Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Spoiler for US in the Post Alt world:

Of course, post Alt IV, US design of their ATSF for human vs human combat is Fucked, since BETA is legion, so what ever plans US had after BETA is cleared off earth went out the window, since they can come back anytime.
Its strongly suggested in the TSFiA that post Operation Ouka the Japanese produced Takemikazuchi is world recognized as the premiere TSF for Hive operations, being the only type that successfully Infiltrated the Hive and assaulted it, which resulted in the demand for an export version for front line countries. The world seemed to work better with the threat of the BETA over their heads, since all the major powers worked together to clear the hives (of course, there are still untold stories of politics taking place though.)

My hope for humankind have suddenly grown.

[Wild Goose]

Except that isn't the Takemi a really complicated pain in the ass o build, resulting in only 30 airframes a year?

Unless Japanese production can ramp up.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Except that isn't the Takemi a really complicated pain in the ass o build, resulting in only 30 airframes a year?

Unless Japanese production can ramp up.

Oh you bet they did...

The Floor Is Covered With Takemes

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Oh you bet they did...

The Floor Is Covered With Takemes

So much 00Cs. Maybe they can be sold to other countries, but I bet the maintenance to keep them running will cost a fortune. 00R will definitely remain as exclusive considering how special those units are.

Spoilers

Spoiler for impressions regarding that scene from Adoration

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[grylsyjaeger]

Originally Posted by Silvance

Spoilers

Spoiler for impressions regarding that scene from Adoration

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So much win.

[Dragonkid11]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Oh you bet they did...

The Floor Is Covered With Takemes

With that much Takemes,you can rule the Earth and another with relatively ease...if you can maintain them

[grevierr]

@ Silv they did testing for an export version as per the TSFiA, so ya, probably sold them overseas.

They also did probably outsourced the parts for the Type 00C variants at least to other countries, and produce parts for the 00F variant themselves to swap, in order for mass production, like what IRL US did for their Tanks and Guns parts, made in China. The Type-00R would still be fully domestic.


In IRL news, the man who killed F-22 mass purchase project, Obama won the elections. Banzai!

[Wild Goose]

Btw, talking about the F-22, link leads to a forum post quoting an article on the F-22 acquisition. Interesting reading.

[grylsyjaeger]

So glad he can't affect my beloved TSF....

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Here comes AMT with you dose of "Don't get your hopes too up":

Spoiler for Takemis and Takamizations:

Let's be brutally honest here: The Type-00 "record" is result of being escorted by a super-fortress which moves by manipulating gravity, can bend light, rip stuff apart with said gravity, carried dozens of 36mm turrets, dozens of missile launchers, supply containers and an Ion Cannon, And that's without adding that 12 S2 missiles on board are essentially tactical nukes. To use TSFiA's own naming theme "manipulated victory" if there ever was one. Not that Takemis were bad in any way.

Also, do note that Takemis were born out of an utter clusterfuck that is Japanese politics. It was build because IG was offended/upset that regular plebe cannon fodder managed to build something better then Zuikaku - the Shiranui. Obviously, this couldn't have been allowed, so they went off and built Type-00. Do note there we have never seen Imperial Army Type-00. The grey models are still used by Imperial Guard. Yui is also Imperial Guard, although I suppose she works in something like "Joint Services R&D". Similarly, Imperial Guards get very upset when plebes touch their machines ("WHO SAID YOU COULD TOUCH THAT MACHINE!?"). Export of Takemis is more of a money grab, and trying to save face after America chewed through their coup forces, which were using some higher-end equipment. Also Type-00C Takemikazuchi is *only* 30-20% more effective then Shiranui (the original one). Since that's the cheapest variant, I'd imagine that it would be one that would be seeing "foreign" production. Especially since most of U.N Takemi squad is using those, with two 00Fs as command units. So export Takemis are not so magnificent like say, F-35.


Or Typhoon or Rafale <- Which is what you really should be buying.

And Imperial Guard doesn't have all the Takemis either. There are still battalions that use Zuikakus. I imagine Seijirou's unit was the one of the lucky ones that got its full shipment. That, and many South-East Asian nations wouldn't probably be happy about Japan expanding its arms production.

Keeping it grimdark people. No need to thank me.

[Wild Goose]

Assuming that America behaves more like it did IRL, I'd expect them to be the only people not making export versions of their TSFs that are weaker. (Typhoon is not yet being exported anywhere atm.)

Throughout the Cold War, where America was exporting freedom all over the place (especially with the teen fighters in the 80s), export fighters were, as best as I can see, not that much markedly different from home use fighters. Contrast the monkey models the Soviets sold.

Also, while the Imperial Royal Guard undoubtedly have some fine and decent people, they can, as a general rule, go eat shit.

Also,isn't it sad, IJN? You're the only navy in the world that's still using the Gekishit.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Since Japanese Empire is very much alive here (and history shows how much they trust their "allies" if rampant exploitation of Indonesia and making a unique rifle caliber just for their native force), I'd imagine Japan does the good 'ol monkey export.

America reminds me a bit of Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2 - they're complete jerks and wanna be heroes, but they're hilarious.

And let's be honest, if you were in their shoes, you would be doing exactly same thing.

[Wild Goose]

I'd probably try not to be too much of a douche. And no selling of monkey models.

On the other hand, havta admit that CIA's manipulation of domestic elements was win win; if they don't take the bait, nothing lost; if they do, great, they're all in one place where we can take them out and show up the Japs.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

We're in your house, playing your politics.

Spoiler for For TDA::

And something tells me that Ikaruga of all people agrees with them...or at least, thinks that current Japan is and was ridiculous.

Can someone provide a description of TDA's recent ending? You know, the one where Ikaruga goes all Keikaku Doori, and plans to kill Meiya?

The scary part was that Soviets did something similar in their territories (irl) and it worked brilliantly. Create your own opposition so that you can destroy it at any time.

[Wild Goose]

I thought that was

Spoiler for The girl on the ship:

Yuuhi, not Meiya? Because in my run, at least, I sent Meiya off to that other planet.

Also, I wonder where LTC Iwaya stands. All the times I've seen him, he's wearing IJA service greens, not the IG uniform. But then he was the chief test pilot for the Zuikaku and used it to school two F-15Cs... Oh, right, designer's brother-in-law. Still, if he's IJA, that explains why he isn't being YAMATO DAMASHII around Yui, lol.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by grevierr

As Goose said, US Army doctrine is Fast In Faster Out, to prevent losses, quick strike attacks at maximum stand off ranges. Of course, this doesn't help with holding ground or taking it, as BETAs just ignore losses and push forward (No need to mention Hive combat). So basically US doctrine is best used to provide support for other forces that are holding the line on the ground. If they ever have to stand their ground in close combat with BETA they would be fked.

I just realised - this mirrors USAF doctrine of the late 90s/early 00s, where it was believed that airpower was everything and you didn't need ground forces.

Huh. The more you know.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Its not that everyone else is only CQC, everyone has more or less the same ranged weapons as the US, and CQC options on top. Its the US that declined the CQC options, using only combat knives in melee, and they train that only ever in TSF vs TSF combat.

As Goose said, US Army doctrine is Fast In Faster Out, to prevent losses, quick strike attacks at maximum stand off ranges. Of course, this doesn't help with holding ground or taking it, as BETAs just ignore losses and push forward (No need to mention Hive combat). So basically US doctrine is best used to provide support for other forces that are holding the line on the ground. If they ever have to stand their ground in close combat with BETA they would be fked.

That being said, no TSF forces would fight alone without supporting forces from Artillery and Obital Resupply, so if Laser Class are present, a bombardment of heavy metal shells first to diffuse the lasers can be expected. Then it would rely on the TSFs ability to dodge laser fire with random movements while moving in, which most Gen 3 and 2.5 TSFs can do.

Spoiler for US in the Post Alt world:

Of course, post Alt IV, US design of their ATSF for human vs human combat is Fucked, since BETA is legion, so what ever plans US had after BETA is cleared off earth went out the window, since they can come back anytime.
Its strongly suggested in the TSFiA that post Operation Ouka the Japanese produced Takemikazuchi is world recognized as the premiere TSF for Hive operations, being the only type that successfully Infiltrated the Hive and assaulted it, which resulted in the demand for an export version for front line countries. The world seemed to work better with the threat of the BETA over their heads, since all the major powers worked together to clear the hives (of course, there are still untold stories of politics taking place though.)

I believe your spoiler is incorrect.

Spoiler:

it's not Takemikazuchi.

The TSF in question is the Shiranui Type 2. (a.k.a Type 04) The one Yuuya is test piloting. It was later mass produced and given XM3. It was then given a trial run to capture a live hive intact. They managed to do so with no casualties.

The Imperial Army is actually disgruntled that the Shiranui Type 2 performs so well, because their pride doesn't like the fact that a foreign designed machine (remember that Shiranui is joint developed with Boenig) is going to be the successor for their ground troops.

I don't think the Type 00 Takemikazuchi is ever going to be exported or mass produced in mass. Something about nobles not liking low bred commoners and foreigners touching their machines.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I believe your spoiler is incorrect.

Spoiler:

it's not Takemikazuchi.

The TSF in question is the Shiranui Type 2. (a.k.a Type 04) The one Yuuya is test piloting. It was later mass produced and given XM3. It was then given a trial run to capture a live hive intact. They managed to do so with no casualties.

The Imperial Army is actually disgruntled that the Shiranui Type 2 performs so well, because their pride doesn't like the fact that a foreign designed machine (remember that Shiranui is joint developed with Boenig) is going to be the successor for their ground troops.

I don't think the Type 00 Takemikazuchi is ever going to be exported or mass produced in mass. Something about nobles not liking low bred commoners and foreigners touching their machines.

Do refer to TSFiA #14. There is no english translation at the moment, but here is the chinese one. http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6150892401015g5c.html

Read the article on the Take as well http://muvluv.wikia.com/wiki/Type-00_Takemikazuchi

Spoiler for TSF in Japan post Ouka:

The Type-04 was replacing the aging Type-94 and F-15Js that were the main line units of the IJA. Also, it was not the XFJ-01 that they were upset about, it was the other competitor, the F-15SEJ that was fully developed by Boenig incorporating things about Japanese pilots from the parallel XFJ project. Both the Type-04 and the F-15 SEJ were tested in the same operation to take the hive, but nothing was mentioned about no losses. It was only a small squad of test TSFs, and later the XFJ-01 Shiranui Second became the Type-04 when it was officially adopted to replace the aging TSFs. They appeared again later against another Hive with the reformed Valkryies, and not much was said about the numbers of type 04 they had at the time. The Takemi on the other hand... the floor was covered with them...

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[Key Board]

I don't understand Chinese, so I'll leave it at that

The TDA sidestory is too much of a gag for me to consider it to be canon.
Might as well consider Ayu's Super Robot TSF as canon if that is canon.

and by the top brass being disgruntled, as I paraphrase:

Even though they are UN pilots, the reformed Valkyries are still Japanese. So they have a sense of nationalism in them and they would like to stick up for their country is possible. This is not conjecture, it's explicitly said this way in the TSFia

So they are in fact, mildly ashamed to report to their supervisor that the Type 04 handles so well in the test. That's essentially saying that the best thing for the boots on the ground is something that is foreign made. Again, this is not conjecture, it's explicitly said this way in the TSFia

But if all the test pilots say the same thing, even the top brass will have to accept that the Type 04 is going to be the bread and butter TSF of the the next generations

Everythign I wrote is not conjecture, it's explicitly said this way in the TSFia

Spoiler:

“Long-range, medium-range, close-quarters melee and anti-Hive warfare. No matter what I try to do with this machine, it surprises me every time. It’s almost like they secretly learned every fetish an Imperial Eishi has about their TSFs and would want their TSFs to be. And then they made this thing here, that panders to everyone’s tastes. This is so fucking ridiculous, but I fucking love it.”
“...Though I feel sorry for doing this to Suzumiya, but even I have to agree with your sentiments.”
“Indeed, some of our bosses are not going to be too happy with our views though, but if their boss and their boss’s boss agrees with us grunts, then there is not much they can do is there?”
“Personally I’m still kind of leaning towards the other side, but damn these guys at Boening for making something so good and tempting.”
The conversation between the two here undoubtedly reflected the views and thoughts of everyone present here. Even though several pilots here served in the UN for most of their career, the rest of the Squadron served mainly with the IJA, their loyalty being unquestionable. Thus, it is perfectly understandable to feel a little uneasy at being asked to “prove” that this American TSF would be the better TSF for Japan and the future that awaits it.
Ultimately though, the majority of pilots here couldn’t give a honest shit about the political bickering and back door business deals involved behind this entire selection process. In the end, they are proud TSF pilots, and proud TSF pilots like to win, especially good ones like them. Eager to prove themselves superior in any competition, and furthermore to prove to those who are ridiculing them behind their backs for openly supporting a foreign design, showing to the world that that their views on this TSF are justified.

[Wild Goose]

Um, just a note, that's Munakata's comments on the F-15SEJ Gekkou, the IJA trial variant of the F-15SE Silent Eagle (which is essentially the same thing). Suzumiya Akane and her squadron are trialling the Type-04, aka Shiranui Niigata, aka Yuuya Bridges' One True Waifu.