2008-06-17, 17:31 | Link #1181 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Also, I use the term "wetware" rather than "meatware", but... I always thought that the reason Yuki shows little emotion compared to Kimidori and Asakura is because she was closed off from humanity for three years, watching Kyon and Mikuru, while Kimidori, Asakura, and the others had the opportunity to learn. Where Asakura may not seem to be capable of anything other than cheerfulness, Kimidori has shown a wider range of emotions, from sadness in Mysterique Sign, to cheerfulness in Editor-in-Chief, and cold spite (towards Kuyoh and possibly Kyon) in Vol. 9. Yuki, too, has evolved greatly, although her emotional responses are still very stunted compared to Kimidori. The "baby" analogy might work for newly created LHIs like Kuyoh, who is very very robotic, but not for those with teenage brains who have had 3 years of human interaction/fallen in love with Kyon. The LHIs also seem to be separate, mentally, from their creators, as Yuki is able to make choices that contradict what her masters want. |
|
2008-06-17, 18:25 | Link #1182 | |||||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But still. This merely puts her at the top of all the other IDE humans that we have seen so far, and it is not particularly impressive. All that's really be required of her presence, is to show up in a certain mode before hand, and hold it to achieve whatever purpose she needs. Quote:
Quote:
She did rewrite the universe, and obliterating an entire race of intelligent life in the process. For that period of the time loop in disappearance, the IDE ceased to exist. All because she wanted a reality to be with Kyon (And maybe partially because she wished to be a normal human). I like Yuki, but you're being dishonest if you don't admit she has problems. The LHI's seem to suffer from a different problem. Even Yuki when Kyon met her 3 years ago, was able to effectively communicate, despite being created a short time ago. And they are knowledgeable enough about humans that they can create persona's that allow their interfaces to go about their business with minimal out of the ordinary behavior. These pre set behaviors prop them up somewhat, so they don't come off as weird to humans. The Kuyoh seemed to lack even basic language skills. They might know words, but they can't quite figure out the appropriate words to convey their meanings to humans. The problem as a whole with Kuyoh probably isn't so much emotional maturity, as much a fundamental language and thought process barrier between the LHI and humanity, that the IDE have managed to somewhat cross. Yuki has a great advantage over Kuyoh when it comes to apparent human likeness, because the IDE seems to have a better understanding of Humanity than the rival faction. |
|||||
2008-06-18, 00:24 | Link #1183 | |||||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
They learn and grow, and learn to use the reptile part of their brain. They're like robots with emotional chips. Like Data from Star Trek. They're not omnipotent enough to "know" when to set certain emotions to "on". Their responses are geniune Although, it is interesting that Kimidori alone seems capable of functioning normally. Asakura was almost too cheerful and smiley, and everyone who sees Yuki regards her as weird. Quote:
Her emotions, in fact, are the root of her problems. Which is why she tries to shut them out after Vol. 4. Quote:
Also, you're using the terms wrong. Here's a short glossary: LHI (Living Humanoid Interface)- The bioroids created by data entities in order to spy on Haruhi and humanity in general. IDSE (Integrated Data Sentient Entity)- A hivemind of powerful data entities that transcend time and space, they have reached an evolutionary dead end, and wish to study the Harupowers in order to figure out how they work. The singular form is "Integrated Data Entity" or IDE. MQCE (Macrospatial Quantum Cosmic Existence), nicknamed the "Canopy Domain"- Another powerful hivemind of data entities, rivals to the IDSE. Their LHIs seem to be more primitive and less human than their rivals. Their motives are unknown, but probably similar to that of the IDSE. Harupowers, or "Incredible Cosmic Powers"- Those powers unlocked by Haruhi and her ilk, they give their user unlimited control over data. Quote:
It may also be because Yuki has been around a lot longer, too, while Kuyoh seems to be recently created. |
|||||||
2008-06-18, 00:41 | Link #1184 |
Check out my Rolek!
Join Date: May 2008
|
LOL. I love how everyone acts like an expert.
Face it folks; you're arguing over a translation* of a translation of a novel. No matter how much "evidence" you present, you're probably both wrong. * - Keep in mind that Baka-Tsuki isn't exactly known for being the most accurate when it comes to translations. Yeah, I know there's no one else translating . . . but they still suck. Not only that, but they translate (IIRC) the Chinese version of the novel. TL;DR: there's two opportunities for something to get lost in translation.
__________________
|
2008-06-18, 00:56 | Link #1185 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Also, not all of B-T's stuff was translated from Chinese. Maybe you should read the novels before you make statements like that. You fail miserably. |
|
2008-06-18, 02:17 | Link #1186 |
Kneel Before Your King!
|
According to Yuki, the IDSE was already interested in Earth at the time of the data flare, simply because humans possessed something that could be considered as "intellect." However, the part about the interfaces being created after it is still plausible, as we already know Yuki was created after it.
__________________
|
2008-06-18, 02:18 | Link #1187 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Still, I doubt they thought of actually contacting them until AFTER the data flare. |
|
2008-06-18, 05:38 | Link #1188 | |||||||||||||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
Quote:
Even before Haruhi they seemed to consider humanity as a possible solution for their evolutionary dead end. Before Haruhi though, they might have just been content to observe. Quote:
Then theres a fundamental flaw in that particular arguement by Itsuki. The arguement comes under the basic assumption, that supernatural beings like the time Travelers, and IDE cannot exist in a rational, normal universe. Therefore, something most have consciously created willed them to coexist in the normal world. This runs smack dab into the problem, that the existence of Haruhi herself (Or more specifically, her reality warping ablities) seems to point to that this is not a fundamentally normal universe. What seems more unlikely. Time travel and aliens that make very efficient use of energy, or a god like entity that could very easily violate E=MC^2 with a jackhammer. Not to say that I don't believe it's a possibility (Whitch it certainly is), I'm just a little dubious about it's probability since the only people who seemed to want to even speculate it was a bunch of primitives, who we know only have super natural abilities because god bestowed it upon them. This is opposed to Galaxy old super intelligent aliens, and the future humans who can time travel. Quote:
As a LHI gained more normal experience though, they would come to rely on it less and less. Quote:
Quote:
A standard LHI fresh out of the box needs to have some kind of stereotypical personality pattern given to them, because without it all their emotional short comings become obvious even in casual conversation (Like Kuyoh). Yuki probably got a more stoic personality, because responding to everything stoically might seem odd, but it's far less unusual than Asakura's Smiley mcstab stab. Quote:
Wasn't it implied post disappearance, that Kimidori had been assigned as Yuki's "Chaperon"? This would imply that she is somewhat higher on the totem pole than Yuki is. Like wise, Asakura was designated as only being Yuki's backup. Quote:
Although she has managed to avoid any overt punishment, given Kyons threat to unleash the reality warping pit bull if such happens. Quote:
It'd be interesting to see what 3 year ago Kimidori, and Asakura were like... Yuki's still somewhat like a robot (because she's stoic), but Asakura and Kimidori have more outgoing personalties. They might come off as more uncanny trying to do human emotion incorrectly, compared to Yuki that holds a complete poker face. Quote:
Thanks. Quote:
Quote:
The MQCE seems to either not to have proper Data on human language, or their thought process is different in a way that makes it harder for them to transmit and receive info via their LHI. Quote:
Quote:
Of course, then one of the humans demonstrates powers that actually break the laws of physics. Not the laws of physics "as we know it, thus proving the universe is different than we thought it was", but actually breaking it like a 2 by 4 to a pot of China. It'd be like finding the insects in your back yard building anti matter reactors. |
|||||||||||||
2008-06-18, 06:50 | Link #1189 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
|
I am not sure that the time factor is much of a factor for the LDEs, Their master are not bound to time but they are ''living'' in 4 dimentions ( 3 spatial and 1 for time ), so is it going to create a a pradoxe? the gap betweem the LDEs and their master.
By the way the LDEs ''lived'' for 3 years until the start of the story, but after ''endless 8'' the 3 year become buch more. |
2008-06-18, 06:53 | Link #1190 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
But weren't all the occupants of the universe unable to remember any experiences they had during endless 8? They might have been able to figure out it was happening, but I'm pretty sure no experience was gained.
The actual specifics of the link of the human mind, to a 4th dimensional entity are bound to be very fascinating. |
2008-06-18, 07:40 | Link #1191 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
|
The human were not able , but the LDEs ( at least Nagato) were aware ( and were able to remember)of the phenomene , we may think than the LDEs and their master did gain experience/information while the endless 8 incident.
Last edited by ganbaru; 2008-06-18 at 22:50. |
2008-06-18, 12:56 | Link #1192 | |||||||||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
It is for this reason that Yuki stops synchronizing after Vol. 4. She no longer wishes to know the future. She doesn't want to experience that sense of inevitability and defeat again. Quote:
Quote:
Of course, it's impossible to prove them right, but... Quote:
Quote:
It makes her a good chaperone for a possibly rogue interface. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||||
2008-06-18, 19:24 | Link #1194 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
|
It has occured to me that Kimidori might have been made after Yuki and Ryoko with the Data Entity using the knowledge that they had gained to make improvements. Yuki and Ryoko being first generation Interfaces and Kimidori being a second generation Interface.
|
2008-06-18, 19:39 | Link #1195 | ||||||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
Quote:
It's possible that Yuki's human side experianced the memory wipe, but her Data side didn't. Thus, no emotional development. Quote:
But just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's particularly likely. You use the arguement that this is the case because espers/Time Travelers/ Aliens don't belong in the normal universe, when Haruhi herself basically blows the normal universe theory out of the water. In general, I put Itsuki's theory in the same category as everything else he's found by poking around his navel. Possible, but not inherently likely. I think the organization provides all this random musing to Kyon, to try to camouflage the fact that they don't have allot of useful solid information to provide Kyon like the IDE and time travelers. They do want to curry his favor. Forgive me If I did not properly convey my meaning. Quote:
I don't think you can say that Asakura's party only wants to get results by murder. They just want results. Arranging a car to splash a puddle all over Haruhi, to having the person she's attracted to brutally murdered are all the same to them, because they fundamentally don't understand how humans think. It also seems like rather suicidal behavior, considering that if Haruhi found out about them, and had even a inkling to her own potential, they'd be instantly destroyed. But like Asakura said. They don't understand mortality the same way humans do, because they can't die. And they haven't met anything that can effectively wipe them out. Speaking of this, this brings up a related theory regarding Lone Island Syndrome... What If the organization arranged the incident on the island, in order to appease the radical faction of the IDE, and prevent them from doing anything hasty in the future? I can't imagine that the Organization just sat on their butts in response to Asakura trying to whack Kyon. Thanks Quote:
Even though Yuki's emotional human mind has a great deal of influence on her total thought process, her completely alien side has an extremely substantial role in it to. For Yuki to be a fully developed human, she couldn't have the giant monolithic alien component of her mind. At the same time, if you took this part of her away, Yuki would be a very different person. The LHI are really sad when you consider them. While the anime and manga focuses on how alien Nagato is compared to the humans, we have to consider that to "Normal" IDE, she must appear similarly uncanny, if not more so. For humans, she can hide her alien nature under the persona of a stoic book worm, always reading. Slightly strange, but a person that you can keep as an informal friend. Hiding her abnormal behavior (From the perspective of the IDE) from her alien brothers, is likely to be more difficult. The IDE seem to almost have telepathic links to each other. In that kind of environment, Yuki's alien personality (From the IDE perspective) is probably far more apparent than it is to humans. This could possibly explain why she came to relate more with her human side, and why she wanted to just be a normal human. Quote:
Quote:
It sounds to me like the intellectual data from the IDE part of her brain got transmitted and received, but it seems somewhat possible that her base human feelings were unable to do so. Thanks. |
||||||
2008-06-18, 19:56 | Link #1196 | |||||||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Interestingly, though, the only Organization member that Kyon has any real contact with is Koizumi. So how do we know he's not lying? Quote:
Also, the words "rival factions" are used several times in the novels, and Kimidori is even stated to be from a different faction than either Yuki or Ryoko. Of course, it's Koizumi who says this, so... Dammit. Half the infodumps come from Koizumi, and he can't be trusted. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I doubt that the Organization was planning anything other than entertainment for Haruhi. Quote:
The interfaces weren't alive before the three years ago event, they were created in response to it. Therefore, they only exist as their humanoid selves, and, as such, have less capacity than their creators. What my point here is that, although their intellectual brain is incredibly powerful, human emotions, on anyone, can have a very overpowering effect. Remember, discounting Endless Eight, Yuki is 3 years old. We have no idea of the extent that her emotional development could extend to. Quote:
Also, can we please stop having such massive discussions? |
|||||||||
2008-06-18, 23:02 | Link #1197 | |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
|
Quote:
By the way, in vol7 when Nagato said to Kyon than she need a other person aproval ( and her will to do so too) for any futur Synchronization, she never said who must give that aproval ,no ? And if it was not Kimidori? |
|
2008-06-18, 23:08 | Link #1199 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
It's fantastic. I can't even argue with you, because I don't even understand what the bloody hell your point is. |
|
2008-06-18, 23:14 | Link #1200 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
I was under the impression Yuki was over Kimidori during the Cave Cricket Incident. Almost manipulating her. It seems possible their roles reversed as part of Yuki's punishment.
Yuki seems to be the main observer while the other two knowns are backup units. It is possible that they were all equal units at first, but Kyon went to Yuki practically from the start, thus they know she will be the one that can observe best in the future, thus placing her as the main unit. Being in charge is an unknown at this point. More data is required.
__________________
|
Tags |
shounen, sneaker bunko, seinen, light novels, manga |
|
|