2012-11-08, 11:50 | Link #61 | |
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Age: 41
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I think this whole thing could be solved if people would just use a more disarming tone and be more interested in having a conversation that leads to understanding than in just making their point and proving they're right. I think that fans of a work are among the most interested in having discussions about its content, but they don't necessarily want to be made to feel like they themselves are on trial for liking a work that someone else doesn't enjoy. And when you have people who seem, from their tone, to be only interested in putting fans on the defensive, it leads to question like the one that started this thread: "Why watch a show you don't like?" So I find that some people often say "fans don't want to have their favourite show criticised", but I think it's more that nobody wants to feel like they themselves are being criticised for their subjective personal tastes. The difference between the two (and so the reactions you're going to get as a result) comes down to the way each person chooses to express themselves. Change the tone, and you'll probably change the reaction.
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2012-11-08, 14:11 | Link #62 | |
Still Alive
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere far far away
Age: 30
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I agree that people who aren't interested in the show shouldn't waste their time watching it - unless of course you're a reviewer or blogger. But the way fans just decide to deny that their show can have/has flaws is just not healthy for any discussion just as much as mindless bashing isn't.
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Last edited by Eragon; 2012-11-08 at 14:28. |
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2012-11-08, 14:51 | Link #63 | ||||
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Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2012-11-08 at 15:23. |
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2012-11-08, 15:03 | Link #64 |
On a mission
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I feel a great problem is that it often can go beyond a show to the people themselves.
Zealous fans sometimes project themselves into a show and it's success, thus an attack on the show is an attack on them. On the other hand, zealous critics will project their anger onto the show's fans because they are what the show manifests to them in. Angry Critic: "I think Key promotes too many retarded characters!" Angry Fan: "Wait, are you saying I like retarded characters? Implying that I'm retarded too." Troll: Yes Though, perhaps we could use less inflammatory words. Often times this leads to arguments that have nothing to do with a show itself, ranging from the decline of anime to the fact that today's kids have no moral values. Or some other useless shit. Have you ever heard the term "overrated" as a criticism of a show? Sure, it's fine to label a show overrated, but how does the way people view a show improve or detract from the quality of the show itself? At the same time, you might have had the appeal to majority argument thrown out to you as some kind of way to reduce an argument. 2001: A Space Odyssey is a work renowned by many. I don't care. The book is much better anyways. By the way, stop telling people "they don't get it". Of course they don't get it, that's why this even happened in the first place. I feel that there must be a reason to entice people to get the meaning of a show. Sometimes people also reject a message even if they do get it. IMO, for any honest debate to occur, one must be able to express what THEY think to the rest of everyone else. Not what the critics think, not what they think everyone else thinks, but to have their own viewpoint instead of just leaping on a fan/hater bandwagon. Nobody wants overly polarized, stratified debate. If I wanted that, I'd tune to the politics of the United States. :S Also, if you're debating to change the other side's mind, you're doing it wrong. P.S. And no offense to anyone that does this, but saying "No offense" doesn't magically allow you to say whatever dickish thing you were going to say anyways. No offense, but that's just being dishonest; if you want to say something offensive, then do it without the pretense.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-11-08 at 15:24. |
2012-11-08, 15:38 | Link #65 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I find when people say "no offense" it tends to be extremely offensive.
And yeah the tone of the criticism matters a lot. I also think where you criticize can have an impact. For example if you are criticizing on a review or episode discussion that is one thing...but if you are going to a place where fans are just having fun I think that is rude. Intentions definitely matter. Edit: And yeah overrated tends to be a catch all phrase for "I don't like it". I try not to use it for that. If I use it tends to be only for series I enjoy but I still think gets too much praise in comparison to less popular series. Of course even in this sense it's still just an opinion. But too many people talk like their opinion is some undisputed fact.
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2012-11-08, 15:39 | Link #66 |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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I’m with you there. Being “overrated” is not the show’s fault. Also, I think when someone says a show is overrated, he/she is blaming the fans of the show (who overrate it), not the show itself. I know I do .
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2012-11-08, 20:24 | Link #68 | |
Blooming on the mountain
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....
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[whistles innocently] Btw - cute new avy Akito.
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2012-11-08, 22:26 | Link #69 | |
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Age: 41
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(I've seen people try to argue before that the very sight of the "blind fanboy" is offensive, and this is what causes people to be so attacking in their critique. But why get offended by unreasonable people? That doesn't mean there aren't any reasonable fans out there; they may just have to cut through the noise from time to time.)
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2012-11-09, 04:29 | Link #70 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I used to watch a lot of bad shows because I had a lot of time. I still ended up dropping them sometime down the line and felt I completely wasted my time doing it. Now that I have less time I stick with the 1 episode rule. If it doesn't make me want to watch the next episode I'll drop it.
If it turns out good I'll hear about it and pick it up down the line. I have a pretty big back log anyways so there's no need to watch stuff on release. |
2012-11-09, 04:35 | Link #71 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The kind of behavior you described is certainly wrong, but sometimes there are people that simply express their criticism and yet some angry fans do not see the difference and threat them like they are obnoxious party poopers. The "cycle of us vs them" can happen regardless of your critical attitude, when you deal with people that don't want any criticism at all. You can say "well you shouldn't be baited by that", true, but once again this still works both ways. Answering to a flaming closed minded angry fan isn't any more wrong than answering to a flaming arrogant basher. To make an example: I have once been insta-flamed after a review of a work that I considered near perfect. I just mentioned two flaws.
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2012-11-09, 05:00 | Link #73 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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But then again that's just how things work there. You don't get as much offended by a friend calling you idiot than you would if it was a total stranger. Anyway, I think everyone here was talking about their experiences in this particular forum.
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2012-11-09, 06:05 | Link #75 | ||
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I still say the questions to ask are things like: was I being constructive? Was I being considerate? Was I being fair? Did I read the thread in question before posting to make sure I was reading the mood of the room (and not just cold-posting)? Was my main interest in being inclusive and understanding? If you answered yes to all these things (and similar), then you've done what you can. I don't know about your specific example, so perhaps there was some specific reason why this may have made sense in context. Sometimes it isn't whether you liked something overall or not, but that the person disagrees with whatever specific flaw you listed for whatever reason. It might give the impression that they want nothing but praise, but perhaps it's just that specific criticism they find tiring. Who knows...
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2012-11-09, 06:18 | Link #76 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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No that wasn't an issue with reputation. You can't really call it "flame" when you get negrepped, as bad as it can be sometimes it can't really degenerate in a heated and pointless discussion.
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This forum tends to have homugous threads in terms of word counts, and they also can have a life span of several years. Expecting someone to read the whole thread in order to avoid restating issues that have been discussed two years before is really dickish in my opinion. And just because someone has done the same critique before, it doesn't mean I shouldn't be entitled to express the same opinion. In the same way several persons can state that they liked X because of Y even if a hundred persons said the same thing before.
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2012-11-09, 07:36 | Link #77 |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I skipped through a good chunk of the thread, but I'm going drop in my opinion anyway.
It's not really all that bad here. In a certain forum I go to (which is, admittedly, not anime-related), posters react particularly badly towards criticisms, or another in which no discussion whatsoever happens at all. I'm really glad that some semblance of discussion usually happens here, but I don't really frequent the SAO subforum or any of the other threads for more popular series, so I might be mistaken. On the OP's question, I do usually drop a show that gradually gets worse and worse. Sometimes, you just can't help but keep doing so especially as a series gets longer. It becomes increasingly harder to let go of, but that really is a personal choice in the end. If want to say what I think of a bad show, there should be nothing wrong with me saying it. Opinions are opinions after all. One of these days, someone should create separate threads for praises and criticisms in the subforums. Maybe that will make everyone happy... though probably not.
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2012-11-09, 12:19 | Link #79 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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And you can say what you want to repetition not withstanding but it just becomes more difficult to do so as time goes on. Whether the difficulty stems from trying to have a substantial discussion or trying to avoid people telling you we've talked about this before or something to that effect. It's like, say, the upteenth Kugimiya romance anime; produce it if you want to but expect your share of
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2012-11-09, 15:33 | Link #80 | |
18782+18782=37564
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