[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

On the positive side the manga explained why Ange's character "regressed" in Ep 8.
They said that seeing Bern's game in Ep 7 Teaparty caused her to reject her understanding of Eva and decide she had to be the culprit.

When was this said?

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Maybe Kyrie even flipped the switch on the clock, using her chessboard logic (but getting it so wrong). That would be ironic.

I find the prospect ridiculous. Why would anyone believe the story about the bomb but not believe when Beatrice tells them it's in the off position? Chessboard logic dictates that Beatrice isn't lying about the clock being in the off position, because if Beatrice meant for everyone to blow up, she has nothing to gain by telling them anything.

Of course, in the story they really did freak out about the bomb switch. And it was dumb then, too.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Who knows... maybe there were no killings at all until the bomb exploded.

The problem with this is Eva. Why was Eva outside the bomb radius? And if she was only by some coincidence, why would she hide the truth?

[Renall]

I'm not sure I can buy "fleeing" to Kuwadorian. The nature of the bomb makes that seem very unlikely. If you know the bomb is going to go off, and you have access to the tunnels, you have access to the switch. You can't run away from the bomb if you're anywhere near its radius when it goes off. It just isn't possible (see ep2 with Rosa etc.). If you know about it well in advance and other people are alive, you have time to either disable the bomb or - if you can't be sure which orientation is OFF and which is ON - gather everyone up and move them to Kuwadorian. Surely Eva and Battler would both have attempted to do this if they could have.

The problem then is why they couldn't. The only reasons I can think of either require that everyone else be dead or that Battler/Eva believes them all to be dead... but then the switch also still has to be set to blow, meaning someone has to have set it. The only people we know for certain know of the bomb are Yasu and Genji. If the deaths were faked, Yasu has no reason to set the bomb and Genji won't do it if he's not ordered to. If Yasu intends to kill everyone, then she has no reason to tell anyone about the bomb's existence and thus Battler/Eva should have no reason to believe they need to get to a safe distance.

That leaves open the prospect that Yasu told someone about it, like in ep7. But if she did, it means somebody found out about it and then decided to activate it. We can't be entirely sure why, but I don't buy the idea that someone would decide to go on a murder spree and use the bomb to cover it up, because it's implausible that someone would believe it would definitely work. You don't commit mass murder on a maybe. There are certainly other reasons to set it, but you'd think Yasu or Genji would check on it at some point just to be sure it's not on...

[Dormin]

Hell, maybe they didn't even believe in any goddamn bomb and the switch. I believe this was discussed somewhere before, as the bombs exists somewhere hidden, Yasu has no evidence of bomb threat being even true. Maybe nobody even believed her and thought she was just kidding and trying to pull a prank, and someone started jokingly flipping the switch on the bomb. I can totally see that happening, maybe Eva not giving a fuck about threats of a lowly servant.

That leaves open the prospect that Yasu told someone about it, like in ep7. But if she did, it means somebody found out about it and then decided to activate it. We can't be entirely sure why, but I don't buy the idea that someone would decide to go on a murder spree and use the bomb to cover it up, because it's implausible that someone would believe it would definitely work. You don't commit mass murder on a maybe. There are certainly other reasons to set it, but you'd think Yasu or Genji would check on it at some point just to be sure it's not on...

The entire concept of "mass murder" is a very wild card because mass murders rarely happen: and now I'm talking about similar murders like in the story: supposedly lone culprit manages to execute everyone without anyone taking necessary steps to fight back. Or hide. The most logical step when guns start blazing would probably be to run, and fast, as far away from the killer as you can. If the survivors would simply hide in the forest, culprit would have almost zero ways of finding them in the dark. So even the concept of "mass murder" in the way it is implicated to have happened is kind of unrealistic, though not impossible: the killer would somehow had to hide the fact that he has been involved in a terrible act, and the island is full of people that could hear the gunshots or see the act itself.

This way "using bomb to hide evidence" is a logical step, though arriving in this step would have to be the most unrealistic killings in a long time. However, if we consider the bomb as hiding factor (let's say that Eva detonates the bomb to hide her involvement), I don't see why that couldn't be possible if the person flipping the switch doesn't have anything to lose. If everyone is already dead on the island, why wouldn't the culprit/anyone that's covering anything set the bomb anyway?

Also considering the culprit on the prime, I'm still very positive it was Kyrie and co. We have given some very strong implications, but as it has already become clear that the matter of "true culprit" has been intentionally left open, I guess my belief is something I "want to believe" because I personally want it to be true.

Can the manga be considered canon? I mean I know it's written by him, but it's still an adaptation and sometimes scenes are shortened or different and I always feel weird letting any adaptation be used as evidence for the original. An author can decide later to add something in that doesn't work in the originals but works in the manga, which would create inconsistencies. I think VNs and official statements on the VNs should be all that's used to prove or argue anything.

Well, yeah, I guess you have a point. No matter have you look at it however, I believe Ryu intended it to be "canon", but it has some "fixed" material and scenes that appear to be different from the VN, as have been discussed before. I don't think he would write something "alternative" without clearly stating so.

I'd myself consider it as canon as the umineko anime adaption, that I must remind, nobody likes.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Dormin

This way "using bomb to hide evidence" is a logical step, though arriving in this step would have to be the most unrealistic killings in a long time. However, if we consider the bomb as hiding factor (let's say that Eva detonates the bomb to hide her involvement), I don't see why that couldn't be possible if the person flipping the switch doesn't have anything to lose. If everyone is already dead on the island, why wouldn't the culprit/anyone that's covering anything set the bomb anyway?

There's a big difference between "Everyone's dead for various reasons, so I have nothing to lose" (which could apply even if no one was actually dead) and "Oh, this can blow everything up? Well, that sounds perfectly reasonable and I'll rely on it because you told me so. Time to go hunt down and shoot/stab everyone else to death."

If Kyrie honestly were in an appropriate position like ep7 with the mentality to kill everyone, the best thing to do is just shoot all the other adults and Yasu and start carrying gold bars to Kuwadorian while Rudolf goes topside, clocks Battler upside the head, and drags him through the tunnels. If a halfway intelligent killer believes that the bomb will work, then they'd use it because it eliminates uncertainties. The fact that somebody didn't do this suggests to me that either somebody did something stupid and screwed up (which would lend more to the "tragic sequence of paranoia" interpretation) or nobody actually believed the bomb thing in the first place and, at best, activated it only when they thought they had nothing to lose.

I'm also fond of the idea of somebody activating it to kill an uncertain killer, although I'm not sure that mystery-fond Yasu would do something that desperate rather than try to identify the actual culprit.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

When was this said?

It's in chapter 9 of the Episode 8 manga.
Eva is blaming herself that she could not become a mother to Ange and let her grief take over her whole life. Beato responds that it was neither her nor Ange's fault, they were too caught up in a vortex of loneliness and sadness, leading to them failing to understand each other.
Then she goes on that formerly Ange at least understood Eva, but it was through what Lady Bernkastel had been thrusting at her that her vision became clouded (in the background the "This is all truth" scene from EP7), but she believes that one day Ange will remember.

The scene is interesting in general, as it also contains a lot of little side information. When Battler starts speaking to sleeping Ange first he says the following thing:
Ange, I wonder if you already noticed...
This place that I invited you to is actually a little different from a gameboard
It's a place close to the Golden Land
The world that you refused before
Where all the souls of the dead revive
And all existences can be equal...
That is why grandfather or Shannon-Kanon...Beatrice...all the people that can not meet in existence can exist here equally
Maria said this once I think
Halloween is time when the world of the living and the world of the dead are closest...
That is why this Halloween party is, Ange, our last present for you

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

When was this said?

Ep 8 chap 9. It's said in the past Ange was even capable to understand Eva (and there's a scene from Ep 4 when she realized she was the one who was supposed to be at Eva's side) but that now, due to the things Berncastel thrust at her once again she had cluded her eyes (and there's a pic of Bern saying "This is all the truth, which I guess, is supposed to represent a scene from Ep 7 Teaparty)

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I find the prospect ridiculous. Why would anyone believe the story about the bomb but not believe when Beatrice tells them it's in the off position? Chessboard logic dictates that Beatrice isn't lying about the clock being in the off position, because if Beatrice meant for everyone to blow up, she has nothing to gain by telling them anything.

I think we can't reason on the logic behind switching the bomb on unless we know what went on. Depending on the setting, Beato's words (if it was Beato who informed the adults about the switch and no someone else like... let's say Genji) might have looked believable or unbelievable.
After all the setting Beato set up in the gameboards is pretty strange. She wants to murder people according to an epitaph and then blast everything away, herself included. It'll be easier to just blast everything away if she really planned to kill everyone and herself.

If the setting was the same as in Ep 7 Teaparty... honestly I don't believe Kyrie would have been the type to turn on the switch by mistakenly reading her intentions.

With different settings... I guess all the bets are open.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The problem with this is Eva. Why was Eva outside the bomb radius? And if she was only by some coincidence, why would she hide the truth?

Yes, even if it was by coincidence she must believe she knew something that would be better to hide, expecially to Ange.
However it seems more likely she went there not by coincidence but by purpose and that, although it's possible she didn't know the full truth, the bit she knew was compromising enough for someone, likely either Kyrie or Rudolf.

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm not sure I can buy "fleeing" to Kuwadorian. The nature of the bomb makes that seem very unlikely. If you know the bomb is going to go off, and you have access to the tunnels, you have access to the switch. You can't run away from the bomb if you're anywhere near its radius when it goes off. It just isn't possible (see ep2 with Rosa etc.). If you know about it well in advance and other people are alive, you have time to either disable the bomb or - if you can't be sure which orientation is OFF and which is ON - gather everyone up and move them to Kuwadorian. Surely Eva and Battler would both have attempted to do this if they could have.

The problem then is why they couldn't. The only reasons I can think of either require that everyone else be dead or that Battler/Eva believes them all to be dead... but then the switch also still has to be set to blow, meaning someone has to have set it. The only people we know for certain know of the bomb are Yasu and Genji. If the deaths were faked, Yasu has no reason to set the bomb and Genji won't do it if he's not ordered to. If Yasu intends to kill everyone, then she has no reason to tell anyone about the bomb's existence and thus Battler/Eva should have no reason to believe they need to get to a safe distance.

That leaves open the prospect that Yasu told someone about it, like in ep7. But if she did, it means somebody found out about it and then decided to activate it. We can't be entirely sure why, but I don't buy the idea that someone would decide to go on a murder spree and use the bomb to cover it up, because it's implausible that someone would believe it would definitely work. You don't commit mass murder on a maybe. There are certainly other reasons to set it, but you'd think Yasu or Genji would check on it at some point just to be sure it's not on...

It can be the switch, after being turned on, broke, or that Battler and Eva were informed a bomb was about to explode but not where the switch was.

Still they would have tried to save the others if the others had been alive so the others need to be dead or at least assumed to be dead.

[MysteriousLurkerGuy]

I think Yasu had to tell somebody about the bomb. It's part and parcel of solving the epitaph, and there's too many hints in the Hachijo forgeries for someone not to have solved it (not to mention, if it isn't solved, what is Eva doing with the ring, and what are both of them doing in the tunnels?).

With everybody or nearly everybody else dead, I think that someone set the bomb in order to force Battler and Eva to escape, rather than load up on gold bricks or scour the island for a killer. If that someone was armed, and Eva for whatever reason wasn't (out of ammo?), that would easily rectify someone trying to go for the trigger.

If that someone was Yasu, that pretty much spells it out. Battler realizes (s)he's going to commit suicide, turns back, Yasu has to call an audible and leads him down to the sub base.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by MysteriousLurkerGuy

With everybody or nearly everybody else dead, I think that someone set the bomb in order to force Battler and Eva to escape, rather than load up on gold bricks or scour the island for a killer. If that someone was armed, and Eva for whatever reason wasn't (out of ammo?), that would easily rectify someone trying to go for the trigger.

If that someone was Yasu, that pretty much spells it out. Battler realizes (s)he's going to commit suicide, turns back, Yasu has to call an audible and leads him down to the sub base.

That is actually not a bad idea and would kinda explain the whole situation at the end perfectly well. It actually ties in with a lot of ideas. Eva ending up at Kuwadorian alone, Battler ending up in a different place, Yasu's wish to return everything to the Golden land.

That would also kind of explain Eva saying that she "cannot say anything" and the whole idea of the union between BATTLER, Beatrice and Eva/EVA (with the agreement of the rest of the meta-cast) hinted at in EP8.
Shit goes down and people die but for some reason Yasu, Battler and Eva survive. They decide together to opt for the explosion to cover everything up and set the timer to explode. Yasu obviously would want to die with everybody, or rather go to her Golden Land, Battler would disagree and at least attempt to take her with him. While escaping something goes wrong...which could just be the tunnels collapsing when the explosion happens...and Eva is separated by being further ahead. Since she is the only one to be found the next morning, she believes Battler (and Yasu) to have died as well.

This is actually something that would almost (still in a twisted way though) would be able to explain Eva's weird behavior.

[Renall]

It would; Eva would have survivor's guilt in that she knows Battler was alive and safe and innocent and she would believe that she could have or should have done something to keep him that way. I mean, how terrible would it be to have lived through a weekend of Hell only to manage to save Ange's brother, have him right there in front of you safe and sound... and then (as far as you know) lose him again? It would be especially bad if Eva was suspicious of or didn't really trust Yasu, as it would make her fear that she'd let Battler rush back into the arms of someone who would hurt him.

Or worse... what if Eva got the sense that both Battler and Yasu planned to commit suicide together? What if she sort of couldn't stop them, and in a way understood how they felt? I mean, there's no way she could ever explain to Ange that her brother killed himself and Eva let him do it. After the fact, she'd assuredly feel like she should've tried to stop them, even knowing she probably couldn't. Battler of course survived miraculously, but there's no way for Eva to know that.

So either way under such a scenario, Eva would feel pretty bad about it and explaining it to Ange would be nearly impossible until she's much, much older. Like not 18 older, more like 40 older. It's a very complicated situation that would almost certainly result in Ange exploding with rage that Eva didn't do something, and Eva wouldn't really be able to disagree with her.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

It would; Eva would have survivor's guilt in that she knows Battler was alive and safe and innocent and she would believe that she could have or should have done something to keep him that way. I mean, how terrible would it be to have lived through a weekend of Hell only to manage to save Ange's brother, have him right there in front of you safe and sound... and then (as far as you know) lose him again? It would be especially bad if Eva was suspicious of or didn't really trust Yasu, as it would make her fear that she'd let Battler rush back into the arms of someone who would hurt him.

Or worse... what if Eva got the sense that both Battler and Yasu planned to commit suicide together? What if she sort of couldn't stop them, and in a way understood how they felt? I mean, there's no way she could ever explain to Ange that her brother killed himself and Eva let him do it. After the fact, she'd assuredly feel like she should've tried to stop them, even knowing she probably couldn't. Battler of course survived miraculously, but there's no way for Eva to know that.

So either way under such a scenario, Eva would feel pretty bad about it and explaining it to Ange would be nearly impossible until she's much, much older. Like not 18 older, more like 40 older. It's a very complicated situation that would almost certainly result in Ange exploding with rage that Eva didn't do something, and Eva wouldn't really be able to disagree with her.

Yes, this theory would work pretty well witht he info we're given and the character behaviour of the guys.

[Wanderer]

It's not a bad idea, but it's only like 10% of the problem. The hard part is explaining how everyone else ended up presumed dead.

And if Yasu is still alive at that time, it's very unlikely that she'd be under any mistaken impressions about who is really dead and who is really alive.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It's not a bad idea, but it's only like 10% of the problem. The hard part is explaining how everyone else ended up presumed dead.

And if Yasu is still alive at that time, it's very unlikely that she'd be under any mistaken impressions about who is really dead and who is really alive.

Actually it makes the situation a little less problematic, because a situation where somebody looses it and actually murders somebody by accident, which could trigger a chain reaction CAN happen and it doesn't depend as strongly on somebody who is sure to get away with something that horrible.
It doesn't need maniacally laughing Kyrie and Rudolph killing everybody in an insane killing spree, it'd just require them to and up in a messed up situation where they want to cover up their crimes and ended up being killed themselves or at least in such a compromising situation that Eva, Battler and Yasu would leave them to die.

[jjblue1]

Honestly a fave solution of mine as a trigger is that Krauss were to commit suicide in order to confess the embellizment, spare himself from the shame and hope his siblings would pity Natsuhi and Jessica and not involve them and Natsuhi hides the suicide letter to avoid dishonour (or the letter falls somewhere and goes unseen) and blames the others for his death (because he somehow sounded like one who could commit suicide in EP 5).

Everyone would have to deal with someone who's clearly dead and, if they fail to realize it's a suicide or don't believe it as such, it can generate a quickly explosive situation.

The door was closed and only the servants have the key but they've no reason to kill Krauss unless they're insane so was it one of the siblings?
Eva would be the best candidate but Eva knows she didn't do it so was it Rudolf trying to frame her as he would be the next in line?
Or Natsuhi trying to get her hands on the inheritance?
And where's Kinzo in all this? Natsuhi won't manage to cover up his absence for long.
And Jessica is likely furious and desperate for her father's death and Rosa might not react well to seeing a corpse and what if Yasu had sent Beatrice's letter? Maybe she didn't aim to kill anyone but surely with a corpse around the letter seems to be involved.
Interesting enough, at the same time to see someone really dead might knock out of Yasu any murdering purpose she might have had.
Also, even if Nanjo were to say Krauss' death was suicide according to his inspection people might not believe him as he's been covering up for the lie of Kinzo being alive. So what would stop him from covering up for someone else?
And what if she was accused as the servant in the intro of Ep 7 and Battler insisted she was with him? How would George take it? What if it's George who covers for Yasu and Battler isn't just slightly jealous as in EP 7 Teaparty but a bit more angry than that?
And of course someone might notice Kanon is also missing...

There's enough to place everyone in an unpleasant position and, at the same time, make him suspicious of everyone else.

[chaos_alfa]

It seems MangaGamer has began selling the Japanese version of Umineko on their site.
http://www.mangagamer.com/detail.php...roduct_code=93
http://www.mangagamer.com/detail.php...roduct_code=94

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I have a much simpler and cleaner theory on what happened on Rokkenjima. If we recall, in the 7th game, there was the shootout between the Japanese and Italians. Lion and Will learn of this "magically" from Kinzo.

Blue Truth: This was recorded in a Diary, or perhaps even in the Book of Single Truth. Battler and Yasu were exposed to the truth during the First day of 1986. They decided to re-enact the entire scenario, up to the point of Battler "kidnapping" Beatrice and escaping.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Blue Truth: This was recorded in a Diary, or perhaps even in the Book of Single Truth. Battler and Yasu were exposed to the truth during the First day of 1986. They decided to re-enact the entire scenario, up to the point of Battler "kidnapping" Beatrice and escaping.

Interesting theory! I don't think I've heard that before.

What do you propose as Battler and Yasu's reason for choosing to re-enact the scenario? And in that theory, would the deaths of the other people on the island be a deliberate part of that re-enactment, and if so, why? And if not, why did the deaths happen?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Interesting theory! I don't think I've heard that before.

What do you propose as Battler and Yasu's reason for choosing to re-enact the scenario? And in that theory, would the deaths of the other people on the island be a deliberate part of that re-enactment, and if so, why? And if not, why did the deaths happen?

Hm, allow me to re-write. Yasu wanted to re-enact the scene, with Battler figuring out Yasu's intentions by the time the Ninth Twilight ended.(As seen in the 5th game, and as Will said in Beatrice's funeral: Battler didn't make it in time)

As theorized by others(and so I'll plagarize for my theory), Yasu possibly brought off some of the family members to play dead. That may have been part of the re-enactment. I propose that the 4th game is the true events of what happened on Prime(Natsuhi had 'Kinzo' announce that the grandchildren would inherit it), they probably planned on rigging it for Jessica. But what happened was, someone discovered the plot and wanted the gold for themselves, really killing the fake participants

In my original interpretation(which I admit isn't all that strong, nor did I have a backstory for it). I'd say that Battler and Yasu did it as some kind of mystery, or as a tribute to her mother Beatrice. Or perhaps, it just sounded romantic to them.

[Andor-sama]

Happy October 6. everyone

I'd like to post the theory me and my friend made through hard work to commemorate the anniversary of Umineko. I don't know if it's already stated or obvious for some of you, but we reached this conclusion on our own and feel free to comment on it either supporting or denying the theory. Actually I’d be more than happy to start a long debate about it.
I don't think it's surprising but I don’t have time to read all the past contents of this topic generated over 3-4 years (but I will definitely read it somewhen though).
This theory is about Erika's very existence since it is hard to place her if we are looking from the real world perspective and the whole topic is up to debate.
The theory is based on the Shkanon line of thoughts, I won’t explain the basic stuff!

Theories

-Erika as the young girl who fell off a boat
I don't really want to deny the possibility of she being a totally individual person who might really have been there at Rokkenjima the time the murders occured. A new human character on the island is unprecedented up to EP5 thus handling the reasonings about her freely - if we still stay true to the main context of umineko - is possible. Actually Erika's accident could've happened out of the cat box. Genji was able to contact the world so we can conclude that Erika’s accident is either happened while the catbox haven’t even been established or it is already inside the cat box even though it happened out of the island (similar to Ange’s fictional future, which is based on reality). The problem with this theory is that the clues are significantly limited but it is not hard to imagine Battler getting information in the future about a girl who fell out of a ship just before the murders happened and he couldn’t decide if she was present or not due to his circumstances we all know. Anyway this is also a fascinating theory for me but isn’t the one I will be talking about.


-Erika magic (role played by someone)
This is a really tough topic, because some people really think that this is also a possibility... Since battler on the chess board could meet her from early chiru this means that the whole theory’s base is uncertain, also this would be a proof of the theory I already mentioned. It is impossible that someone is dressing up as Erika and play her part since she interacts with everyone else in front of other people including Battler. Since I can’t answer this contradiction I just leave it up to you guys


-Erika and Ange
Okay so I get to the main point and this theory is based on the idea that Battler is writing the episodes we read. Beatrice also wrote a few episodes, the first 2 I assume.
I think Erika is the manifestation of Ange’s will and personality - which wants to find the truth at all cost - in the books including both the magical plane and the chess board. First of all we can seperate the episodes Battler and Beatrice wrote. It is almost certain that Beatrice wrote more than 1 episodes and threw it into the ocean. As Umineko being a compilation of forgeries it is one of the hardest part for us readers to seperate reality from the contents of the books inside the story aka fiction based on Battler’s hazy memories. I am sure people found at least 2 of Beatrice’s works according to all the information we acquired about witch hunters throught EP4-8. The difference between the first 2 and all other episodes are apparent and implies that the authors are 2 different person. For example only the EP3-8 contain information such as Eva’s survival, which are only observable if the one who wrote the forgery have survived the murders and we know Beatrice hadn’t. There is also possibility that Beatrice just made a good guess but Ange is also a good example. From EP3 Ange appears in every single episode and has a great effect on our thinking and should be called the 2nd heroine of Umineko. But Ange did not hold any significance from Beatrice’s perspective (but from Battler’s) so it would be rather strange if she had written so many about her. Here I would also mention that in my opinion all the future scenes with Ange are also part of the forgeries, presenting us some variants about what could’ve happened with Ange after the murders. I’d exclude the last one where we have to choose from the trick and magic ending because those are real variants which occour in accordance to our choice.
Anyway my conclusion is that EP1-2 was written by Beatrice and EP3-8 by Battler.

Now the hardcore fans would already spot the lie in the previous statements. Ange did not appear in EP5. So now I am getting down to all the clues about Ange and Erika being the same person, because that would answer this contradiction.

Clues

-Ange appears in every EP excluding 1,2,5. It is obvious that Beatrice did not think that Ange was a significant character. She is a little kid and also couldn’t make it to the family conference because of her illness. But EP 5 is a mistery, combo breaker. Every other episode centers around Ange since she is the survivor, the witch and detective of future. We get to know how dramatic this situation is through Ange’s eyes. Battler was thinking a lot about his little sister and I believe the forgeries were also dedicated to her, that’s why it is so peculiar that Ange did not appear in a whole episode. This is a really indirect and vague reason why I think Ange’s abscene from EP5 is a clue towards Ange and Erika being the same since it all summs up well if they are the same person.

-Bernkastel was a key character of the story’s magical side and only 2 of her subordinates appeared. Ange and Erika, and they both are breaking many rules like ’You cannot place someone on the chessboard who couldn’t have been there’.

-Erika is a hybrid of Bernkastel’s and Ange’s appearance. Erika’s hair style is the same as Ange’s just a bit longer and blue like Bernkastel’s. Erika’s clothes were borrowed from Jessica so I don’t really give this part much significance but Ange’s and Erika’s ribbons are identical and unique, just their color what doesn’t match, everyone else has totally different kind of ribbon or necktie.

-Their names. 右代宮 縁寿 (Ushiromiya Ange)
縁 can stand for ’border’ and 寿 can stand for ’long age’
古戸 ヱリカ (Furudo Erika)
Literally 古 means ’old’ and 戸 means ’door’
So we can find the connection between ’long aged border’ and ’old door’

-In every episode either Ange or Erika meets a bad ending which are all fictionals in my opinion.
ep3: Ange jumps down from the top of the building and dies
ep4: Ange becomes a chunk of meat
ep5: Erika gets pierced by blue stakes while suffers defeat from Battler
ep6: Battler and Beatrice kill Erika and in the meanwhile Ange gets going to Rokkenjima where she will die if she doesn’t give up on searching the truth and she herself becomes a murderer.
ep7: Ange becomes a chunk of meat yet again
ep8: Ange is in the center of the trick ending and miraculously she meets Erika in her delusions even though Erika should be solely fictional character and the Ange from this world has no direct connection to the chess board or magic plane thus ever meeting with Erika before is impossible, she shouldn’t even be able to imagine her. Even that much is questionable if she is the same Ange as the one who stopped by Aurora’s house in EP6. Also they say „GOOD” at the same time giving the perfect last words for the trick ending. Not to mention Ange takes on Erika’s style and thinking in the last scenes.
Well the ep8 endings might not be fictional but both are possibilities in my personal opinion. Thats why it is so odd that Ange can meet Erika in this scene.

-There are only two witches in the whole story who share the same title, Erika and Ange. If Ange can get over all what happened, she abandons her title as the witch of truth also abandoning the bad side of her, Erika. This is why Erika doesn’t appear in the good ending of EP8, the magic ending.

-Only two people appeared on the chessboard without the possibility of being there in reality and they were Erika and Ange. I’d say Ange is the one single exception who can be placed on the board and Erika is a part of Ange so she can be placed too. Anyway they have too many stuff in common like how they look like, how they behave and what happens to them.

-We can find some of Ange’s behaviour patterns in Erika. Like Erika’s attitude towards Battler. It is known that Ange holds a grudge against Battler for not returning to her, after all he could’ve done it. Erika is the antagonist Battler fighting through EP5-6 but she still wants to get Battler back from Beatrice with the marriage etc. These kind of actions would be triggered by similar emotional background to Ange
Also Erika’s childish way of quarreling with Maria might represent Ange’s past where she was banished from Mariage Sorciere.
And they both use english phrases frequently.

-When little Ange faces black Battler, the two who save her are EVA and Erika. Ange’s relationship with EVA is clear. How comes Erika was teaming up with EVA? It can be answered if we look from the magical perspective and just let it slide saying they are comrades but if we look from the reality perspective it would be a clue pointing out that Ange and Erika has some kind of thight relation.

That would be it for now We've made it about a year ago thus I might forgot some clues but if I remember any more I'll add it later

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Andor-sama

So now I am getting down to all the clues about Ange and Erika being the same person, because that would answer this contradiction.

I actually made this connection in a post before, though not in as much details, and I really like what you (or you two) did there. I'm definitely in on the idea that, at least, Ange and Erika are closely tied together, which you also mentioned is hinted in the Trick ending.

I actually see this all over EP8, and if we take Chiru also as an illustration of Ange's journey from right after the message hit her to the point where she became bitter and lost it, then her encounters with Erika in EP8 make a lot of sense.

When we consider the scene where she is saved by EVA and Erika as even more metaphorical then we could understand it in a way, that this illustrates how the creation of the Rudolph-branch-family culprit theory destroyed Ange but what saved her was (A) the possibility of Eva's guilt no matter how unlikely (personified by EVA as in EP3) and (B) her own conviction into solving this mystery in her own way, which transformed into Furudo Erika.

This actually gives EP6 a very interesting, almost slightly perverse new perspective, in the way that Erika wants not only to destroy Beatrice and blame somebody on the island, she also wants to marry Battler, she wants to make him her's alone in the form of a puppet. This is kind of what Ange is doing in the way that she does not want to let go of her ideal of Battler, she tries to freeze him in this momentary light that she got of him and decide everything else about the incident by herself.

[Andor-sama]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I actually see this all over EP8, and if we take Chiru also as an illustration of Ange's journey from right after the message hit her to the point where she became bitter and lost it, then her encounters with Erika in EP8 make a lot of sense.

When we consider the scene where she is saved by EVA and Erika as even more metaphorical then we could understand it in a way, that this illustrates how the creation of the Rudolph-branch-family culprit theory destroyed Ange but what saved her was (A) the possibility of Eva's guilt no matter how unlikely (personified by EVA as in EP3) and (B) her own conviction into solving this mystery in her own way, which transformed into Furudo Erika.

I did not get this far with Ange and Erika's encounters but my mind is blown with this idea. I should probably go through chiru searching for the connections how the books display Ange's developement.