Let's Re-Watch Macross Frontier (TV) Together!

[DragoZERO]

Say... what do you guys say to another Macross re-watch when this is done? I've been meaning to watch the original series, Zero, and Plus again.

[woodearth]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Say... what do you guys say to another Macross re-watch when this is done? I've been meaning to watch the original series, Zero, and Plus again.

I second this. Lets rewatch SDF Macross, given the hard work Yot-chan put into subbing it the last few years.

[magnuskn]

Well, I have to do some pretty fast work on a paper, so I am keeping this short this week ( and will not answer to SS13's post from yesterday... sorry about that. ). Too little Sheryl this week anyway.

- Amazing Klan rage sequence is amazing. I wonder if the second movie contains anything even nearly as epic, featuring Klan.

- Luca lost his rosy cheeks and most of his innocent behaviour with it. Well, at least he went through enough of a "growing up" moment to justify the sudden behavioral change.

- Rankas short breakdown in Brera's arms was... weird. Because it was so very short.

- In any case, kudos to Alto for not even thinking about pretending to be in love with Ranka to steady her morale.

- And, well, kudos for this moment to Ranka, for recognizing that Alto is in fact not in love with her. But more about that later.

- But geeze... Brera really has no awareness at all that he is encouraging Rankas worst traits by absolving her of all guilt.

- I won't go again into the old debate how premeditated Rankas departure was and if she really thought Alto would come with her, but, well, it plays out very oddly. The only way it comes off with any kind of logic is when one does factor in Brera suddenly beginning to do things on his own. Given that he was anticipated 100% by Grace, one has even to wonder if he wasn't commanded without his knowledge to do so. If it wasn't Ranka totally asking him in the first place.

- And to return to Rankas departure: WTFF, Ranka? Her removing herself from Frontier at a juncture where the fleet is almost mortally wounded ( and she never showed any awareness at that time that the Vajra were only attacking because of her ), her laying a giant guilt trip on Alto at her departure, too, not even to mention that if he had gone with her, she'd removed another defender for Frontier... too much "WTFF", simply said. It is no wonder at all that so many people are outraged at the character still today.

Next week I hope I have more time, especially since it is the first of three very special episodes.

Also, about the next re-watch, I am in, although I'll leave the organization of that to others.

[DragoZERO]

All I have to say say is "Why?".

Why doesn't Klan have a beam saber?
Why so little Sheryl?
Why is Ranka leaving all of a sudden?
Why should I care about Luca?
Why did Ranka decide to leave?
Why must Klan make me so sad?
Why did Ranka want to leave?

[Darthtabby]

Oddly enough, I had more trouble with Ranka's behaviour last episode then I did with her behaviour in this one. Her refusal to sing last episode was awfully self centered and she truly deserved the slap she got from Sheryl for it. As where this episode she seemed more like she reached her limits and couldn't handle the pressure. She pushed her feelings aside and did what was needed on Island 3, but that took a lot of effort on her part and I think that continuing in that role long term was more than she could handle.

Also while I think that her trying to take Ai-kun home was incredibly naive and idealistic I don't think it was exactly an evil decision. Ai-kun is one of the last things she has left to cling to after everything that's happened, and additionally it's been noted by research that losing a beloved pet can affect a person practically as much as losing a family member (though granted Ranka hasn't had Ai-kun all that long).

I've been kind of disappointed with how weak Ranka was but I really can't bring myself to hate her for that.

Actually to be honest I found myself surprised by how good I thought this episode was when I rewatched it. Maybe being sandwiched between Diamond Crevasse and Northern Cross was to its detriment?

And for some reason it seems as it SMS' weapons are actually effective against the Vajra in this episode despite the fact that the next episode has them going to great lengths to keep Vajra from reporting back about their new weaponry. That's one issue that sort of bugs me.


A few thoughts back to the previous episode:

Originally Posted by SS13

Now THIS what we do love in Macross. It never abstracts the viewer from how terrifying the whole war is. It also shows how little information ordinary people get from the government (We shouldn't get into discussion about current situation in Japan, but...) Then again, shelters seem to be hit relatively little, so people seating there are relatively safe.

Another fine fact is again how fast people change their minds. They adored Ranka just a few days ago, now they are speaking only derogatively, even she still does what she can. AND people of course cling to "good old Sheryl" - sometimes comeback is not so hard after all.

I don't think they were speaking that ill of Ranka... they seemed more upset at the government for promising that her singing would stop the Vajra. Granted that leaves them somewhat upset at Ranka for failing with her singing, but it seems they're more upset with the government then with her.

And I have seen people criticize for the show for not making the situation seem serious enough. Granted I'm not sure that some of those people had seen the later parts yet when they said that.

I'd also heard a suggestion that the show's flashiness and general optimism can sometimes cause people to notice how dark it can get.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Also while I think that her trying to take Ai-kun home was incredibly naive and idealistic I don't think it was exactly an evil decision..

I don't think anyone ever said that her decision was "evil" ( unless we count thought exercises to counter Ranka shippers attempts to absolve her of all guilt and responsibility ), but rather that the decision was stupid, self-centered and thoughtless. At least in the context of what Ranka knew back then. That things turned out so well is more a measure of luck and plot-armor than of good planning or instinct.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I'd also heard a suggestion that the show's flashiness and general optimism can sometimes cause people to notice how dark it can get.

Until they returned to a more upbeat tone in episode 25, the general mood of the show definitely shifted with episode 20. Not that it hadn't shifted once already after the Gallia IV arc...

[Darthtabby]

I need to proofread better... I should have phrased what I said more like this:

I'd also heard a suggestion that the show's flashiness and general optimism can sometimes make people fail to notice how dark it can get.

One little missed thing and it changes the entire meaning of what I was intending to say...

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Why would Luca's death leave Nanase heartbroken?

And, please, no spoilers from the movies, ok? This is the series re-watch thread, after all.

You mean instead of flashy pink cheeks he would have flashy pink eyes when enrages?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- And to return to Rankas departure: WTFF, Ranka? Her removing herself from Frontier at a juncture where the fleet is almost mortally wounded ( and she never showed any awareness at that time that the Vajra were only attacking because of her ), her laying a giant guilt trip on Alto at her departure, too, not even to mention that if he had gone with her, she'd removed another defender for Frontier... too much "WTFF", simply said. It is no wonder at all that so many people are outraged at the character still today.

Cannot agree here because I see good reasons that she left the fleet.
One reason is that the attraction from the Vajra moves with leaving. She is the beacon that attracts and distracts the Vajra. With her gone the fleet can resupply unless their government is stupid enough to follow the trail to the vajra planet. So the question here is what did L.A.I. and N.U.N.S. do all the time that all burden to protect lays in one girl who was basically tooled and used as a weapon (although she denied to be used again after the last events). And I also think that we have one person who admited failure: Lucca

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Cannot agree here because I see good reasons that she left the fleet.
One reason is that the attraction from the Vajra moves with leaving. She is the beacon that attracts and distracts the Vajra.

Since there is absolutely no sign that she knows that she is the main cause for attracting the Vajra ( she first learns that when she recovers her full memories in episode 23 oder 24 ), it is still an irresponsible decision. Of course you can write another fanfiction of "but she might have known!" but there is no accompanying evidence of it being so.

[Father Hentai]

I don't think it is a big of concern if she knows it or not. The results are important. And at least Grace and Brera seems to knows much enough to give her some protection. For Grace for her personal reasons and for Brera to replace Alto as her protector.

Btw. If you want me to write a fanfic then about how Ranka destroys the Frontier fleet because she is being tooled around and the Vajra misunderstood the humans and they want to protect Ranka which leads to the destruction of the fleet. Sounds cool, right? :P

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I don't think it is a big of concern if she knows it or not. The results are important. And at least Grace and Brera seems to knows much enough to give her some protection. For Grace for her personal reasons and for Brera to replace Alto as her protector.

Actually, when judging her intentions when she left Frontier, the end results ( which happened only because of a lot of magic wand waving by Yoshino and Kawamori ) are not relevant at all. Only what her motivations were, her knowledge of the situation at the time of her departure and what would have happened without the 19.5 tons of plot armor she got.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Btw. If you want me to write a fanfic then about how Ranka destroys the Frontier fleet because she is being tooled around and the Vajra misunderstood the humans and they want to protect Ranka which leads to the destruction of the fleet. Sounds cool, right? :P

Sounds like fanfic.

[Swampstorm]

Understanding a character's motivations in situ is always important, at least for me. If you cut out Sheryl's introspection during the shelter scene and the atmospheric cues (like the little kid in the background murmuring "Daddy, I'm scared..."), then she's just some girl randomly singing in a dark room. It's the lead in that gives the scene context and makes it heroic.

It doesn't really matter if we can invent "reasons" for a character's behavior after the fact. It's a bit like trying to retrospectively explain a missed punchline; while I can see the concept that was being aimed for, I still can't retrospectively go back and experience the joke as being hilarious. So if the writers expected manly tears to be shed in response to episode 21, well... they'll just have to take a rain-check.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

So if the writers expected manly tears to be shed in response to episode 21, well... they'll just have to take a rain-check.

Going back to some of the interviews we've seen since the series stopped airing, I often ask myself if the actual character arcs of at least Alto and Ranka didn't ran contrary to what the Yoshino and Kawamori really claimed them to be.

Alto appears much less of an indecisive lead than Yoshino gave him credit for and Ranka... well, I still think that having her fail so much couldn't have been anything but deliberate, right?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, when judging her intentions when she left Frontier, the end results ( which happened only because of a lot of magic wand waving by Yoshino and Kawamori ) are not relevant at all. Only what her motivations were, her knowledge of the situation at the time of her departure and what would have happened without the 19.5 tons of plot armor she got.

Her intentions are explained in the next episode. But this is a different way of what Leon wants or less say it prevents her from being abused as a tool. So judging neutral condition I say it is nothing unusal to decide what path she chooses.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Her intentions are explained in the next episode. But this is a different way of what Leon wants or less say it prevents her from being abused as a tool. So judging neutral condition I say it is nothing unusal to decide what path she chooses.

And you just ignore the reasons I gave for my complaint about her behaviour ( which did include her explanation from next episode ). Oh, well.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Going back to some of the interviews we've seen since the series stopped airing, I often ask myself if the actual character arcs of at least Alto and Ranka didn't ran contrary to what the Yoshino and Kawamori really claimed them to be.

Alto appears much less of an indecisive lead than Yoshino gave him credit for and Ranka... well, I still think that having her fail so much couldn't have been anything but deliberate, right?

Was Alto ever really portrayed as indecisive? He may not have made a choice, but that's not quite the same as being undecided or being polyamorous. Alto's in Schrödinger's cat territory, and Sheryl closed the box with her mouth.

It's difficult to make characters deliberately awesome or awful, as there's no telling how any member of the audience is going to react. For that same reason, I've never been a fan of that "deconstruction of moe" essay (that, and for the fact that it uses the term 'deconstruction' incorrectly, in much the same way that tvtropes seems to do).

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Was Alto ever really portrayed as indecisive? He may not have made a choice, but that's not quite the same as being undecided or being polyamorous. Alto's in Schrödinger's cat territory, and Sheryl closed the box with her mouth.

I did not see him portrayed as such, but apparently Yoshino thought he did so. That's why I made my comment above.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

It's difficult to make characters deliberately awesome or awful, as there's no telling how any member of the audience is going to react. For that same reason, I've never been a fan of that "deconstruction of moe" essay (that, and for the fact that it uses the term 'deconstruction' incorrectly, in much the same way that tvtropes seems to do).

While it is true that it is difficult to portray someone deliberately in a certain way ( there are enough examples of tries to do so which gave way to unexpected results ), one can see the hand of the writer trying to do it. Alto is an example of where the stated intents of the writer were not reflected in the actual show, while Ranka is an example, IMO, where the writer never stated his intent but you can see the strings being pulled very clearly.

For me, there was a very deliberate and visible intent after episode 15 to undo all the progress she had made as a person, culminating in her "it's all for Alto!" declaration in episode 19 and her actions afterwards, which only were undone by magic haxx in episode 25. There seemed a clear intention on part of the writer to show that she didn't hack it as the heroic protagonist, like the other two mains in contrast clearly did. Now, I won't get into a discussion of what "deconstruction" really means in literary terms ( not my field of study and zero interest in it to boot ), but the colloquial use seems to apply. It is maybe a bit strained to apply the connection to the "moe" part of it, but as a deconstruction of the heroic protagonist, it works for me.

[Father Hentai]

Is it possible that you avoid using the term magic haxx? Because it's not done by magic but by fold wave communication between Ranka and the bacterias which were not in coexistence with Sheryl .

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Is it possible that you avoid using the term magic haxx? Because it's not done by magic but by fold wave communication between Ranka and the bacterias which were not in coexistence with Sheryl .

Ergo sum magic haxx. It's a power which Ranka suddenly developed out of nowhere.

[Father Hentai]

It's still not magic haxx. It's bio haxx.

Spoiler for Bacteria:

And Abracadabra is called fold wave communication.