(L) Magi - Labyrinth of Magic [manga]

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by aohige

That's not what I'm saying for crying out loud.

Then I'm right that we don't have anything to argue about.

Originally Posted by aohige

I'm saying, I don't want Sith-Dumbledore to turn soft and caring and understading and crap.

Do you really think he would? That's magic that no even a magi can do.

Originally Posted by aohige

I want it sooner than "later on", Kou Empire need to advance, Laem needs to clash with Magnostat, and what not relatively soon. Perhaps after the quad-arcs going on right now. There hasn't been an exciting conflict since Balbaad FFS, we're due for one SOON damnit.

Yeah, maybe then we'll get some action. I want some conflict too, although I like Magi when it's an adventure series as much as when it's an action one.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by aohige

But Alibaba is regretting it, and want to take it back.
It's an example of "look, this is bigger than what the protagonists can handle, they can't solve everything. Not yet anyways, and they're not gonna just solve cases like some Detective Conan script and move on. They are going to face failures."

Alibaba is going to regret a whole lot more if Sinbad is going to end up where I think he's going to end up....

As for solving everything. Yeah, even Solomon himself could not solve everything


Oh and you need not worry about Aladdin talking anyone in....he's like Touma in the sense that he beats the shit out of his opponents first

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Then I'm right that we don't have anything to argue about.

I see what happened with your reply. see, I was answering to the red part below, not the blue.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

War isn't going to start so easily. We know Aladdin dislikes war as much as Alibaba does. He's going to try talking Mogamett into reason. If it doesn't work (and most likely won't) he'll probably take Titus (and Marga) with him and go to Laem. I'm pretty sure he won't make any rushed decisions that could start a war.

I was saying, reasoning Mogamett is boring.
We finally have a crazed ruler here, I need to see some blood!

[konart]

Spoiler for 160:

So he is "Aryan race" leader of the Magi. Nice.

[Kafriel]

^ At least his transgression to that kind of mentality is reasonable. Might have loosened a screw or two after the war, too...considering he sees goi as cattle in a most literal fashion.

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Oh and you need not worry about Aladdin talking anyone in....he's like Touma in the sense that he beats the shit out of his opponents first

So he has to falcon punch his way to world peace?

Caught up to the raws, now it's to 1 chapter per week.
So offensive magic didn't exist a couple of decades ago? Their R&D must be rather impressive.

Next chapter we see Palpatine execute Order 66?

[marvelB]

Okay, now I can gladly say that I am FULLY caught up with the weekly chapters, as well!



Anyways, as for my opinion on how the current arc's conflict will be resolved, I'm pretty much with Aohige in thinking that it won't be simple as Aladdin saying "Hey Dumbledore Mogamett, most muggles Goi are actually pretty cool, so stop treating them like cattle, 'kay? ". Frankly, the Balbadd arc alone already taught us that toppling an evil/corrupt ruler doesn't instantly end a conflict. In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we end up getting yet ANOTHER civil war on our hands.....

[RRW]

Dunno, but the Hogwarts is just to perfect. magician get their magic, Goi have very little to complain since they dont have to pay tax and get free stuff.

We may get better quality of live for 5th level, but i doubt they suddenly abolish 5th level. is like destroying entire city and may cause more conflict.

unleash if they find alternative for power source. is like slavery IRL. reason why slavery is abolish is because we found better way to harvest plantation

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Awrya

So he has to falcon punch his way to world peace?

That would be sort of hypocrite from this part, I think. And for what it's worth, I don't think Aladdin is like Touma at all. He has never forced his moral on anyone IIRC. In fact, for all his pacifist talk, he really isn't that much of moralfag.

[RRW]

thought thinking about my point. I wonder if Aladdin decide to sacrifice himself in order to abolish 5th level. since he have unlimited Magoi.

Either way, sooner or later Hogwart probably decide to capture Magi(s) in order to have unlimited POWER! magoi

[Rainrir]

Is it completely unreasonable to see what Mogamett is doing as understandable and in fact relatively foward compared to the rest of the Magi world, considering the fact that the world of Magi is a 1) largely slave owning society (it happens everywhere, except Sindaria...maybe) 2)many slaves are ill treated 3) whole economies are subsisted on slaves in some cases.

What Mogamett is doing is reasonably similiar to other slave societies out in the world of Magi, except the 5th level Goi do get food and medicine. Compare this to when the Fatima the slaver decided to feed the sick Nadja to wolves (hyenas?). Fatima basically said that such treatment is expected of for slaves. I think the Goi are relaltively well off. The 5th level Goi themselves said that the magical power drained from them power magical tools that farm at a far higher efficiency than they could by hand, and everyone gets more food than in the days of the Mustashim Kingdom. There is a relative improvement in living standards. Economically they cannot compete, and the would not produce as much even if they "burnt down their lives" and worked 24/7 to produce.

It is indeed bad that the 2nd generation are being automatically consigned to a fate of being a 5th, then again it really isn't very different from a young child born/caught into slavery in the world of Magi, what are his/her odds of survival to adulthood if they are very young (like Nadja) or very weak (like Marga)? It is quite evident that not all the young die in the 5th level Goi, since there is a sizable youth population. It is just the weak, Magoi-wise, children that generally cannot live to adulthood? There is also a ultra limited form of social mobility for the 5th level Goi, since it is explicitly mentioned that it is possible to leave the 5th by becoming a scholar etc etc etc. I doubt the same can be said for most slaves, unless someone like Alibaba comes along and frees everyone.

Then there is Mogamett own personal experience with mass persecution and his own loss of his daughter. The Mustashim Kingdom basically treated the Magicians as a sub-human race, this situation inevitably leds one to think of the Jewish situation in the West and the Middle East before the creation of modern Israel. Whatever the rights and wrongs of some Israeli's current political stance in eternally keeping the Palestinians from getting statehood (and in some extreme cases desiring to prevent or block equal citizenship for Palestinians in Israel because they see them as a 5th column aka potential traitors) or their militant attitude towards "regional threats", it is clear some Israelis are in fact VERY militant in ensuring the Holocaust never happens again. This mentality is pretty similiar to Mogamett's thinking, isn't it, to prevent the Goi from ever being able to persecute the Magicians ever again.

Then there is the part about the Magicians wanting to "build a better world" compared to the shortsightedness and greed of the Goi. However, I really can't see that point seriously beyond it being hyperbole in appealing to his listener's innate sense of superiority. There really isn't any analogue to that in our real world, beyond perhaps the transhumanists (of which many are scientists). I suppose you can say that the closest I can think of is a kind of technocracy in which the Mogamett is aiming for.

I don't think Mogamett's "brainwashing" is weak, since it appeals to the sense of victimhood and solidarity to a "group" of people. More importantly, his "story" has a basis of truth, it is not some fabricated, mystical past. Those kind of "victimhood" stories have the strongest resonance for the decedents of the "victims" of that story. This sort of justification has been used quite often in real life. Be it a race, a culture, or in Mogamett's own view....a completely different species. Then there is an appeal to the feeling of superiority, I think as far as stories go this one covered all the bases.

This is not to say what he is doing is completely right. However, I don't think he is a Hitler/Stalinesque monster. The Magnoshutatt system is obviously flawed, but I don't see it as worse than what we are already shown. Obviously, the existance of a permanent undercaste is disgusting to our modern sensibilities, however I think this should be evaluated in the context of the world of Magi at large.

TLR: Magomett is basically Magneto (X-men) combined with Tony Stark's Transhuman vision (comic book version) for the Magicians.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by RRW

thought thinking about my point. I wonder if Aladdin decide to sacrifice himself in order to abolish 5th level. since he have unlimited Magoi.

He doesn't really have unlimited magoi though, so it wouldn't work.

Besides Magamett wants the humans mind-broken either way. He said so himself: when humans believe they're powerless, they will inhibit their desire for more power.

So, in other words, as far as Magamett is concerned, humans need to live in shitty conditions so they won't even think about wanting to rule. I personally don't think that makes much sense, but....

Originally Posted by Rainrir

This is not to say what he is doing is completely right. However, I don't think he is a Hitler/Stalinesque monster. The Magnoshutatt system is obviously flawed, but I don't see it as worse than what we are already shown. Obviously, the existance of a permanent undercaste is disgusting to our modern sensibilities, however I think this should be evaluated in the context of the world of Magi at large.

It isn't right at all. It is understandable, but that's a totally different deal. And even though the world of Magi is like that everywhere, the protagonists are still fighting this kind of shit, or getting stronger in order to fight it more effectively. So yeah, no matter the case, Magnoshtatt's system is going down. It won't happen now, but at some point it'll happen, that's for sure.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by RRW

Dunno, but the Hogwarts is just to perfect. magician get their magic, Goi have very little to complain since they dont have to pay tax and get free stuff.

We may get better quality of live for 5th level, but i doubt they suddenly abolish 5th level. is like destroying entire city and may cause more conflict.

Well yeah, but there's also kind of that problem where all the Goi have to put up with having sick, frail bodies in exchange for the freedom to live as slovenly as they want. I mean, kids born down there even have shortened lifespans, for cryin' out loud! So even if the people down there are (mostly) satisfied with their way of life, they'll probably end up dying out entirely after a few generations (that is, unless Magnostat becomes somewhat more like Sindria and starts inviting more foreign Goi to live in that country, even if it means most of them will be living in the 5th level).


I dunno, somehow I'm reminded of Wall-E where we're shown that after migrating from a ruined earth, humanity lives on comfortably in space, but.... their bodies deteriorated and they all became fat and lazy several generations later. And if anything, Dumblemort is kinda like that evil supercomputer that wants to KEEP them lazy and weak forever. But then, Aladdin will sneak a plant from the outside world into level 5 to prove to those poor souls that the outside world is inhabitable again, and that those mean ol' corrupt magicians and Goi royals have no right to treat them like trash, and so they'll march out and engage in a bloody civil war just for the right to live like actual decent human beings instead of like pigs.....



....Sorry 'bout that, I just rambled on there. But I do agree that an alternative energy source should be found for those magical tools rather than literally sucking the lives out of a bunch of impoverished people.....

[Rainrir]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It isn't right at all. It is understandable, but that's a totally different deal. And even though the world of Magi is like that everywhere, the protagonists are still fighting this kind of shit, or getting stronger in order to fight it more effectively. So yeah, no matter the case, Magnoshtatt's system is going down. It won't happen now, but at some point it'll happen, that's for sure.

When I say "right", I don't mean 100% morally right. More like the Magnoshtatt's system is probably more progresive than what the majority of the (shown) Magi world is doing. It is arguably more humane compared to the cattle slavery (though this system is only just a little more so). Obviously, since the protagonists (though mostly Aladdin) have modern sensibilities, it is inevitable they will try to fight this. I suspect Titus have more personal reasons (because he identifies strongly with Marga....or reasons still unknown but probably related to his upbringing/eventual fate) for wanting to fight the system compared to Aladdin (who basically loves everyone and cannot tolerate suffering).

The real question is, what next after removing the Magnoshtatt system? The drop in food productivity will most likely result in famine, and the persecution of the magicians would resume...unless there is some kind of arbiter to prevent that from happening? I don't know how Aladdin will resolve this without the might of another nation behind him.

[Kafriel]

I see someone caught up with the latest chapters ;P

IMO the problem is not so much the concept, but the execution of this project:

a) Goi are drained 24/7 without rest, which is detrimental to the entire system. Imagine how many more they would be with a few hours of proper recovery. Their number is ridiculously huge, so a time management program could have been enforced to provide the base load as well as peak hour demand without excess strain on them.

b) The goi are seen as animals, thus have no rights. That's not really healthy for the mages' relationship with them, even if they have accepted their fate as human batteries. Given a proper place in society, they just might have had a chance to experience true happiness.

c) Like it or not, they are the core of Magnostat. If they decide that children shouldn't be born in such an environment and get suicidal, the whole city's done for.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Well yeah, but there's also kind of that problem where all the Goi have to put up with having sick, frail bodies in exchange for the freedom to live as slovenly as they want. I mean, kids born down there even have shortened lifespans, for cryin' out loud! So even if the people down there are (mostly) satisfied with their way of life, they'll probably end up dying out entirely after a few generations (that is, unless Magnostat becomes somewhat more like Sindria and starts inviting more foreign Goi to live in that country, even if it means most of them will be living in the 5th level).

Finding replacement is kinda easy, Slave, Criminal, people that treated poorly from other country. worst case scenario is that they decide to capture other country to have more supply which probably will happend

Originally Posted by Kafriel

b) The goi are seen as animals, thus have no rights. That's not really healthy for the mages' relationship with them, even if they have accepted their fate as human batteries. Given a proper place in society, they just might have had a chance to experience true happiness.
.

just to point out that not every Goi in Hogwarts treated like this. some of them living in 4th level and have standard nice life. 5th level is just for those who cannot pay tax AKA poor people

[aohige]

If Dumberdork wasn't a racist, yes, this system can work.
Basically you'd treat magoi-supplying as a job to the masses.
As a form of job, it's pretty awesome. Tax paying NEETs!

The problem with Dumberdork is he's confining the populace to this as a concentration camp out of his bias and hatred.

[Rainrir]

Originally Posted by aohige

If Dunbledork wasn't a racist, yes, this system can work.
Basically you'd treat magoi-supplying as a job to the masses.
As a form of job, it's pretty awesome. Tax paying NEETs!

The problem with Dumberdork is he's confining the populace to this as a concentration camp out of his bias and hatred.

If he didn't feel the needs of the Magicians triumph the needs of the Goi, he would never have started this system in the first place. The system core assumption is that the 5th level Goi are only good for certain things only, otherwise the system cannot answer its own internal logical inconsistencies.

Plus, I think he has enough reason to hate the Goi anyway, considering his expeirences. Not that it makes his hate "right", but it isn't like something brainshatteringly stupid either.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by RRW

Finding replacement is kinda easy, Slave, Criminal, people that treated poorly from other country. worst case scenario is that they decide to capture other country to have more supply which probably will happend

Yeah, this is kind of what I see happening, myself. What comes to my mind here is Dumbledore's little chat with that one Kou prince (forgot his name right now, sorry). He wouldn't yield to the empire's demands since they're made of Goi themselves, and right now this flashback is more or less proving that his hatred for the muggles is just too powerful for him to consider making peaceful alliances with other countries. Most likely he'd just have his army of Death Eaters mages invade other countries and round up the peasants like the sheep he considers them to be. Of course, that would also make him the very type of tyrant he rebelled against in the past, but hey, isn't it kinda standard for dictators to become just as, if not MORE ruthless than the last Great Leader they themselves toppled?

[Rainrir]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Yeah, this is kind of what I see happening, myself. What comes to my mind here is Dumbledore's little chat with that one Kou prince (forgot his name right now, sorry). He wouldn't yield to the empire's demands since they're made of Goi themselves, and right now this flashback is more or less proving that his hatred for the muggles is just too powerful for him to consider making peaceful alliances with other countries. Most likely he'd just have his army of Death Eaters mages invade other countries and round up the peasants like the sheep he considers them to be. Of course, that would also make him the very type of tyrant he rebelled against in the past, but hey, isn't it kinda standard for dictators to become just as, if not MORE ruthless than the last Great Leader they themselves toppled?

I do not think he is under any illusion that he thinks he is treating the Goi any better than his Goi masters treated him then. His main goal is to advance the cause of the Magicians above everyone else's interests. Compared to other "Great Leaders" in history, I reckon Mogamett is closest to...Genghis Khan. As in, if you are Mongolian back then, Genghis Khan is a leader who gives endlessly and generously to his people. Woe be upon you if you are not Mongolian (or in Mogamett's case, Magician)...