[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[confusionjunkie]

Originally Posted by mizou

So what the important answers that we get from the five games chiru?

Incest is the best put your grandfather's rape child to the test.

[Kirroha]

Originally Posted by mizou

So what the important answers that we get from the five games chiru?

Who Beatrice is, and the reason for her games.

[AuraTwilight]

What Kirroha said. All the games we read up to this point weren't so much parts of the truth (though they are to an extent), but a means to understanding Beatrice's heart.

[Darkpierrot]

What I dont get is:

Why Ryukishi maked us believe that finding the truth is important...

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What Kirroha said. All the games we read up to this point weren't so much parts of the truth (though they are to an extent), but a means to understanding Beatrice's heart.

Well said. The first 8 games weaved for us a beautiful story about a family, and if we get the chiru arcs I am sure Ryukishi07 will address all the issues the readers brought up.

Originally Posted by Darkpierrot

What I dont get is:

Why Ryukishi maked us believe that finding the truth is important...

I don't think he stated that. I think he feels the same as horror author Lovecraft who says sometimes better not to know the truth. For Ryukishi07 the fun is in enjoying the study and discussing it with others.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't think he stated that. I think he feels the same as horror author Lovecraft who says sometimes better not to know the truth. For Ryukishi07 the fun is in enjoying the study and discussing it with others.

Or, perhaps to put it a bit better, he wanted us to be emotionally invested in the truth (like Ange) so we could appreciate the full emotional impact of learning the catbox will never open (like Ange).

When he wanted us to find the truth, he never said we were to find the truth of Rokkenjima Prime. Our goal was to understand Beatrice, and to understand she wasn't a witch, but a princess in distress. A sleeping beauty who rests peacefully at the bottom of the sea.

Fragments of her feelings bubble to the surface, hoping to be understood. Everyone wants someone to understand their personal puzzle. To be solved and figured out. To have someone know who they are, and thus acknowledge that they existed.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or, perhaps to put it a bit better, he wanted us to be emotionally invested in the truth (like Ange) so we could appreciate the full emotional impact of learning the catbox will never open (like Ange).

When he wanted us to find the truth, he never said we were to find the truth of Rokkenjima Prime. Our goal was to understand Beatrice, and to understand she wasn't a witch, but a princess in distress. A sleeping beauty who rests peacefully at the bottom of the sea.

Fragments of her feelings bubble to the surface, hoping to be understood. Everyone wants someone to understand their personal puzzle. To be solved and figured out. To have someone know who they are, and thus acknowledge that they existed.

Which is what one could say was what Ryukishi was referring to when he said that Episode 7 was the end of the story as a mystery.

The mystery of Beatrice ended with Episode 7, not Rokkenjima.

I dunno. As a mystery it seems more Dan Brown than JDC

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or, perhaps to put it a bit better, he wanted us to be emotionally invested in the truth (like Ange) so we could appreciate the full emotional impact of learning the catbox will never open (like Ange).

I agree that this is almost certainly what he intended.

It's just wrong. So, so wrong.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd rather not get into that argument AGAIN, so let's just say we don't have enough information to know why Battler feels it's justified to keep the truth locked up.

[Kirroha]

I found Umineko a beautiful story. So what if the truth of Rokkenjima Prime wasn't brought to light? Were we ever supposed to know about that? Umineko was clearly more psychological/emotional. If it were a normal mystery, it wouldn't have tried to deconstruct the mystery genre like that. What we found out was a truth way more impactful than any mystery.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Kirroha

I found Umineko a beautiful story.

No disagreements there.

So what if the truth of Rokkenjima Prime wasn't brought to light? Were we ever supposed to know about that?

It matters a lot. Umineko as it is just doesn't have a sense of closure, even if the ending was pretty good.

If it were a normal mystery, it wouldn't have tried to deconstruct the mystery genre like that.

I disagree. Umineko really, really isn't a deconstruction.

What we found out was a truth way more impactful than any mystery.

It's a matter of opinion. To me, the mystery matters more than anything else. Umineko tried to make me care about something other than the mystery, but it just didn't achieve that goal. But I certainly think the mystery matters more than what we found out. The truth should have come out in the end.

[Renall]

To me, it's really not a matter of objective, but of theme and attitude. A story isn't just about what its author eventually comes out and explicitly says it's about. If he writes it one way then claims it's something else... well, maybe he didn't make what he thought he did. Certain aspects and themes of the story just don't match up with his apparent intent for the series.

[Ayu-ayu]

Really? It seems like it was his intent from the start, depending on whether you take his challenge seriously or not: http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html

Is guesswork possible or impossible in Umineko no Naku Koro ni?

The genre of this work is probably a serial murder mystery.
However, that does not guarantee that reasoning and guesswork are possible.
Those who enjoy stupid puzzles that are made to be solved can leave now.
Umineko no Naku Koro ni is the worst kind of tale, created without any intention of letting all of
you solve it.
However, to all of the worst kinds of people, who hear that and just want to challenge it more,
welcome.
I am myself sending out this tale to make these worst kinds of people surrender.
No matter what kinds of strange events occur, all of you will try to explain it with humans and tricks,
and deny all mysteries, as the worst kind of human supremacists.
Please, try to explain each one of the many baffling cases with humans and tricks as best you can.
I want to see how far I can penetrate everyone's human supremacy.
The culprit is a witch. All alibis and tricks are magic.
This is not a mystery, but fantasy!
I want to see you surrender and say that while crying bitter tears.
I do not expect a line of reasoning leading to the truth to appear.
I want to find out just how many people can deny the witch until the very end and maintain a 'human
culprit theory'.
In short, this is a tale of a battle between humans and witches.

That said, I still want to believe it is a trick.

[AuraTwilight]

I disagree. Umineko really, really isn't a deconstruction.

I agree, but it has deconstructive elements.

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I agree, but it has deconstructive elements.

At first I thought Umineko may have been deconstructive but when looking at others who have deconstructed their mediums, like Alan Moore, I realized Ryukishi was not doing this. Ryukishi was more open with this fans, respected their intelligence, and even say he was making these stories because he enjoyed writing them and seeing the readers' reactions. But I do think that Ryukishi's message in Umineko agrees with Sherlock Holmes author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Mr. Doyle actually believed in fantasy and supernature, even running an occult magazine, and wrote Holmes for fun. When he had enough and retired the fans and publishers demanded more and forced him out of retirement. Now that he was forced to write Holmes he longer felt the joy and realized that the fans and mystery genre was heartless demanding things out of him which is why in his later Holmes books he purposely wrote Holme's cold, calculating logic wrong (though Holmes reveals the cuprit, if you really look at clues they are not the right one like with Hound of Bakervilles).
Basically towards the end of his life, Doyle hated the coldness of the heartless mystery genre and began moving more towards fantasy and supernature.

I am not sure if anyone brought this up but if Ryukishi07 knows his mystery authors he probably read about Arthur Conan Doyle's distain for mystery and love for fantasy. This is what I sort of got from Umineko.

[Player]

I think this is the only forum discussing EP8 which doesn't seem to be filled with "HATEHATE RYUKISHI DIDN'T REVEAL THE TRUTH THIS SUCKS HATEHATE" but actual logic and understanding of the series. I agree with what's been pointed out so far.

The joy of Umineko was coming out with theories, not to mention the discussion. I believe that while the mystery was important, it was kinda overrated, and the true important thing that should be figured out (which Chiru helped out with) was Beatrice's heart. And yes, I think the whole "think up theories" was so we could feel the same impact Ange felt during EP8. Umineko was a beautiful tale, and I don't really like the fact many people of it's fanbase seem to hate it without quite understanding it. >_>

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by Player

I think this is the only forum discussing EP8 which doesn't seem to be filled with "HATEHATE RYUKISHI DIDN'T REVEAL THE TRUTH THIS SUCKS HATEHATE" but actual logic and understanding of the series. I agree with what's been pointed out so far.

Well I actually think there were some hate Ryukishi/R07 is awesome fighting earlier but yes from the interviews Ryukishi gives he is not just going to give away the answer, the fun is in discussing and coming up with theories with others. It allows for more communication between fans unlike traditional mysteries were once you get to the end you say "oh so that's how it's done" then toss the book away.

Unlike other authors I think Ryukishi respects the intelligence of the readers, instead of just shoving some preachy idea down someones throat he allows the readers to form their own ideas even challegening them to come up with explainations that work better than the ones he give.

Like horror author, Lovecraft, said finding/revealing the truth drives people crazy it's better to be ignorant of it. But Ryukishi takes his in his own way by saying the story is not about the finding the truth but watching a story about the family, love, etc.

[Player]

Originally Posted by ClannadDango

Well I actually think there were some hate Ryukishi/R07 is awesome fighting earlier but yes from the interviews Ryukishi gives he is not just going to give away the answer, the fun is in discussing and coming up with theories with others. It allows for more communication between fans unlike traditional mysteries were once you get to the end you say "oh so that's how it's done" then toss the book away.

Unlike other authors I think Ryukishi respects the intelligence of the readers, instead of just shoving some preachy idea down someones throat he allows the readers to form their own ideas even challegening them to come up with explainations that work better than the ones he give.

Like horror author, Lovecraft, said finding/revealing the truth drives people crazy it's better to be ignorant of it. But Ryukishi takes his in his own way by saying the story is not about the finding the truth but watching a story about the family, love, etc.

Indeed. What made Umineko great wasn't just the mystery, but the interaction with the fans (unfortunately, I never knew too many people interested in Umineko, so I didn't get to experience that), the beauty of the story, everything. Honestly, without thinking up theories, it'd still be a beautiful story, but the thinking made it even better. The first few EPs made me relate to Battler on how hard the mysteries were, it really managed to bring you closer to the characters.

And believe me, the fight a few pages ago has nothing on what I've seen. It's 20 pages of people saying Ryukishi is the worst mystery writer ever. With only a few of my posts defending him. XD

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by ClannadDango

Now that he was forced to write Holmes he longer felt the joy and realized that the fans and mystery genre was heartless demanding things out of him which is why in his later Holmes books he purposely wrote Holme's cold, calculating logic wrong (though Holmes reveals the cuprit, if you really look at clues they are not the right one like with Hound of Bakervilles).
Basically towards the end of his life, Doyle hated the coldness of the heartless mystery genre and began moving more towards fantasy and supernature.

To be fair this in no way applies to the mystery genre or Sherlock Homes. All the really dedicated fandoms are like this. I don't think this a good comparison with Episode 8 though because he said he put everything he wanted in it. And he hasn't really been forced to write anything as far as I know.

But Ryukishi does reference Sherlock Holmes in interviews A LOT.

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by Player

Indeed. What made Umineko great wasn't just the mystery, but the interaction with the fans (unfortunately, I never knew too many people interested in Umineko, so I didn't get to experience that), the beauty of the story, everything. Honestly, without thinking up theories, it'd still be a beautiful story, but the thinking made it even better. The first few EPs made me relate to Battler on how hard the mysteries were, it really managed to bring you closer to the characters.

And believe me, the fight a few pages ago has nothing on what I've seen. It's 20 pages of people saying Ryukishi is the worst mystery writer ever. With only a few of my posts defending him. XD

On of the post I read earlier back in the form the poster said that the story is really about the family and when you set aside the murders and stuff the scenes you see are heartfelt moments of the family members bonding together and the love story. I actually thought that represents Umineko perfectly and probably what R07 planned.

Yeah I was actually following the fighting for a few weeks, it's pretty fun entertainment watching them. There were a lot of "R07 is the worst ever and toy with the reader" and "R07 is the best most ingenious writer ever" but that's what I like, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Everyone is entitled to believe in their own "truth" and nobody can take that "truth" away. I dont know if that is what R07 planned but if I got anything out of it, the real truth is your truth.