AnimeSuki Forums

maximilianjenus · 2012-07-30, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by black knight iust

in a 2-3 man team a sniper can hit them without getting ripped apart two sniper guards one cqc one ranged it works great in many games
take into effect 70+ % accuracy means the pilot will be aware of thier surroundings
im not sure if destroyers can climb up steep rocks easly
beam class arnt that tough so one shot is all thats needed
graplers dont have that heavy armor so it would be good to use something with more stopping power like a shot gun and blade which ive seen cut through them like a knife through butter and a frag granade meant for tfs throughn to the underbelly of destroyers would be effective to bad i have yet to see tfs with anything other than rifles and blades and maby heavy weponry
wonder how the jehuty from (Z.O.E) would fair seeing as it has a invinceable shield and all

That's a diferent universe, in the muvluv universe 2-5 tsf are not enough to protect a sniper, we got a glimpse of that in ep02.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Except they have no choice but to send girls to the meat grinder and they do that on a regular basis you just need to watch EP02 to realize that. Seeing as how a pilot on average doesn't last more than 8 minutes they can hardly say that their strategy is really working. They should rather focus on maximizing the general survivability rather than improve the effectiveness of the few that survive.

Also I don't agree that 10 veterans are more effective than 100 greenhorns. It may work in fictions when heroes are overglorified but in reality there isn't any "skill" that can turn the tides on a 1 vs 10 ratio against you.
The only way to win in numerical inferiority is by using strategies that prevents the enemy from damaging you or that minimize their effectiveness. And you need to minimize your losses as much as possible.

There is one quote from starship troopers that can apply quite well to Muv Luv: "Even if we killed 100 of them for every soldier that we lose, that'd still be a net gain for the insects".

ep02 was the lost of kyoto, apparently because the japanese underestimated the numbers of the beta, that does not seem to be something that happens regularly (the lose of a capital) otherwise the beta would already have won the war.

in teh muvluv universe it seems like one veteran can easily top 10 rookies, just take a look at the yui fight, she is a veteran who took out 4 enemy tsfs with ease.

DezoPenguin · 2012-07-30, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu

What I'm not understanding though is WHY she had to take this approach? Yuuya definitely has a cocky streak about him, but he's definitely not lazy, and WANTS to be the best.

I could understand if he had to be pushed, but he legitimately seems to want to be the best he can be naturally, so why use the intimidation method for someone who's already pretty strong willed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by black knight iust

she might already know about his issues with jp

Oh, she knows about them. She probably doesn't know what those issues are, but their interactions with each other make it darned plain that he has issues with the Japanese and/or the Japanese way of doing things. And don't forget that they've been pushing at each other for quite some time over this (there's a line in there about how many hours Yuuya has in the Fubuki, so there's been a timeskip between Eps. 4 and 5), so Yui's probably justified in thinking it's going to take something more dramatic (or at least something that more directly prods the ego) to get him to achieve that magical state of oneness between man and machine {/sarcasm}.

maximilianjenus · 2012-07-30, 16:58

the previous talk about snipers make me wonder why humans have not used/created an unmanned craft that flies just above the swarm, but still not high enough to be attacked by lasers and functions pretty much like a sniper rifle taking off lasers.

grylsyjaeger · 2012-07-30, 17:06

Quite enjoyed that episode.

Laughed quite had at the comment for Yuuya to ride Yui. XD

encia · 2012-07-30, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

e) the tsf yui and her class used when tehy were slaughtered were american ones, the ones that are easy to use, so you can see how useful is using unexperienced pilots on easy to pilot tsfs.

Spoiler for MLA:

The F15 based TSFs seem Ok, but a single KE impact caused the pilots to be KO'ed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grylsyjaeger

Quite enjoyed that episode.

Laughed quite had at the comment for Yuuya to ride Yui. XD

EP06's preview statements indicates Yui to ride Yuuya...

Keroko · 2012-07-30, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

e) the tsf yui and her class used when tehy were slaughtered were american ones, the ones that are easy to use, so you can see how useful is using unexperienced pilots on easy to pilot tsfs.

And putting these unexperienced pilots in even harder to pilot TSF's is somehow better? Yui even said this episode that the only reason Yuuya is adapting so fast is because he is an ace pilot. Learning curve for the new cadets goes up while the time they have to learn doesn't. That's a recipe for disaster waiting to happen.

Jan-Poo · 2012-07-30, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

ep02 was the lost of kyoto, apparently because the japanese underestimated the numbers of the beta, that does not seem to be something that happens regularly (the lose of a capital) otherwise the beta would already have won the war.

If it was said that the average time a pilot lasts in his first fight is 8 minutes it means that this happens regularly. Whenever they send new recruits to the front they know that most of them are just going to the meatgrinder. 8 minutes on average means that half of them die even faster.

No matter how you look at it, they are definitely not relying on Ace fighters alone for their armies, else they wouldn't die that fast and so often.
They simply cannot afford that, it is unreasonable to think that you can have enough Ace pilots to fight against an already overwhelming number of BETA.
In extreme situations such as in the battle of Kyoto even soldiers that aren't fully trained get deployed, and you can imagine that from that day it became the norm in Japan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

in teh muvluv universe it seems like one veteran can easily top 10 rookies, just take a look at the yui fight, she is a veteran who took out 4 enemy tsfs with ease.

It's more correct to say that in the Muv Luv universe the Takemikazuchi are nearly invincible. See what it did in EP2.

potchip · 2012-07-30, 19:55

heh, feel as if the discussion should be moved to the military tactics thread? Though I agree mostly with Jan-Poo - I've long learnt to just ignore the inconsistencies in the setting. Like someone said earlier, Muv-Luv tries to be gritty/real/in-depth but may probably be just a standard mecha show with a bit more shock/gore/hot blood.

The explanations offered by more seasoned fans unfortunately do sound like patch-work to me. It's like a badly designed real time strategy game where the whole game hinges on a few uber units to neutralise each other whilst all the other units are not very useful. The laser class is the uber unit from the BETA side that supposedly neutralises most of the human tactics. On the human-side, I'd love to believe TSF is the uber unit unfortunately it just not portrayed that way, hence the disconnect on continue to use something that's bad, or something that could be useful, but in a very non-effectual manner.

On the episode, the mecha fight is quite luckluster and doesn't really show the difference between Yui and the rest. It's just a random chop and plot says Tarissa goes down. The final fight looks more like a ceremonial kendo parry session than a real fight (or maybe that's the Yui's intention?).

maximilianjenus · 2012-07-30, 19:57

the average was never said to be the only the japanese average, so that does not really support your point, fi anything we can assume thatit is the world wide average.

DoomRavager · 2012-07-30, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If it was said that the average time a pilot lasts in his first fight is 8 minutes it means that this happens regularly. Whenever they send new recruits to the front they know that most of them are just going to the meatgrinder. 8 minutes on average means that half of them die even faster.

Honestly, the 8 minute average survival time almost certainly only really applies to the first ever TSFs from 1974 being driven by repurposed aircraft pilots. Since they moved to training surface fighter pilots from scratch and improved even the F-4s with modern technological advances, presumably the actual average newbie survival time is considerably better.

With that said, Episode 2's cadets hadn't finished their training yet, so, yeah, meatgrinder.

Jan-Poo · 2012-07-30, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

the average was never said to be the only the japanese average, so that does not really support your point, fi anything we can assume thatit is the world wide average.

And there's absolutely nothing that says that the Japanese average is any different, and if we've only seen Japanese saying that there must be a reason. At any rate the fact that they send teen girls into battle should be enough of a proof.

black knight iust · 2012-07-30, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Oh, she knows about them. She probably doesn't know what those issues are, but their interactions with each other make it darned plain that he has issues with the Japanese and/or the Japanese way of doing things. And don't forget that they've been pushing at each other for quite some time over this (there's a line in there about how many hours Yuuya has in the Fubuki, so there's been a timeskip between Eps. 4 and 5), so Yui's probably justified in thinking it's going to take something more dramatic (or at least something that more directly prods the ego) to get him to achieve that magical state of oneness between man and machine {/sarcasm}.

they do say that u really dont know someone till u fight them

Quote:

That's a diferent universe, in the muvluv universe 2-5 tsf are not enough to protect a sniper, we got a glimpse of that in ep02.

yeah but they were inexperianced chieldren in thier first fight so they would be nervious and can get an adrenalen high so thats not really fair + terrain has a big part in battle

NoemiChan · 2012-07-30, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by black knight iust

yeah but they were inexperianced chieldren in thier first fight so they would be nervious and can get an adrenalen high so thats not really fair + terrain has a big part in battle

Just remembered snipers in counter strike... I hate them...

black knight iust · 2012-07-30, 21:03

most likly thier undermaned at the time to send in kids

GenjiChan@ try call of duty games basicly one shot then halo the only sniper rifle that ive used where i can still move and get head shots and hit some one moving at max spead but slowly falling to your death sucks no way to avod getting shot

NoemiChan · 2012-07-30, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by black knight iust

most likly thier undermaned at the time to send in kids

....more of young pretty girls....

black knight iust · 2012-07-30, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

....more of young pretty girls....

some with breasts some with out and others just crazy
since when do u send a mentaly unstable girl into battle
r... r u posting in more than one thread at a time gen
oh i just got a duplicate tab

Von Himmel · 2012-07-31, 00:45

I wonder how much the repair cost would that be after that little skirmish. Tarisa's TSF looks pretty screwed, but the others seem fine

Sinestra · 2012-07-31, 07:47

Its interesting that Yui has chosen to use the opposite of positive reinforcement to push Yuuya to preform at an even higher level. I honestly though that he was not progressing that well but was shocked when Yui said she was surprised at how fast he was learning to pilot this difficult machine. I guess she feels hammering him at him will get faster results however, that's obviously not true because in the shower she clearly stated it was not enough. H

I however, think this animosity between the two is actually having a dual effect. Its make Yuuya question himself but its also keeping the two from working as a team to make him a better pilot. But one can see that as much as they claim to hate each other they are both being drawn towards one another. Yui little exercise taught Yuuya a valuable lesson and technically he did not win, she could have landed a death blow at anytime. The purpose was not defeat but a learning experience.

I look forward to more interactions between the two and also some combat with the BETA soon hopefully.

black knight iust · 2012-07-31, 15:03

the takemicazuti can duel wiled blades right?
wonder what would happen if they switched then fought again
@Destined_Fate such a conviniont accedent

vic-vic · 2012-07-31, 15:31

Well, Yuuya seems to adapt very fast to any conditions of TSF control, and as it was stated by YUi herself he has a talent. So I don't think that mastering a sword combat will take a long time for him. He's a Top Gun for a very good reason.

View Poll Results: Muv-Luv - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10	11	22.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent	12	24.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good	19	38.00%
7 out of 10 : Good	3	6.00%
6 out of 10 : Average	3	6.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	1	2.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor	1	2.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad	0	0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad	0	0%
1 out of 10 : Painful	0	0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

2012-07-30, 17:06	Link #104
grylsyjaeger Onani Master Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: The girl's bathroom Age: 34	Quite enjoyed that episode. Laughed quite had at the comment for Yuuya to ride Yui. XD __________________ "It doesn't mean much, we never had a chance."

2012-07-30, 21:03	Link #114
black knight iust spirit 1 IT Support Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: gloucester city nj Age: 31	most likly thier undermaned at the time to send in kids GenjiChan@ try call of duty games basicly one shot then halo the only sniper rifle that ive used where i can still move and get head shots and hit some one moving at max spead but slowly falling to your death sucks no way to avod getting shot __________________ J.F.F rpg board http://dxdrpg.freeforums.org/index.php

2012-07-31, 00:45	Link #117
Von Himmel エーレンフェストの聖女 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Dollars	I wonder how much the repair cost would that be after that little skirmish. Tarisa's TSF looks pretty screwed, but the others seem fine __________________ 「何かが起こっても、わたくしが守ります」

2012-07-31, 07:47	Link #118
Sinestra ション (^^) IT Support Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Freedom Guard Ship Amaterasu	Its interesting that Yui has chosen to use the opposite of positive reinforcement to push Yuuya to preform at an even higher level. I honestly though that he was not progressing that well but was shocked when Yui said she was surprised at how fast he was learning to pilot this difficult machine. I guess she feels hammering him at him will get faster results however, that's obviously not true because in the shower she clearly stated it was not enough. H I however, think this animosity between the two is actually having a dual effect. Its make Yuuya question himself but its also keeping the two from working as a team to make him a better pilot. But one can see that as much as they claim to hate each other they are both being drawn towards one another. Yui little exercise taught Yuuya a valuable lesson and technically he did not win, she could have landed a death blow at anytime. The purpose was not defeat but a learning experience. I look forward to more interactions between the two and also some combat with the BETA soon hopefully. __________________

2012-07-30, 16:58	Link #103
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	the previous talk about snipers make me wonder why humans have not used/created an unmanned craft that flies just above the swarm, but still not high enough to be attacked by lasers and functions pretty much like a sniper rifle taking off lasers.

2012-07-30, 19:55	Link #108
potchip Senior Member Join Date: May 2007	heh, feel as if the discussion should be moved to the military tactics thread? Though I agree mostly with Jan-Poo - I've long learnt to just ignore the inconsistencies in the setting. Like someone said earlier, Muv-Luv tries to be gritty/real/in-depth but may probably be just a standard mecha show with a bit more shock/gore/hot blood. The explanations offered by more seasoned fans unfortunately do sound like patch-work to me. It's like a badly designed real time strategy game where the whole game hinges on a few uber units to neutralise each other whilst all the other units are not very useful. The laser class is the uber unit from the BETA side that supposedly neutralises most of the human tactics. On the human-side, I'd love to believe TSF is the uber unit unfortunately it just not portrayed that way, hence the disconnect on continue to use something that's bad, or something that could be useful, but in a very non-effectual manner. On the episode, the mecha fight is quite luckluster and doesn't really show the difference between Yui and the rest. It's just a random chop and plot says Tarissa goes down. The final fight looks more like a ceremonial kendo parry session than a real fight (or maybe that's the Yui's intention?).

2012-07-30, 19:57	Link #109
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	the average was never said to be the only the japanese average, so that does not really support your point, fi anything we can assume thatit is the world wide average.

2012-07-31, 15:03	Link #119
black knight iust spirit 1 IT Support Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: gloucester city nj Age: 31	the takemicazuti can duel wiled blades right? wonder what would happen if they switched then fought again @Destined_Fate such a conviniont accedent __________________ J.F.F rpg board http://dxdrpg.freeforums.org/index.php Last edited by black knight iust; 2012-07-31 at 15:14.

2012-07-31, 15:31	Link #120
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 37	Well, Yuuya seems to adapt very fast to any conditions of TSF control, and as it was stated by YUi herself he has a talent. So I don't think that mastering a sword combat will take a long time for him. He's a Top Gun for a very good reason.