same people day in, day out regardless of whether you're friends or not, in the same social circles or not and inevitable will know of the others existence. Retail doesn't have this anymore due to the LFR/dungeon finder etc (that's not even beginning to factor in the bs that comes with certain add-ons). There's no opportunity to make a name for yourself in general terms. With the exception of cross-realm BG's towards the end (which is where the server identity started to die) you engaged strictly within the 'society' of your server.

+ You got to know the 'end-game' raiders as they chilled out at the AH/mailboxes in OG/IF
+ You'd duel one another to pass time (or you'd spectate)
+ You'd get involved in conversations inevitably because '/say' would reach countless players in close proximity
+ You'd get into pugs and establish connections regardless of your progression status because inevitably 'alts' needed to be geared up and attunements kept content relevant for alts,
+ BRM (as mentioned previously) for PvP servers and since everyone you saw was server specific you're sure as hell going to remember if the opposite faction guilds are being a pain, or you have friendlies who saved you a corpse run and you were thankful for it.

In the 'retail' environment, relationships outside of your guild have very little meaning or substance with minimal incentive to form a positive or negative relationship. In the vanilla world (prior to cross-realm) the relationships were everything, within your own faction and the opponents faction. World bosses (even on PvE realms) were especially subject to friendly/hostile relations and 'being a tool' (like ganking someone's alt) would start guild wars (kill on sight mentality). Even a solo player had the power to influence events on a grand scale (should they wish to do so)


The 'world' was a smaller place back in the day, where people actually invested into relationships (within their guild and outside), essentially it was the world before 'social media' became a thing.
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Old 2018-10-08, 19:57   Link #9573
GDB
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
The idea that Vanilla was more challenging than current content is a rose-tinted myth.

What was challenging was getting 40 people to be properly ready for it (resist gear, attunements, etc), not to mention organizing such numbers with little to no tools provided.

As for player skill and mechanics, WoW has increasingly become more complex and challenging on the end progression, not the other way around. Mythic raid endbosses are far, far more complex and challenging than say, Onyxia or Ragnaros ever was.
Look at the context of my post. I wasn't saying WoW isn't/can't be challenging now. I was saying that applying current models such as handing out loot like candy, making PvP ranks easy to get, making gold meaningless, and gathering professions useless is NOT a "change for the better" for Classic.

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Originally Posted by Keila View Post
*snip*
I don't want to repost the entire thing, but very well said.
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Old 2018-10-09, 00:19   Link #9574
aohige
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Look at the context of my post. I wasn't saying WoW isn't/can't be challenging now. I was saying that applying current models such as handing out loot like candy, making PvP ranks easy to get, making gold meaningless, and gathering professions useless is NOT a "change for the better" for Classic.
I'm not going to say you don't have a point, and "loot on a silver platter" model certainly has negative motivation.

But also have a flexible outlook: the reason for Blizzard raining down gear is to precisely ease the problem of strict gating.
It is FAR less problematic to gather large quantity of players and get attuned for raiding now.

Compared to 10 years ago, it's like infinitely easier to put together a guild group for raiding nights now than it ever has been. We have FIVE raid nights a week, with two different progression groups. Outside of our Mythic raiding team, it's very flexible to accommodate players into a raiding schedule fit for their available time. That is because gear for entry raid level is being given out like candies. (Now, actually DOWNING the boss is a different creature all together, of course. That requires skill and communication, and not JUST gear)

What I'm saying is, just try to set aside your already pre-determined negative outlook and just TRY and think this objectively.
There are both pros and cons to the situation and you are vehemently denying to look for the opposing end of the logic.
This isn't an argument for "which is better, Vanilla or Live". That's your argument, not mine. To me they are different, and the changes were inevitable.
Providing both high end challenges AND also accommodating casual players is the prime reason why WoW has been sitting on that throne for an entire decade while every other MMO attempts has been systematically murdered by it. (well that, and just the sheer volume of content of course.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
The difference between the very top and very bottom are not as far apart as people would like to believe. If you just 'handed out' the same gear that the top end raiders had (at the time they attempted whatever content is being used as a reference point) and somehow gave the bottom end raiders the same amount of dedication to learning and executing a fight the difference would be minuscule. They're not going to be perfect (because the execution is what gauges whether you succeed or fail). The biggest 'difference' is simply the amount of time/effort each end of the spectrum is willing to commit.
I don't understand this logic. If experience, skillset, and awareness does not define challenge, then what in the blazing hell do you consider it?
Also, "if they have gear they'll just do better" is untrue. Because of the multiple different progression paths, gear level difference between players are very small nowadays. (as you two point out, it's due to the giving loot like candy syndrome)

Let's give an example. I am doing heroic progression at late ilv 360s right now. With other competent players in my guild we regularly run successful +8 +9 Mythic+, although 10 has always been a challenging wall.
However, there are plenty of players - majority I would even say - who are either right at 360s or little below, that completely fail to do even low key runs. Player's own skill absolutely is the wall that separates players, and yes, that is largely dependent on: communication, experience, and willingness to learn.

Hell there were relatively significant portion of playerbase that bitched back in WoD that getting Silver in Proving Grounds as requirement to queue into heroic LFD a too high a hurdle to overcome.
There is a suprisingly large portion of WoW playerbase with very low skillset. Overgearing only helps a little, many of these people will never be able to do high Mythic+ keys regardless of how good their gear is. And the argument that "well if they were dedicated and willing to learn they won't suck that bad" is utterly irrelevant. If I worked out like hell and trained I'm sure I can be athletic but I am not now am I!? *looks down at my beer belly*

All that being said, I do agree that balancing rewards fit for the difficulty is well, difficult. I will also agree that Blizzard isn't doing a particularly good job at it.
But at the same time that carrot on the stick has to be there for entire player base somehow, and tiering the difficulties and rewards is pretty much the only viable solution they have.

tl;dr TITAN FORGING NEEDS TO GO. That shit is elevating the problem.
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Old 2018-10-09, 03:23   Link #9575
Keila
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Not meaning to take away from Mythic+ accomplishments, but can anyone realistically claim without a shred of doubt that another player with the same time/effort commitment, knowledge and ability to execute (i.e. no competing against people with disabilities like missing an arm, or blind) would not be able to achieve the same outcome?

You can claim that some people with the same gear level will fail at the same content but it is insanely doubtful that the majority of players will even be putting in the same amount of time/effort that you are (especially if you consider yourself to be in the higher % of players as far as capabilities are concerned) in scripted content that requires very little decision making capabilities.



There's nothing challenging about being able to stick to a script, following routine until the inevitably outcome. PvP (conceptually) is more challenging than PvE because it is unscripted. What differentiates between people (in a meaningful way) is how they react when everything falls about, not when everything goes as planned, as expected. Alpha GO (the google AI) fundamentally wipes the floor against all human opponents, not because it can make moves that the humans can't but because there is a 'knowledge gap' between the machine and man. If you had the AI compete against an exact replica of itself however it'd statistically end up as 50:50.


Objectively, there's nothing more challenging now about the game (retail) than there was in Vanilla (despite all the changes). As I said before though there's no productive way to discuss this that would result in uniform agreement.
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Old 2018-10-09, 04:35   Link #9576
aohige
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Originally Posted by Keila View Post
Not meaning to take away from Mythic+ accomplishments, but can anyone realistically claim without a shred of doubt that another player with the same time/effort commitment, knowledge and ability to execute (i.e. no competing against people with disabilities like missing an arm, or blind) would not be able to achieve the same outcome?

You can claim that some people with the same gear level will fail at the same content but it is insanely doubtful that the majority of players will even be putting in the same amount of time/effort that you are (especially if you consider yourself to be in the higher % of players as far as capabilities are concerned) in scripted content that requires very little decision making capabilities.
Again, how is that anyway relevant? That's like saying "I have the potential to play in the NBA if I got off my ass and practice basketball."
Eh, sure man, what does that even prove? The issue is, those players did NOT put in effort, time, commitment and practice. The fact that in alternate reality they could, means absolutely nothing.

Moreover, Vanilla or Live isn't gonna change that situation.
In fact, there were even less activities for casual players in the early days, unlike Legion and on having content tiers designed for everyone.

Quote:
There's nothing challenging about being able to stick to a script, following routine until the inevitably outcome. PvP (conceptually) is more challenging than PvE because it is unscripted. What differentiates between people (in a meaningful way) is how they react when everything falls about, not when everything goes as planned, as expected. Alpha GO (the google AI) fundamentally wipes the floor against all human opponents, not because it can make moves that the humans can't but because there is a 'knowledge gap' between the machine and man. If you had the AI compete against an exact replica of itself however it'd statistically end up as 50:50.


Objectively, there's nothing more challenging now about the game (retail) than there was in Vanilla (despite all the changes). As I said before though there's no productive way to discuss this that would result in uniform agreement.
Eh

How long have you been gone from the game?
You do realize with the vastly different mechanic of dungeon affixes that randomize every week, the combination literally changes how you do the dungeons every week. They are incredibly punishing, and synergize with each other. It's not a "follow the script and do exactly this to beat this dungeon". You have to suffer through multiple instances of the dungeon with the suffixes, and plan out how you're going to beat that specific instance in time. (this week for example, we got four varying different keys for the Temple of Sethralis, from +7 to +10. Because we were lucky to do them four times, our strategy for this week on this specific dungeon got better and better. Temple may be easier or harder next week, and will require different strategy)

You make it sound like we're mindless drones without agency. Do you have ANY experiences in high keys?? At Mythic +10 you get FOUR of these affixes.
One week your affixes might be "gain increasing dots while under 90% health, must be topped off every second, and there are also stacking dots on the tank with every autoattack of the mobs". Next week it may be a combination of "double the mobs, double the HP. You must pick and choose your fight or you will run out of time". Etc, etc. Some combinations of affixes can be absolutely lethal, while others managable.

It's not a "do this exact thing to beat this dungeon lol". I mean, what you're claiming is essentially no different than those guys who talk mighty in the General Forums saying "lol you're just good at doing the same shit over and over. I could totally do it if I try. Totally." without anything to show for.

Through both of these posts, I have a feeling you're unfamiliar with the end game systems.
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Old 2018-10-09, 04:54   Link #9577
MeoTwister5
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I would actually have to ask:

In terms of how Legion handled gear prog and the way it handed out rewards, how different is BfA?

As someone who played BC and Wrath pre-Ulduar and left due to medical school, Legion was something of a culture shock to me for probably obvious reasons. I have to say that in terms of carrot on a stick, but not having the time to actually play top tier content and was relegated to LFR, I honestly got bored of playing Legion most days because I couldn't really find a middle ground of content to find engaging. Some days I ended up just doing dailies and weeklies for gear before logging out. Heck I'm pretty sure I finished the wings of LFR Antorus on my first try. I seriously just couldn't find that content that kept me coming back aside from the usual timed chores. I honestly felt like they gave out loot too much too early too fast and didn't have something more engaging for people like me who simply can't commit to high end content.

Heck, I even preordered BfA, but never actually played a minute of it because I just couldn't find the will to play and plop down money just to be bored again. I'm still looking for something to convince me to give BfA a shot and hope it isn't more of the same, though right now I can't realistically play due to me preparing for a major examination, but I'm still looking to be convinced that I didn't waste $50 for an expac I still haven't touched.
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Old 2018-10-09, 05:03   Link #9578
aohige
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I would actually have to ask:

In terms of how Legion handled gear prog and the way it handed out rewards, how different is BfA?

As someone who played BC and Wrath pre-Ulduar and left due to medical school, Legion was something of a culture shock to me for probably obvious reasons. I have to say that in terms of carrot on a stick, but not having the time to actually play top tier content and was relegated to LFR, I honestly got bored of playing Legion most days because I couldn't really find a middle ground of content to find engaging. Some days I ended up just doing dailies and weeklies for gear before logging out. Heck I'm pretty sure I finished the wings of LFR Antorus on my first try. I seriously just couldn't find that content that kept me coming back aside from the usual timed chores. I honestly felt like they gave out loot too much too early too fast and didn't have something more engaging for people like me who simply can't commit to high end content.

Heck, I even preordered BfA, but never actually played a minute of it because I just couldn't find the will to play and plop down money just to be bored again. I'm still looking for something to convince me to give BfA a shot and hope it isn't more of the same, though right now I can't realistically play due to me preparing for a major examination, but I'm still looking to be convinced that I didn't waste $50 for an expac I still haven't touched.
Unfortunately LFR isn't designed to keep you captivated, it's a loot pinata for those who cannot raid due to various reason. Be it work schedule, skill, or even social anxiety.

Best thing you could do is find a guild that is both friendly and have raid nights that fits your schedule. Do you have a constantly changing schedule, or do you have specific nights that you can raid? I can only raid weekend nights, so I researched and found an all-working adult guild that has two raid nights on Sat/Sun. Been with them since beginning of Legion.

If you are too busy in real life due to exams, I don't think MMO is a healthy choice to be honest.

As for differences, BfA is pretty much following the Legion mold. Warfront is a once in a month event so it will not give you any more significant entertainment, and Island Expedition is kinda boring.
Mythic+ is where it's at as far as non-raid content that's challenging and changing every week, but it may not be enough to hold your interest unless you have a fun group of friends you run them with.
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Old 2018-10-09, 05:09   Link #9579
MeoTwister5
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Working in a hospital and studying for your progressive career certification doesn't exactly leave one with enough brain processing for more complicated tasks.

Eh... if BfA is more of the same... will probably give it a shot after my exam. Need to at least justify those 50 bucks I spent.
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Old 2018-10-09, 06:09   Link #9580
GDB
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
This isn't an argument for "which is better, Vanilla or Live". That's your argument, not mine.
No, my argument is if you want Live, play Live. Don't mess with Classic because you want your thing twice and the people who want the other thing to have nothing.

Your being the subjective your, not you specifically.

And other MMOs have the same basic loot structure. They fail because they're TOO similar to WoW. Why play another game that's basically the same game when you already played that game and have all the stuff already?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
In fact, there were even less activities for casual players in the early days, unlike Legion and on having content tiers designed for everyone.
Early days it'd take months of not quite casual but somewhat casual leveling to hit level 60. Now you can go from 1 to whatever the cap was in Draenor (last I played) in less than a week of the same degree of grinding. Maybe 2 weeks if you don't have the exp boost gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Through both of these posts, I have a feeling you're unfamiliar with the end game systems.
On that same token, I feel you're out of touch with the casual player. If you don't get into one of these special/high end guilds like you did, there's not much to do. You have LFD/LFR, and... that's about it. Maybe you get lucky and get into a real normal or hard raid, but that's few and far between. And once they've loot pinata'd those... there's nothing left but alts. And that gets old fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
If you are too busy in real life due to exams, I don't think MMO is a healthy choice to be honest.
That's the thing though. It USED to be fine. Sure, you might not be able to do the big raids, but you could still do a challenging dungeon in an hour or two and be done for the night. Now dungeons are about 10-15 minutes and the only challenge is people being intentionally stupid. Kind of goes back to the community thing, but making all but the last few levels of leveling facerolls encouraged people to act like this, and they think that's how it will always be.
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