Higurashi Kai Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Sinestra]

Good tatics never underestimate your opponet especially kids who know the surrounding the area. Takano was just plain stupid this time she marched off into the woods not even thinking about terrain or the fact that her enemy was not in fact trying to flee but lure them into a trap. Its an age old tactic look like your running lure your enemy to groud of your choosing and engage them there. Our happy band of freedom fighters did things the right way. Not only did Takano march into a trap but she left he base and back exposed. Allowing the infiltration into the lab another mistake she Tamitake alive instead of killing him her self or having it done right away. Sloppy i tell you just plain sloppy the only thing she did right was to block off all roads in and out of the city.

Takano is loosing her grip on her soldiers and it looks like they are starting to think about their own survival that just might mean leaving Takano to the wovles. Satoshi condition was as i expected just because he was alive did not mean he was well and he wont be untill a cure has been found. So once the syndrome takes a hold you have 2 choices death or statis. But seeing Shion smile again was a joy she finally found what she had been looking for. Even though its not really premise of the show i would love to see KeiichixMion and SatoshixShion. These parings would bridge any gaps. A marriage between SatoshixShion would heal wounds about the dam war. Also, Keiichi has the stones to deal with the Sonosaki's and he and Mion have already proven they are a great team.

Im looking forward to the final episode but im sad to that after all this time its finally over. That is untill the movie comes out I cant wait to see that. Hopefully it will be as good as the live action Jigoku Shojo thats being subbed now at least imo.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

It's the rapid mood changes that get to me. When we're at this stage of a dramatic series, you don't want to see a bunch of supposedly trained military men treading logs in a comical fashion. I'm so disappointed that, when a series has done so well with tone and atmosphere for two seasons, that the penultimate episode would have almost none.

I have no qualms about the plot (other than the numerous conveniences in this arc, but I've swallowed those, since one can explain them with the probabilistic nature of the universe), but the execution in this ep was, at stages, really bad. Some of those scenes with the Yamainu were really tacky.

I'm a trained mercenary, lol. I'm gonna run away with the radio screaming like a girl.

Yeah, I think this is mainly what my issue stems from as well. If they can find a non-lethal solution to dealing with the Yamainu, great, by all means use it. But it'd be nice if it still felt like a dramatic life and death struggle. Moments like Kasai forcing the guy to surrender with the shotgun in his face and the end of the previous arc where the cast managed to ambush several Yamainu with bats and stun guns were believable and great dramatic moments. Managing to flawlessly wipe out an opposing army using a little girl's scary voice and some funny traps reminiscent of the movie Home Alone just contrasts so sharply with that. Oh well, I am done nitpicking now and am still looking very forward to ep 24.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Matrim

In what universe, may I ask there is any chance whatsoever of at least 8 people armed with firearms running away from one who is unarmed? And btw, these very same people had just overpowered opponents armed with Kalashnikov mere minutes ago. Of course, you can say that there is a probability of trained mercenaries all forgetting they actually had firearms in the very same moment but we might as well call that an impossibility. We are not talking about improbable things happening agaisnt all odds, we are talking about impossible things happening.

As far as I can remember, these "8 armed people" fleeing an unarmed one is quite erroneous. First, they didn't fled because of Akasaka, but because Shion and Kasai popped with their Kalashnikov and the Shotgun.
Furthermore, as explained on the other thread, as they were outside, being armed or not doesn't matter because they simply cannot draw their weapons, as not only they can hit Rika by a stray bullet in the midst of the confrontation, but also drawing out the police with the fuss.
OTOH, the defending side don't actually mind if the police barges around. See the difference? It isn't impossibility.

feel free to call it bullshit again, but i believe you are expecting way too much because of mere words and conception like "yamainu = elite shock troopers".


on another note: here is the usual stuff:
Episode 23 : Analysis (BGM uploaded now!)
Feel free to post over there (not in AS) any BGM request and such. I will see if i can do that for this one or for the final "analysis" entry.

[Matrim]

Furthermore, as explained on the other thread, as they were outside, being armed or not doesn't matter because they simply cannot draw their weapons, as not only they can hit Rika by a stray bullet in the midst of the confrontation, but also drawing out the police with the fuss.

So they'd rather run away and give a great chance of Akasaka and co to actually alert the police themselves than risk someone to hear a shot? Not to mention we know they have and can use silencers. OK...And these are the same guys who have no qualms about killing policemen, why should they care that much about the remote chance that a policeman might come and check? When someone shows awesome fighting moves agaisnt your comrades, the natural reaction of everyone who is not braindead would be to draw their weapon and use it - think Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

First, they didn't fled because of Akasaka, but because Shion and Kasai popped with their Kalashnikov and the Shotgun.

Yes, and these two getting their weapons back was certainly totally normal and not just another case of convenient "coincidence"/retardedness of the yamainu. I am so convinced now...

feel free to call it bullshit again, but i believe you are expecting way too much because of mere words and conception like "yamainu = elite shock troopers".

I am expecting some consistency, feel free to call this too much, if you will.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Allowing the infiltration into the lab another mistake she Tamitake alive instead of killing him her self or having it done right away.

The Thing is that Takano really doesn't want to kill Tommy because unlike what the anime has shown those two share a very close relationship

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Takano is loosing her grip on her soldiers and it looks like they are starting to think about their own survival that just might mean leaving Takano to the wovles.

That isn't the only thing Takano is loosing

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Even though its not really premise of the show i would love to see KeiichixMion and SatoshixShion. These parings would bridge any gaps. A marriage between SatoshixShion would heal wounds about the dam war. Also, Keiichi has the stones to deal with the Sonosaki's and he and Mion have already proven they are a great team.

Even though I'm a fan of KeiichixMion. The only one right for Satoshi is Keiichi, they have a alot in common

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Matrim

So they'd rather run away and give a great chance of Akasaka and co to actually alert the police themselves than risk someone to hear a shot? Not to mention we know they have and can use silencers. OK...And these are the same guys who have no qualms about killing policemen, why should they care that much about the remote chance that a policeman might come and check? When someone shows awesome fighting moves agaisnt your comrades, the natural reaction of everyone who is not braindead would be to draw their weapon and use it - think Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

1) If they can actually secure the access to any police contact, it wouldn't be surprising, at least for me. And episode 23 has shown they already have other units dispatched here and there. Retreating like this isn't much an issue but heh.
2) As far as I can see, using silencers doesn't mean you are wandering with these all the time. Now if you want to argue about this matter, do so. But I don't think the fact you don't bring these all the time is a true inconsistency, whatever.
3) Because they could simply hide the corpse of Kuma, while he was isolated...?
if the policement barge around while they heard some random gunfire, the disappearance would be obvious. Such things would be hardly possible to cover, and it would probably lead to an investigation, whatever the disaster happens or not.
4) Please, the sequence didn't even lasted 10 seconds before Okonogi's turn. They were dashing altogether, the five of them, with a very tiny pause between each other as soon as Okonogi ordered them to charge.
Usual thought: 5 guys are enough to overwhelm a single guy, which was their mistake (well, who can blame them, since they could take down beefy tomitake? huho)
Expecting prime and flawless reactions all the time seems also a bit over the top.

Yes, and these two getting their weapons back was certainly totally normal and not just another case of convenient "coincidence"/retardedness of the yamainu. I am so convinced now...

I won't argue about the "miracle way how kasai pulled his "unconscious stunt" thing. I was more talking abou the "akasaka's issue".
I won't disagree about this inconsistency of this part, but that's what you can get with minimal time. This doesn't excuse the matter, but it is at least not in the "way impossible" realm as you claim.

But well, I guess it is like usual disbelief and all.

[Matrim]

I won't disagree about this inconsistency of this part, but that's what you can get with minimal time. This doesn't excuse the matter, but it is at least not in the "way impossible" realm as you claim.

It's nigh on impossible from my point of view as someone just watches the anime, has not played the game and doesn't know that this or that was not shown. Seems to me that half of the time I raise an objection the answer is "well, it made sense in the game". Great for the game but doesn't make the anime any better, does it?

If they can actually secure the access to any police contact, it wouldn't be surprising, at least for me.

And how do they know the Sonozakis or someone else in the village don't have a radio trasmitter? Our guys could also, you know start burning the forest alerting people in Okinomiya. And if no one in Hinamizawa can contact the police why should the Yamainu care a passer-by might see them to begin with? BTW, how many witnesses who just happen to pass through would one expect in a private property owned by an yakuza family?

As far as I can see, using silencers doesn't mean you are wandering with these all the time.

So according to you they are very, very concerned that they might blow their cover, we know they have silencers available but for some inexplicable reason chose not to use them. OK, that's very plausible indeed...

Because they could simply hide the corpse of Kuma, while he was isolated...?

And they wouldn't be able to hide the corpse of the hyphotetical policeman who might come to check what the shots were because...?

4) Please, the sequence didn't even lasted 10 seconds before Okonogi's turn. They were rushing altogether, the five of them, with a very tiny pause between each other. Expecting prime and flawless reactions all the time seems also a bit over the top.

Expecting them to be absolute retards however seems to be good taste for some reason. And let's see - they are hit by Akasaka, they fall on the ground, they see they can't match his skills in hand to hand combat, yet none of them bothers to even try using his gun - not only to shoot but also to possibly threaten him. Yes, it all makes sense, surely.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Matrim

It's nigh on impossible from my point of view as someone just watches the anime, has not played the game and doesn't know that this or that was not shown. Seems to me that half of the time I raise an objection the answer is "well, it made sense in the game". Great for the game but doesn't make the anime any better, does it?

It doesn't even need the "game" knowledge, as one can figure how the pace is kinda erratic in the second season.
That said, no, I don't think the adaptation should have any better or lower credits with comparison with the game (actually, comparison is lowering the anime worth points). As far as the explanations go, they were aimed for the original script, as some recents critics were like ranting for the script itself.

It definitely doesn't make the anime better if you want me to say that.

And how do they know the Sonozakis or someone else in the village don't have a radio trasmitter? Our guys could also, you know start burning the forest alerting people in Okinomiya. And if no one in Hinamizawa can contact the police why should the Yamainu care a passer-by might see them to begin with? BTW, how many witnesses who just happen to pass through would one expect in a private property owned by an yakuza family?

The yamainu worked several years as forestmen and communication people. How it is actually surprising for them to know the transmission devices and all?
Granted, lat's say the sonozaki could have some private transmition device... how they can be able to contact someone? At random just they could end on someone who was conviently on the same channel...?

Burning the forest... good idea, what about bringing more trouble on the area? (you actually need to get out and set the fire THEN get back in safety) And how can you sure a fire can be seen "like that" ? What if... what if, indeed.

If the yamainu doesn't pay attention to the passerby, how they would actually explain the disappearance of this person?
On the disaster, it can be used, but what about a person, who is most likely supposed to be at the festival?
This cannot be applied on the club members, since they are known to be with Rika who "is supposed to be sick at home". So they can eliminate them and keep them hidden. While any passerby would be problematic due the event of this day.

So according to you they are very, very concerned that they might blow their cover, we know they have silencers available but for some inexplicable reason chose not to use them. OK, that's very plausible indeed...

Actually, if you don't expect to be attacked from the outside, isn't it enough?
That said it doesn't resolve the issue with straw bullet etc.

And they wouldn't be able to hide the corpse of the hyphotetical policeman who might come to check what the shots were because...?

Okay... let's imagine the situation:
the whole police squadron is set around the permieter of the festival, along with other patrolling here and there. What would happen if any of them notice the sound? they would actually be more than 1. Also, they would report the incident, as a gunfire is more than alarming.
Meanwhile, Kuma didn't because he didn't have any clue what the guy was doing etc.

Fair enough if the hide the said policeman, but what about the gunfire report, and the others policement then?

Expecting them to be absolute retards however seems to be good taste for some reason. And let's see - they are hit by Akasaka, they fall on the ground, they see they can't match his skills in hand to hand combat, yet none of them bothers to even try using his gun - not only to shoot but also to possibly threaten him. Yes, it all makes sense, surely.

Ah surely they have the time to draw out their weapons. You surely think they were witnessing the dual with okonogi or something?
No, most of them got hit around the head and such. Should I remind you how straight blow on some area (like the chin or the frontal area) can lead to some concussion effect?
I don't think you can stand up just after you were hit directly. What's more is the fact the whole deal lasted... like what? 1-2 minutes? Do we actually see them recovering completely before Shion and Kasai arrive? (as far as I can see, Okonogi was barely standing compared to the rest).
Again, I don't see how these guys could actually wield their firearms in such situation, or actually not "properly".

Maa, i guess further argument won't hold water, as we don't see the same inconsistencies so, it is a moot point for each side.

[Matrim]

I don't think you can stand up just after you were hit directly. What's more is the fact the whole deal lasted... like what? 1-2 minutes? Do we actually see them recovering completely before Shion and Kasai arrive? (as far as I can see, Okonogi was barely standing compared to the rest).

Well, I am no doctor but they did run away (It wasn't explicitely shown but judging by Okonogi and thier comrades this is the most likely scenario) without being carried by someone just minutes after getting hit, so obviously they did not suffer concussion or any other incapacitating injury.

Granted, lat's say the sonozaki could have some private transmition device... how they can be able to contact someone?

It can't be that hard...the military uses radio, after all.

who is most likely supposed to be at the festival?

Thank you for reminding me - during the festival which gather basically the entire population of the village in one place. Inside the private property of an yakuza boss. And these idiots are still afraid someone might see or hear their guns more than about letting tons of witnesses escape? Only absolute retards would do that.

OK, enough, I should never have started this argument in the first place as no one will be convinced. I just wanted to make a distinction between "improbable but not that unlikely if events repeat themselves a hundred or so times" and nigh on impossible.

[MarthX]

Talk about over analyzing everything.

No form of media is completely realistic.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Well, I am no doctor but they did run away (It wasn't explicitely shown but judging by Okonogi and thier comrades this is the most likely scenario) without being carried by someone just minutes after getting hit, so obviously they did not suffer concussion or any other incapacitating injury.

What I actually mean is the effect of such concussion. it might be not as severe as it is usually, but such direct blows Akasaka dealt to them is enough to make them unable to do anything for 1-2 minute. This kind of blow isn't something you say "ouch" and then stay straight like rambo. They are not putting them unconscious but pretty much KO.

They are certainly not completely incapacitated, but it stalled enough time, as they would obviously try to assault him if they could.

It can't be that hard...the military uses radio, after all.

What i actually meant is the problem with... who will they reach? Random channel? I don't actually think you can contact blindly the police or so. As far as their "false job could inform them, and what Mion and Kasai said when they were in siege in episode 22, the sonozaku don't own any transmitter or so. (until you count the talkie walkie, of course)

Thank you for reminding me - during the festival which gather basically the entire population of the village in one place. Inside the private property of an yakuza boss. And these idiots are still afraid someone might see or hear their guns more than about letting tons of witnesses escape? Only absolute retards would do that.

Should I remind you that the Sonozaki mainhouse is kinda close to the Furude Shrine, therefore, where the festival is taking place. From where they are, they could see and heard without trouble the fireworks at 10AM.
Also don't forget there are police patrol on the main road between Hinamizawa and Okinimiya during this day.

[Matrim]

Klashikari, I thought you said you weren't going to bother with me and my complaints any more?

Should I remind you that the Sonozaki mainhouse is kinda close to the Furude Shrine, therefore, where the festival is taking place.

And you still claim they had a good reason not to use silencers?!?

No form of media is completely realistic.

So we should just accept any and all plotholes because of that?

The point is that prior to the last arc the Yamainu and Takano were respectable villains who had been shown to possess some abilities. Now they are just clowns whom I wouldn't trust to even remember their own names, let alone achieve something. There was once a sense of urgency and danger. No such thing whatsover in this arc apart from a few minutes in that underground well. I think having absolute retards for villains makes the achievement of the protagonists seem more annoying than commendable but maybe that's just me.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Klashikari, I thought you said you weren't going to bother with me and my complaints any more?

Bother? No i feel discussion like this can be informative for anyone anyway, as long it isn't going into full circle and such. it is kinda what is drawing right now, but I don't think we are battle with tooth and nails, aren't we?

And you still claim they had a good reason not to use silencers?!?

I never said they had "reason". Rather their circumstance as "not expecting any reinforcement, so no need to have fun with silencers" can be valid.
Aside of this, the stray bullet is still a problem.

NOW i think we already have fun with our respective arguments, so I believe I don't need to repeat them since they are all covered (no sarcasm whatsoever, of course).

So we should just accept any and all plotholes because of that?

I agree with you: because you cannot be overly realist doesn't mean you can go with fantaisies. it is like using a uncontrollable circumstance as an excuse to do anything and everything.
But meh, As far as I can see, the "inconsistencies" here and there aren't THAT giant, but that's a matter of opinion anyway.

I guess i shall not annoy you anymore for good.

[BakaOnna]

Originally Posted by MarthX

Talk about over analyzing everything.

No form of media is completely realistic.

Agreed. I mean, we have this time reset thing that no one seems to have a huge, nitpicky problem with. But once we come to small little details like, 'why aren't they using their guns!' and 'why is it that they're falling for these traps [that are hidden in the mountains, which are the club members' best weapon; plus the fact that, they're, well, hidden in mountains.]" people complain.

Granted, the time reset thing is simply a way of telling the story. But still, geez, getting worked up over anime realism.

[Archuka]

Originally Posted by BakaOnna

Agreed. I mean, we have this time reset thing that no one seems to have a huge, nitpicky problem with. But once we come to small little details like, 'why aren't they using their guns!' and 'why is it that they're falling for these traps [that are hidden in the mountains, which are the club members' best weapon; plus the fact that, they're, well, hidden in mountains.]" people complain.

But those are completely different. The time loop is a supernatural phenomenon and is thus not limited by logic.

It's like arguing that the large energy beam the aliens used in Independence Day was unrealistic because humans don't have one.

Likewise, even in a fantasy movie, you expect people to get killed when struck by swords or when scorched by dragon breath. Yes, it's fantasy and no, there are no dragons, but we still have the human + sharp edge and human + ball of fire scenarios where the expected outcome is serious injury or death, not knights treading on logs.

[Matrim]

Yes, no one has a problem with the reset because it is the premise of the story and you don't argue with supernatural plots.

The issue here is not realism at all it's consistency. Some of my favourite series are as realistic as someone winning the Nobel prize and an Academy Award for inventing hot water.

I guess i shall not annoy you anymore for good.

No need to go that far, I was mostly looking for an excuse to stop raining on everyone's parade but looking back towards the points you and me presented I think we made some progress and this particular scene now doesn't seem quite as ridiculous as when I first saw it.

[Kanzaki Urumi]

when its going too well, especially i am used to seeing them fail, i cant help but the question Yamainu's ability. All of them look like amateurs =-= The pony tail guy can still smile after getting owned by Akasaka lol, if i was him i would be fuming. They got to hire Lelouch to command the troops. Our heroes have tactical knowledge of the place but trained soldiers would at least had done their research anyway and have the ability to anticipate traps.

Next ep, final, man this sucks...

[MarthX]

Normally the Yamainu plan everything out and work at their own pace. This time they don't have that luxury. Nomura is getting impatient and the Banken will eventually make their move.

[kingsky123]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Yes, no one has a problem with the reset because it is the premise of the story and you don't argue with supernatural plots.

The issue here is not realism at all it's consistency. Some of my favourite series are as realistic as someone winning the Nobel prize and an Academy Award for inventing hot water.



No need to go that far, I was mostly looking for an excuse to stop raining on everyone's parade but looking back towards the points you and me presented I think we made some progress and this particular scene now doesn't seem quite as ridiculous as when I first saw it.

actually the problem is this story came form a novel , well a visual novel thing (basically a book with songs) and when ryukishi07 wrote the parts he didnt expect it to get animated, either that or the animators just basically directly did some parts of the the book -> anime. they should like tweak it to fit but they didnt.

[Animaker9]

Well, I'm a little late here... a little more and I would be replying in the thread for ep. 24 but at least I've read al the comments and... I think that everyone is drowning in a glass of water, I saw the episode, I felt the suspense of the infiltration, I felt the sorrow and hope of Shion, I felt the satisfaction of watching the Yamainu falling at the hands of Satoko's traps and enjoyed the radio transmition of Hanyuu and Kei, but I didn't felt nothing out of place, or any of the stuff that you see... maybe I've seen to many animes like love hina, Inuyasha and Haruhi Suzumiya and I'm used to that "GIGANTIC" flaws and "UNREALISTIC" events... I think that you are overreacting a little, because I finished the episode with a smile and the pride to see the prelude of the end of this anime that stole countless sleep hours and brain capacity from me.

By the way, I felt that the rolling logs sceen pretty funny