[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

Yasu loves all three of them, but seems to love Battler > George > Jessica in pretty much that order. She is indeed the daughter of the Kuwadorian Beatrice. We're still not 100% sure she's the culprit, but if she were, she would've apparently committed the murders because she's so fucked up in the head and feels she and everyone else deserves to die, or something.

[battle22]

not 100% sure??? 0-0... umm. the real culprit is revealed in episode 8 right?

[AuraTwilight]

Hahaha, no. EP7 gave all the answers we're going to get on that front.

[battle22]

than what is episode 8? so ryukushi left us with that? I'm disappointed. but this way
it's more interesting probably.... sorry to ask this in ep 8 discussion but will chiru anime
ever come out? i'm dyeing to watch it.

[Oblivion]

Even though Yasu does have or did have both genetilia, is Yasu's male or female instinct more dominant?

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Oblivion0101

Even though Yasu does have or did have both genetilia, is Yasu's male or female instinct more dominant?

I'd say female instinct, if only because its strongest affections were for Battler.

[AuraTwilight]

than what is episode 8? so ryukushi left us with that? I'm disappointed. but this way
it's more interesting probably.... sorry to ask this in ep 8 discussion but will chiru anime
ever come out? i'm dyeing to watch it.

Ryukishi says that EP6 was the end of Battler and Beatrice's story, and EP7 was the end of the mystery's story. EP8 will be the emotional conclusion. Essentially one big epilogue.

Even though Yasu does have or did have both genetilia, is Yasu's male or female instinct more dominant?

We don't know anything about Yasu's genitalia, but in any case she seems to have a female gender identity.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by battle22

than what is episode 8? so ryukushi left us with that? I'm disappointed. but this way
it's more interesting probably.... sorry to ask this in ep 8 discussion but will chiru anime
ever come out? i'm dyeing to watch it.

Ryukishi said that he didn't want to give an answer that could be "copypasted".
He said that a solution to all the mysteries exists and that it can be found, but that one must find it by himself.

Personally
I think he's either overestimating the readers or his ability to create a story with enough and clear enough hints to reach the only reasonable conclusion.


There is no confirmation whatsoever of a chiru anime adaption, there doesn't seem to be a big chance of that happening and most novel fans believe it's better that way.
The PS3 conversion of chiru, however, was already announced, so at least you'll have a voice acting of all the chiru characters.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Ryukishi says that EP6 was the end of Battler and Beatrice's story, and EP7 was the end of the mystery's story. EP8 will be the emotional conclusion. Essentially one big epilogue.

Essentially he even went so far and said that EP8 isn't even necessary to the mystery story at all because it's just a message to the readers who arrived at the truth and a party for those who didn't...which essentially didn't work at all.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Personally
I think he's either overestimating the readers or his ability to create a story with enough and clear enough hints to reach the only reasonable conclusion.

Mostly because of this I'd say.
He definitely overestimated his own ability to write a proper mystery. In Higurashi he basically threw it into our faces (except the over the top conspiracy plot of course) and in Umineko he veiled some aspects so far that nobody can bloody guess those elements without using guessing as a major element of "reasoning".
It's no wonder because he's basically still new in the mystery department...he effectively only wrote 2 or 3 stories before Umineko only that one of them was so damn big that it counts for some authors whole resumé.

Maybe if he had actually went for the more difficult mysteries that he said he had prepared for Episodes 3 and beyond...maybe that would have made better clues. I bet the "everybody is locked up in one room and still people die" would have been a pretty decent scenario full of hints...
But he rather went for the "I'm going to mash the basics into your head over and over again until I see enough people on the internet getting it". I'm really with him on his metaphor about how he became like a curry shop with extremely spicy curry which became famous and stopped serving the trademark because new trendy costumers complained...

We don't know anything about Yasu's genitalia, but in any case she seems to have a female gender identity.

Lion doesn't help there either as sad as it is...because we know that Kinzô didn't want a female heir (at least he told Eva that). Though that leaves the question why he was so ready to leave the whole estate to "Lion" or Yasu in that case, if he didn't like a girl heir.
Maybe Lion really was a boy and he adapted Shannon as a personality BECAUSE he was into dudes...so he essentially dressed up as a girl and Jessica was more or less only an option because it seemed "healthier" if he should uncover his true identity.
Though with his genitalia destroyed it doesn't really matter what s/he is...does it?

The only other hint we have is Ryûkishi always talking about her (彼女).

There is no confirmation whatsoever of a chiru anime adaption, there doesn't seem to be a big chance of that happening and most novel fans believe it's better that way.
The PS3 conversion of chiru, however, was already announced, so at least you'll have a voice acting of all the chiru characters.

Well, maybe there's a chance if the Chiru PS3 and PSP port gains enough cash. They would have the roles already and wouldn't need a casting process...and maybe Sony and some other company would jump onboard an finance the anime. Similar to how S-E financed the second season of Higurashi.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Mostly because of this I'd say.
He definitely overestimated his own ability to write a proper mystery. In Higurashi he basically threw it into our faces (except the over the top conspiracy plot of course) and in Umineko he veiled some aspects so far that nobody can bloody guess those elements without using guessing as a major element of "reasoning".
It's no wonder because he's basically still new in the mystery department...he effectively only wrote 2 or 3 stories before Umineko only that one of them was so damn big that it counts for some authors whole resumé.

Maybe if he had actually went for the more difficult mysteries that he said he had prepared for Episodes 3 and beyond...maybe that would have made better clues. I bet the "everybody is locked up in one room and still people die" would have been a pretty decent scenario full of hints...
But he rather went for the "I'm going to mash the basics into your head over and over again until I see enough people on the internet getting it". I'm really with him on his metaphor about how he became like a curry shop with extremely spicy curry which became famous and stopped serving the trademark because new trendy costumers complained...

This reminds me of the "Van Dine problem" I read about on a random mystery blog one of these days. The blog author argued that Van Dine's rule about fairness was problematic in that human nature and perception of the world was different from human to human, so it fell to the detective to be the "tour guide" that showed the reader how humans functioned in his story, and how human nature worked. That same blog compared Shkanon to a segway, "functional but stupid" which is neither here nor there but I personally thought was hilarious.

Ryuukishi's lack of a competent detective up until episode 7 made us pretty much guess how he intended us to see the world. He makes it clear in interviews he is surprised that people didn't see things the way he intended them to, but that's only because it requires too much guessing. For example, he makes a point in that interview that rain only matters if the author calls attention to it...

Well, that's a very specific way of seeing the problem. And one that doesn't work if we don't have a good conductor along the story.

I think he had a few good ideas, but there were two major problems with his approach.

1)The lack of a detective was simply too much. There are authors who can do so and still provide a good mystery, but the fact he wanted you to pretty much telepathically understand the way he saw the genre without a specific conductor made it hard to assume.

2)Like you said, he gave up going to deep into his own approach(which could have helped problem #1) and instead focus on the basic concepts of his own series. I have a feeling it could have been much better if he didn't try to cater to his fanbase so much...

...but to be fair, the man makes a living out of those novels. If he alienated his fanbase too much, he wouldn't sell any novels. And with a small fanbase like he has... .That's one argument against self-publishing I suppose.

[AuraTwilight]

Lion doesn't help there either as sad as it is...because we know that Kinzô didn't want a female heir (at least he told Eva that). Though that leaves the question why he was so ready to leave the whole estate to "Lion" or Yasu in that case, if he didn't like a girl heir.

Lion is Beatrice's flesh and blood. He WILL make an exception. The real question is why none of the Ushiromiyas question it.

[DaBackpack]

I dunno, I started reading when EP5 came out, but I thought the hints were well shown. However, there were so many red herrings that it made it difficult to find -which- hints led to the actual solution.

For most of us, solving the Epitaph was a lost cause. There is no getting around this. It required knowledge about both languages and about the history of Taiwanese railways; I guess Ryukishi's idea of "making it fair for both audiences" was making it so difficult no one could solve it.

There was a lot of foreshadowing for the Shkannon solution, though. I'd say that, for me, it was obvious that the whole "without love, it cannot be seen" theme was a part of the solution. That being said, this is not a conventional mystery (starting from EP2). For a story of this scope, I doubt he'd do something as stupid as "GOHDA LOVES KUMASAWA BUT DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO TELL HER BECAUSE SHE LOVES GENJI BUT GENJI LOVES KINZO AND KINZO WANTS TO HAVE A NECROPHILIC ORGY WITH EVERYONE". The solution had to be meaningful to the theme. Considering the opening of EP2, the fact that Beatrice is related to Kanon and Shannon was established early on.

I was aware of Shkannon by EP5, and the fact that it was the solution was pretty evident by the Love Trials part of EP6. It was superobvious by EP7's BSOD scene (though the rest of it practically handed us the answer).

I know it's a silly answer, but I think EP7 cleared it up and at least made it feasible. I can see why a lot of people are pissed off by it, but I don't think that's justification for saying that he's a bad author. I'm not trying to sound like a mindless fanboy here, but when I consider the series as a whole, I consider it brilliant.


EDIT: I will concede that his way of presenting the stories is "less than fair", but once again, if you consider the whole series, he clears up this with EP5 and Knox's Decalogue.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

I know it's a silly answer, but I think EP7 cleared it up and at least made it feasible. I can see why a lot of people are pissed off by it, but I don't think that's justification for saying that he's a bad author. I'm not trying to sound like a mindless fanboy here, but when I consider the series as a whole, I consider it brilliant.

I think what most people here (including AT, Sherringford, myself and some others) criticize is not actually the Shkannon solution in its plot context or how it wasn't foreshadowed enough. The problem is that part was foreshadowed more than enough. Most people had Shkannon(trice) as at least a possible theory by EP4 or 5, because the hints towards those two being important were just "in ur face". On the other hand most of the why and especially the howdunnit was kept pretty obscure till the very end and required very heavy guessing. Not to mention the fact that there is a truth of what actually happened on the island and probably we all agree at some points...but due to the approach me and Sherringford criticized before it didn't really stick out which was important and which was actually just a what if scenaria created by either Yasu or Tôya.
Was it actually just Eva who found the gold? Maybe. Did Natsuhi confess her crime against "Lion"? Probable. Was it Kyrie and Rudolph who decided "what the hell, let's just kill them all and take what we can carry"? Not unlikely. Was Yasu killed very early on and did the occult murders never start or did s/he survive and just decide to rather help her true love Battler? Who knows.

We all know that one of the messages was that truth is subjective and so on. But what bugged me in the end was, that everybody and his dog knew what the one truth was in the end...even Ange (our perspective for EP8) knew it...but we were never told because "we don't have to be told so bluntly".
It's not that it's a bad message or anything...but the build up was too huge to let it end on that note. It's like telling a one-hour joke always promising that it will blow your mind and then ending with a "guess what the pun is". Hadn't he included the story about Ange being so persistend in finding the truth...okay, I might have bought it without being annoyed. But the fact that knowing the truth became so important to the characters we associated and identified with and then letting them change because they gain knowlegde that we don't gain...it just alienated most of the readers instead of drawing them in. If it had just happened with Battler, okay...but it happened with Ange AGAIN.

Originally Posted by Sherringford

1)The lack of a detective was simply too much. There are authors who can do so and still provide a good mystery, but the fact he wanted you to pretty much telepathically understand the way he saw the genre without a specific conductor made it hard to assume.

2)Like you said, he gave up going to deep into his own approach(which could have helped problem #1) and instead focus on the basic concepts of his own series. I have a feeling it could have been much better if he didn't try to cater to his fanbase so much...

I agree with you there.
The lack of an actuall trustworthy detective made it very hard to focus and as I said above, the fact that 2 of our 3 conducting main characters (Battler, Ange and finally Will) changed oppinion along the way without us knowing why made it very hard to follow the concept.
I think as well, that Ryûkishi actually created a competent mystery, he just didn't know how to guide us through that mystery. He through hints left and right and when we didn't catch them (or better, if the majority didn't catch them) right away, then he changed his Episodes to an easier format. I don't even know if he would have lost so many of his fans if he had went another way...I know he lost some readers by being way to lenient with his riddles and mysteries, at least some people in Japan I know stopped reading after the 4 core arcs because they thought that it was a pretty shallow pop-mystery like most mystery manga.

I still think it would have been better if he had included Virgilius from EP3 on. I mean, an Erika-type cold and calculating detective who basically destroys love in order to reach the truth...that would have actually helped even if he had thrown around exagerated theories.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lion is Beatrice's flesh and blood. He WILL make an exception. The real question is why none of the Ushiromiyas question it.

What's odd about it? Most of them (everybody but Natsuhi and probably Krauss) thinks Lion is Krauss's son. And while Krauss is an unsatisfactory heir, Lion has been shown as a very promising heir.

[AuraTwilight]

....*points rogerpepitone to the post I was responding to*

We're refering to the idea of Female-Lion, and that Kinzo wouldn't care because Lion is Beatrice's child. The question, then, would be why no one else raises the question of Lion's heirship. No one does, which implies that Lion isn't a normal female.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

....*points rogerpepitone to the post I was responding to*

We're refering to the idea of Female-Lion, and that Kinzo wouldn't care because Lion is Beatrice's child. The question, then, would be why no one else raises the question of Lion's heirship. No one does, which implies that Lion isn't a normal female.

Not even to question the kinda awkward: "Hey everyone this is Lion the androgynous son of Krauss and Natsuhi who conveniently arrived without Natsuhi ever showing any signs of pregnancy...but who cares because everybody knows about Kinzô's hidden mistress anyway so what the hell, they can think what they want because everybody agrees with Kinzô or he'll just either beat them to a bloody pulp like he did with his children or cuddle them to death like he did with his grandchildren. So yeah everybody this is Lion...and no he probably doesn't look an ounce like a half-Japanese, because Kinzôs genes are so strong he just knocked the Italian right out of his first daughter already!!"

So yes...this plot was either a bit lazy in the explanation department OR I can understand Kyrie for going on a psychotic rampage in this world as well.
"You're cheating me out of my heritage because of this? HONESTLY?! Now f**k it you're all dead meat!"

Don't get me wrong (especially everybody just joining in)...I love Umineko, but sometimes it's pretty easy to ridicule...

[battle22]

um. one more question: are the closed room murderers answered? if not, that will really piss me off.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by battle22

um. one more question: are the closed room murderers answered? if not, that will really piss me off.

Well, I know it's a little bit of a cop-out, but I have to side with Ryûkishi on that one...they really are the most basic of basics and if you have the culprit, the weapon arsenal and Wills answers from EP7...you basically can solve them all.

[AuraTwilight]

Not even to question the kinda awkward: "Hey everyone this is Lion the androgynous son of Krauss and Natsuhi who conveniently arrived without Natsuhi ever showing any signs of pregnancy

The family only gathers once a year. Covering up a pregnancy isn't difficult, and being Japan, androgynous people ain't all that weird.

So yeah everybody this is Lion...and no he probably doesn't look an ounce like a half-Japanese, because Kinzôs genes are so strong he just knocked the Italian right out of his first daughter already!!"

No one thinks Shannon or Kanon look part-Italian, so what's the difference?

I don't think you're thinking things through, here.

um. one more question: are the closed room murderers answered? if not, that will really piss me off.

Will already answered them in EP7.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The family only gathers once a year. Covering up a pregnancy isn't difficult, and being Japan, androgynous people ain't all that weird.

Nope, it was pretty much established that several members dropped by on occasion, mostly during spring and early summer. This is shown with Eva visiting the island in 1985 and 86 during spring as it appears. AND Rosa was still living on the island at that time, because she triggered the whole incident in the first place!!
Okay...but androgynous, looking like a woman and a dude at once...that's quite rare I'd say. Even among Japanese guys I haven't encountered that this often.

No one thinks Shannon or Kanon look part-Italian, so what's the difference?

I don't think you're thinking things through, here.

Shannon and Kanon are fantasies. She could have made them look like monkeys wearing space suits and made nobody except us wonder. Hell, when Goldsmith summoned a witch and two demons from hellfire...including some magical bunnyrays...the parents only went like "Ah, I see...so he can do that as well. I figured, but it's darn dandy to see. Let's wait and see what he has planned."

I can live with those two not being commented on their nationality. But Lion? Honestly? When Kinzô says how much s/he looks like his/her mother?!

What is inconsistent about this...I'm just saying that Ryûkishi might have underestimated that factor and that it is slightly odd.