F/SN UBW TV - Episode 20 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Levani

Meaning it happens in the VN too? What madness is this. I guess we can just ignore that rule about contracts since nothing of sort is said in the actual visual novel. All is fine like this.

Number of CS in VN and anime before Archer betrayal: 1

Number of CS in VN after Saber contract: 2 (probably got Caster's remaining 2 CS)

Number of CS in anime after Saber contract: 3 (probably got both Caster's remaining 2 CS, as well as the one she had left from before)


Additionally from the posted CM:

A: Even when contracted with multiple Servants, a Master only receives three Command Spells (assuming none have been stolen from other Masters, etc.), so you can’t have four Command Spells for a single Servant or anything like that. Also, there’s nothing wrong with concentrating all Command Spells on a single Servant. The problems begin after all Command Spells have been used up.

[Klashikari]

Except that Caster's Command Spells are defined as "fake" by the materials as well.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Except that Caster's Command Spells are defined as "fake" by the materials as well.

In that case Rin simply got the "unused ones" from Assassin, since TA was never summoned in the UBW route. That means, in a way, the anime fixed a plot hole from the VN.

[Skidda]

It seems Caster gained 3 command spells when she obtained Saber as well so I'm thinking it's an anime only rule and not an oversight. It's consistent and it doesn't change much so I think it's fine.

Archer surviving despite his lack of mana was already a problem in the VN, only later. The worst has yet to come and it's canon.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

In that case Rin simply got the "unused ones" from Assassin, since TA was never summoned in the UBW route. That means, in a way, the anime fixed a plot hole from the VN.

That's what I thought, but even in HF, Zouken didn't receive any of them, and the materials confirmed that "even though they were fake, Caster still had them, so no CS for Zouken".

It seems even now, materials about CS are contradicting all the time.

[Rising Dragon]

The problem with Type-Moon is that when they retcon something, they do it heavy-handedly in an awkward manner that directly contradicts things that happen in the original story.

Case in point? Shirou and Archer being unable to Trace Excalibur. That retcon happened well after the VN happened (and probably on urging of Takeuchi to make his waifu more special)... AFTER a scene in the VN had Shirou Tracing and using Excalibur in Heaven's Feel (it's not directly stated to be Excalibur, but come on. What other "most powerful sword" could he have used in a route where he didn't get thrust into UBW or see Ea in action?)

As for Rin regaining command seals, it's entirely possible that she could've gotten her old one back and Caster's unused ones. We already know that a former Master can regain their Command Seals, even without being contracted to a Servant, depending on the circumstances.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

A Master doesn't receive any extra command spells, regardless the number of contracts they have performed with Servants.

Kirei used Command Spells on Assassin, yet still got three new ones for Gilgamesh.

If it helps, just imagine she has her 1 from Archer and 2 from Shirou.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm usually not nitpicky when an anime series take some liberties in the adaptation (and Ufotable did improve the franchise with few stuff in FSN in general) and I have a love-hate relationship when it comes to FSN lore but...

There are 2 big issues here which seem to be glaring oversight. Namely Rin with 3 command spells (visible when she was talking to lancer), and Archer being able to cast UBW despite being masterless -and- running out of Mana.

In any case, I'm certainly the minority here (again?) but this episode was more or less a bag of mixed feelings for me.
I really liked lancer's scenes, but I just couldn't dig Archer/Shirou ones at all. Archer's emotions were raw and intense, but everything related to Shirou were so slow and dull I couldn't really enjoy them (partly because I probably don't care about him to begin with).
No matter how Ufotable tried to embellish this part, Shirou's logic remains as empty as it was in the VN, so jokes aside, the whole "you are right / correct" part just couldn't click on me, because Shirou just came out as a brat who arrogantly believes he "won't" be like Archer.

I wouldn't have trouble with Shirou trying his best to turn the tables against that potential future, but the whole conviction in being a superhero just left me completely uninterested from start to finish.

For what it's worth, I do kinda understand what you mean. I thought Shirou's determination and answer to Archer was BS too, even back when I read it in the novel.

Spoiler for Game thread:

Originally Posted by Haak

Then Shirou defeats a foe that he shouldn't be able to defeat with...determination. Yeah that's right determination. Well that's just fantastic. Can't expect Shirou to do something clever, oh no. Belief in his ideals...To be honest, overall I wasn't particularly impressed with this fight. I mean I just recently read Naruto defeating his inner self with a freaking hug. Obviously it's not the same thing but kinda reminds me of it. I would've liked it better if Shirou's resolve was connected to Rin in some way. Maybe Rin's love for him had given had given him a stronger sense of self worth. Maybe his love for him meant he didn't want to let her down. Something like that.

I mean because promising that you will never regret spending an enternity in effective Hell is kinda BS, especially when your future self tells you otherwise.

But at least they improved upon this somewhat in the anime by giving Shirou scenes where he's confronting his past and inner demons. I know that doesn't really justify his answer but at least it gives him a little bit more credibility, imo. All I remember from the novel Shirou was "RA RA RA DETERMINATION RA RA RA".

Also, it was kinda the opposite for me: You liked Archer's emotions but disliked Shirou's focus, where as I liked Shirou's self reflection scenes the most and considred Archer's angry ramblings repetitive and a little bit nonesense (Like his point about the ideal being hypocrisy).

[Rising Dragon]

Didn't Shirou use all three of his Seals in this anime though?

[GDB]

Hrmm, guess he did. Forgot he used the one to bring Saber to the school and one to stop her from attacking Caster.

So where was the outrage that Caster got 3 seals when she took over Saber?

[Haak]

As far as I recall, he used one on Saber to stop her attacking Rin and Archer just after she was summoned, then only used one again trying to stop her attacking Caster before she got Rule Broken. When did he use one to bring her to school?

[GDB]

When Rider was ZA WARUDO face melting everyone.

[Haak]

Well shit...so Caster got three new command spells just by forming a contract with Saber. Does that mean she got another three when she formed a contract with Archer on top of another three she got for Assassin?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I always suspected the fact that Archer actually got magic circuits compared to other heroes, which possibly gives him the ability to regenerate his prana in this age in the same way that Magi do. The issue Archer was facing was the fact that he has no "anchor", which usually gives Servants the ability to have a physical form. So since Archer cannot maintain his form perfectly anymore, he starts to "leak" his prana. But since he still has enough prana in reserve, he can still cast the RM.

Servants in general have to have magic circuits. Unless you have a good explanation how they use mana. Not everyone makes use of them though, like Caster, who can just tell the world to go do magic things.

Originally Posted by GDB

Kirei used Command Spells on Assassin, yet still got three new ones for Gilgamesh.

What? Kirei didn't gain any Command Spells for Gilgamesh. He had inherited the ones his father left behind. And he got the two back that he lost when Assassin died in FZ.

Originally Posted by Haak

Well shit...so Caster got three new command spells just by forming a contract with Saber. Does that mean she got another three when she formed a contract with Archer on top of another three she got for Assassin?

Caster keeps breaking rules, so her gaining three new Command Spells doesn't say much.

Q: After Caster summoned Assassin (Sasaki Kojirou), was she branded with Command Spells? I ask because I don’t think she ever used a Command Spell on Assassin.

A: She had something similar to a Command Spell. Though, as a fake Master with a fake Servant, it wasn't something as powerful as a true Command Spell. While she may not originally have received any Command Spells, Caster may have skillfully borrowed the power of the Greater Grail to forge herself an imitation.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Servants in general have to have magic circuits. Unless you have a good explanation how they use mana. Not everyone makes use of them though, like Caster, who can just tell the world to go do magic things.

As far as I know, Magic Circuits are rather "modern" and didn't exist in the past, escpacially not in the Age of Gods. They used magic differently.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

As far as I know, Magic Circuits are rather "modern" and didn't exist in the past, escpacially not in the Age of Gods. They used magic differently.

Nowhere is it stated that they didn't exist. For all we know, they were engraved in the soul from the beginning and just weren't needed. It's said that magi like Medea had no need for such things, because the magi in her age bypassed several steps.

If you want to use mana, you need to have circuits. The only explicitly mentioned exception to this is Medea with High Speed Divine Language.

Using your circuits btw also changes your body temperature. That's why Kiritsugu's heat scope was useful to find magi like Kayneth, who hid behind illusions. That's also how Kiritsugu knew Gil was using his Noble Phantasm in episode 5.

[ShadowSamurai365]

I know I'm asking a dumb question, but there's something that I like to clarify with posters of this thread: Do you guys hate heroes, or do you like them?

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

I know I'm asking a dumb question, but there's something that I like to clarify with posters of this thread: Do you guys hate heroes, or do you like them?

Depends.
Is it heroes of old or seigi no mikata?

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Don't you automatically get an affinity of swords if your origin is sword?

Not really. Origins and affinity can have some relation but not neccessary the same. For most magus, their affinity is one or two of the five great elements, but everyone's origin is supposing lay different.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

Depends.
Is it heroes of old or seigi no mikata?

I guess it depends on your preference, for I'm not really sure what preferences should be set; or what I'm trying to set. It's just that (when it comes to this series/show) there'll be some people who'll like heroes (or others who try to become heroes) and will be happy and will try to cheer them on. However, when it comes to Shirou, there'll be those who'll dislike him for trying to become one, which baffles me a bit (since some people act like he can make different decisions).