[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The gameboard is the real world?

If we are arguing that the events were the work of humans, then yes, everything that happens should agree with the rules of the real world. Detective's authority only has meaning to people who are aware of the game, and should be a useless concept for justifying real-world events.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure there was no such red truth in episode 5 indicating that Battler was the detective for the first four games. If I missed one, let me know where it was.

But I don't really have a problem with assuming he was the detective for games 2-4. The reason I'm hesitant to assume that for episode 1 is that, when the game started, Beatrice had no "opponent" for her "game." In that case, what is the purpose of a "detective" if there are no outside observers, and how can we be so sure it was Battler if Beatrice had not challenged anyone yet?

Certainly there are signs that the game exists for Battler's sake, somehow, so it's not impossible that everything was planned ahead from the start, and the episode 1 tea party was just an act. But regardless of that I don't think I should dismiss the possibility that someone else was the detective (there is precedent for this, after all), or that the concept of a "detective" was only first used in episode 2.

Actually, never mind. I just found what you were talking about.

Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Until now, you have been the detective! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective viewpoint?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of view!!


That's a bit different from what you said. While it does suggest that Battler has never not been the detective, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that episode 1 had no detective (or that there was more than one.)

[y2kmisty2000]

lol, has anyone seen this yet, a dubbed version of EP5 intro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Axi2ScD5I

[rogerpepitone]

Regarding how red text was inapplicable at the trial:

Some metaworld events are a proxy for gameboard events. Red text, or blue text not countered by red text, if introduced in accordance with the Knox rules, becomes binding on the people, especially in such a proxy situation.

Originally Posted by Beatrice in episode 2

I'll tell Rosa that there are only five master keys!!

but Rosa ignored it. If Battler had been able to produce a gameboard-level clue that supported the claim, Rosa would have had to accept the red text.

In Episode 3, Eva had been uncertain whether or not she was the culprit. The combination of physical evidence (cigarette) and meta-Battler's blue text blocked piece-Battler or Eva from acting on any beliefs contrary to the Eva-culprit hypothesis; meta-Battler's actions forced piece-Battler from to accuse Eva, and forbid Eva from doubting her own guilt (even to Eva, years later).

In episode 5, Natsuhi's metaworld trial directly corresponded to a trial in the parlor. Piece-Battler's unblocked blue claims of a living Kinzo blocked Natsuhi from claiming "Kinzo is dead". Bern's red text, supported by piece-Erika's claims, became binding on everyone in the parlor.

Also, piece-Erika knew she was involved in a hoax to force Natsuhi to admit she knew that Kinzo was dead and reveal the location of the body. meta-Erika believed piece-Erika was being completely truthful. (Piece-Erikas precautions amounted to locking down the actions of everyone but Natsuhi while leaving Natsuhi free. Having Eva seal Natsuhi's door would have been a logical action, considering that Eva was suspicious, and would have largely eliminated Natsuhi as a suspect. Then again, Eva could have made the seal and immediately broken it. Also note piece-Erika's repeated "Where is Kinzo?" Meta-Erika, OTOH, was shocked when the problems with piece-Erika's conclusions were revealed, which wouldn't have happened if she'd known that piece-Erika was lying.

[Kirroha]

I have a ask a question - since Battler's become the Endless Sorcerer, why can't he just rebut Erika with Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit? I was so confused in Ep5. I didn't know the red needed proof at all, as Beato has never actually bothered using it with proof. It seemed more like a premise description to me, so I really don't know how it became different in Ep5.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kirroha

I have a ask a question - since Battler's become the Endless Sorcerer, why can't he just rebut Erika with Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit? I was so confused in Ep5. I didn't know the red needed proof at all, as Beato has never actually bothered using it with proof. It seemed more like a premise description to me, so I really don't know how it became different in Ep5.

If the detective side uses red they need proof of it happening. That's why it didn't work. Erika got Bern, a witch, to repeat all her red so it didn't apply to her in a way

[k//eternal]

It would probably have worked after he became the Endless Sorc (who in addition to being a "witch" is also arguing for the witch side), which is what Kirroha is asking about.

[maximilianjenus]

He did something similar to that with the gold anyway.

But first, to get this out of my systemFurudo Erika dies in all games prior to this one, she drowns while falling off the boat, only a miracle can save her from that.

Too bad that my theory on the kakera system means that is very likely that she will continue surviving now, just like what happens with the new worlds opened in rei.

[Kirroha]

EP5 utterly confused me. But I still trust Ryuukishi to explain everything in due time. After all, this was the person who created Higurashi, and while at EP5 or 6 of Higurashi it was confusing too, though less since Higurashi had direct answer arcs.

[Knicknevin]

Well, I said I'd go into a little more depth with the line of thought regarding Eva and Hideyoshi in Episode 1. And faked deaths, Battlers perspective etc.

Gonna spoiler it because it's huge.

Spoiler for Words words words:

In Episode 5, Ronove made this suggestion: It may be true that all corpses, no matter whose, would not lead to a mistaken autopsy, but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse. Like, for example, a living person. Take the first twilight of Ep 1. It's perfectly possible that at least one person in that group was faking their death, and possibly the entire group. I'll admit however, that Shannon is the only likely fake- Battler made it into the shed and got a pretty good look at the damage to everyone but Shannon. He could have been fooled, but his descriptions of the damage to the faces is pretty gruesome. Still, his status as the detective doesn't prevent him from being fooled by someone faking their death.

Still, this also then leaves open the possibility of Eva and Hideyoshi faking their own deaths.

Originally Posted by TeeHee

I have a new blue truth, and I need help evaluating it. It has nothing to do with Shannon. And sorry if someone else came up with this first.

Ready?

Spoiler for Blue truth:

It seems possible that Rudolf the Womanizer had encountered Beatrice - who bore a SON. And if he did, he really needed to keep his mouth shut.

(I will hereafter refer to this SON in capital letters.)

"This is the world of 1967."
1986 - 1967 = 19

At the time, Rosa, the youngest in the family, was 15 if I recall. I bet that Rudolf was well older than that... old enough to get into trouble like that.

This SON, who was initially given to Natsuhi, would have been guaranteed to inherit the family's name. She rejected him, so the BOY's death was staged - though he was kept alive in secret.

Then the actual Beatrice dies in an accident.

Kinzo, who realized that his most valued GRANDSON needed a family, got word that Rudolf womanized Asumu. They were forced into marriage... but their child actually died in a miscarriage (as did Kyrie's son/daughter, coincidentally). Kinzo secretly made them accept his GRANDSON and name him Battler, the original name they actually intended for their actual son.

Kinzo's dying wish, for whatever reason, is for his favorite GRANDSON (Battler) to receive the Gold, but only if he passes the trial by fire.

Anyways, this seems possible, but I need to evaluate this some more.

With regards to your blue TeeHee, it certainly is a valid theory. But it seems like it's adding an unneeded level of complexity to solve a relatively easy riddle- It's alot simpler to assume that the one who gave birth and the one who miscarried between Kyrie and Asumu were merely reversed. Kinzo wasn't a billionaire for nothing. He probably saw a potential threat with Rudolph marrying a Sumadera and pulled some strings to get Kyrie's baby 'miscarried' and taken away.

If Kyrie ever found out about it, like for example when she had her contacts digging up dirt on the main family, I'd certainly understand why Rudolph thought his life might be in danger. That might also explain the grudge against Natsuhi, since I doubt Kyrie would forgive killing an unwanted child after having her own taken from her. Also note that when Rudolph married Kyrie there wasn't a convenient excuse to stop them- worse, Kyrie was pregnant again. Kinzo may have been just about beyond caring anyway.





In other thoughts... I had an idea regarding the disaster that seems to be killing everyone at the end of the game. It might be something like a natural gas explosion, or volcanic gasses escaping from underground (oh ho, wouldn't that be ironic). I point this out because there is a common trend in 3 of the first 4 games- Kinzo gets tossed in the boiler. This creates a terrible stench and lasts until the end of the game. Maybe it's masking the smell of the gas? Might explain why Rosa knew something terrible was about to happen and tried to flee in Episode 2- Kinzo wasn't burned in that Ep.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Also, piece-Erika knew she was involved in a hoax to force Natsuhi to admit she knew that Kinzo was dead and reveal the location of the body. meta-Erika believed piece-Erika was being completely truthful. (Piece-Erikas precautions amounted to locking down the actions of everyone but Natsuhi while leaving Natsuhi free. Having Eva seal Natsuhi's door would have been a logical action, considering that Eva was suspicious, and would have largely eliminated Natsuhi as a suspect. Then again, Eva could have made the seal and immediately broken it. Also note piece-Erika's repeated "Where is Kinzo?" Meta-Erika, OTOH, was shocked when the problems with piece-Erika's conclusions were revealed, which wouldn't have happened if she'd known that piece-Erika was lying.

I'd point out here that Erika was in the guest house all night. Eva was the one to set the seals in the mansion, and the one to put the idea of 'a possible crime' and 'sealing the doors' into Erika's head. I suspect that while this was indeed a scheme to make Kinzo's door open and reveal what lay inside, most of the family were under the impression that it was just a game being played for Erika's sake. It doesn't make any sense for Krauss to go along with an act like this if the goal was to corner Natsuhi. And given the state of his room, I think Krauss was playing along until the killer came and took him from his bedroom.

I'm not certain who was the one that came up with the plan- Eva, Kyrie or Battler. Battler can't be the culprit, but he could have come up with the 'crime drama' idea and then the killer chimed in and subverted it. Or Eva or Kyrie came up with the plan themselves: To thank Erika for finding the gold by entertaining her with a mystery to solve. Or at least that's what they said it was for. Everyone (except Natsuhi and Erika, and maybe the servants in the guest house) was in on the plan, and Rosa was sent back to the guest house with some makeup and such to explain things to the cousins and set up the room.

I have trouble believing that the purpose of the plan was to make Natsuhi reveal Kinzo's whereabouts or death. If it were, why did everyone give up so easily when Battler suggested Kinzo merely jumped out the window when Natsuhi wasn't looking? The planner's goal wasn't to reveal Kinzo's death, but rather make Natsuhi confess to the murder 19 years ago.



From the other thread you referenced Arkwright:

Originally Posted by Arkwright

Spoiler for Episode 2:

If the Kanon who came back to life and killed Nanjo and Kumasawa was not actually a magical goat man, then what was the significance of Shannon running to the boiler room to grab a spider web?

The significance of this scene actually comes in the followup. From the the scene following that one- Someone (I forget who, probably Battler or Rosa) had just asked what possessed Shannon to go grab a spider web, and she's trying to explain:

"In the past, I happened to hear it from Kumasawa-san. ... A long time ago, evil spirits lived in Rokkenjima and they, um, feared spider webs. And they say there was a legend where people treasured spider webs as amulets. And, um... right at that moment, I, I think I was a bit confused..."

Then Genji chimes in: ".... When it came to those old stories, Kumasawa was very knowledgeable."

... Since 'Virgilia' is teaching magic to 'Beatrice', this may have been a (yet another) hint that Shannon is the 'Beatrice' that was being taught by 'Virgilia' (Kumasawa).

The scene itself is moot- Nanjo and Kumasawa needed to be able to move on their own for a while, so they faked their deaths with Genji, Shannon, and (reluctantly) Gohda helping them. The whole deal with 'Kanon' appearing and attacking them until Shannon drove it off with a spider web was just a crazy story they came up with. Another letter was left to account for how the bodies disappeared. The killer, however, caught Nanjo and Kumasawa off guard after they left the servants room.

[pmoys]

Spoiler for ???? - ep 5:

I'm very curious... as to the meanings of Dlanor's all capitalized words. I dismissed it at first, assuming it was just a speaking style, but since her father is the man who wrote the "rules" for mystery genre reasoning... I think she may be dropping Battler clues... since he claims to be the mystery side. I think I will go round up those words in a list later.

Those are just my suspicions, as im in the ???? reading them down and seeing things like "force doubts truth"... and wondering...

[bigemperor]

What is your opinion about the modificaction made to the knox rules by r7?


Umineko Knox rule 2


Original knox rule 2
2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.



Umineko knox rule 9


Original knox rule 9
9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.

[Kazuki_Kun]

After finishing Episode 5, all I can say is my poor, poor Natsuhi-oba san. :'(

I actually teared up when Failkastel was so cruel as to bring Natsuhi's last shred of pride down like that. And the whole sexual intimacy with Kinzo? Natsuhi is far too dignified and refined!

And yes, if you can't tell, Natsuhi is my favorite character.

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by bigemperor

What is your opinion about the modificaction made to the knox rules by r7?

I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

R7's point is simply that you should assume that he really did follow the rules of a traditional mystery, fantastic distractions included.

[k//eternal]

Also, some of the changes were necessary so that it wouldn't be an instant game over for the witch side. Imagine if the original #2 could be used as red text...

[Matrim]

I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by pmoys

Spoiler for ???? - ep 5:

I'm very curious... as to the meanings of Dlanor's all capitalized words. I dismissed it at first, assuming it was just a speaking style, but since her father is the man who wrote the "rules" for mystery genre reasoning... I think she may be dropping Battler clues... since he claims to be the mystery side. I think I will go round up those words in a list later.

Those are just my suspicions, as im in the ???? reading them down and seeing things like "force doubts truth"... and wondering...

I think Klash answered this a few pages ago, but the capitalized words are ones that she put emphasis on in Japanese by using "desu" after them. It's her speech pattern, but it's possible some of those words are something we should be paying attention to.

Originally Posted by Matrim

I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.

Maybe if there's a miracle involved ...

[k//eternal]

It's not "desu", but the use of katakana. She ends sentences with them. (However, since she does end most of her sentences with "desu", it's often what turns to katakana.)

If Chiru was animated, the effect would be completely lost.

[June 1983]

Ah, I understand. Sorry!

Yeah, I have a hard time imagining how it would come out vocally ...

[Kamar]

If I had to guess, I'd say the idea was to evoke the English word "Death"....so you'd just have the VA pronounce their "desu" a little closer to "death"?

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.

Considering that the cousins "use swimsuits" while going to the beach, not in the days covered by the novel because of the typhoon, but the climate in rokkenjima must be pretty nice, sans storms; it's not weird for someone to be wearing a swimsuit while on a pleasure trip on the sea.

Also, something that interests me is what would have happened with erika's seals should natsuhi not be the one who broke them, but rather, any otehr adult/servant/child. Were they really setup specially for natsuhi ? or were they just general seals that would have caughtthe most suspicious person regardless of that being natsuhi or not ?