2013-01-07, 05:34 | Link #31561 | |||||||
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"Even if we include you" in the person count, this is explicitly stated, "there are only 17" is basically what tells us that, without her, there are 16 = Shkanon. If you say that she doesn't count to begin with, then this red holds no significance whatsoever. Yes, I see what you mean (possibly at least). Erika might've not been in the fifth game, instead we had Kanon (and in the 6th we had Erika and not Kanon) as humans (so, because of Erika we still have 17, however it's not necessary that she is the 17th). Though her existence is implied by some red (she does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them) ... similiar to how the chapel doors in EP2 are never checked or the infamous knock there is no red stating "Erika is a human on Rokkenjima right now". So, basically Erika would have Kanon's role of nonexistence in EP5. Another way to look at it, though I'm not sure (EP5 is my weak point) how important Erika is to keep the red statements together for that episode. ... all this is nice and all, but if Erika wasn't there to begin with, we arguably don't even need to solve the issue of all those parlor-scenes. "There is no detective in EP5" is another theory that tries to deal with Ryukishi's mistake, forgot about it though. Just be aware that her not couting because "she was dead" is also how Rosatrice explains this red. Quote:
Though it bears the question why she'd produce a Beatrice-letter later just to have a reason to throw him out later. Just one of many... Quote:
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Problem is, because he had to fix this, it's already a shackle for the trustworthyness of the theory itself. I mean, anyone can create any number of theories that goings along with the red as soon as we add multiple humans, right? Quote:
Though Gohda screwing up is always amusing. EP8 provided the hint for your idea. Quote:
Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-07 at 06:02. |
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2013-01-07, 08:41 | Link #31562 | ||||||||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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But again it's been a while and I don't have the time to actually replay the VN atm. You could even take Erika being washed ashore as a general outline for her being a substitute body. Then again, if we got a hint about that most of us probably already forgot about it in the meantime. However, it was implied more than one time that there might be a substitute and Erikas very existence does nothing more than proofing that it is possible to bring a substitute body on the island. Another thing we shouldn't forget is that there are a lot of wordplays with the words 'people' and 'persons'. Don't forget that at least one character in this story has a multiple personality disorder, so even if you allow Erika to exist as a living entity she won't necessarily increase the number of persons on the island. Quote:
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So to give the Rosatrice guys a little treat(Yeah I'm against rosatrice so I shouldn't do this... but meh more fun like this...): Assume she projected her love for Rudolf onto battler, and go look for a clue that she was in love with Rudolf. However you still have to explain why she claimed he was a Wolf throwing him out of the parlor. Well the answer is actually right in front of you guys - though for someone who is against Rosatrice I already said too much to help you guys already. Also don't forget that she was never as man-mad as people claimed. It is shown early that she always tried to get Maria's father to come back to them, who can't be battler since he was nine back then. Quote:
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After all Rosa was confirmed dead in several games. As long as culprits don't change this rules her out as the sole devious entity as there were other deaths after her's. Again assuming the culprit is the same every time the murders in the 2nd game could have only happened using Genji as accomplice. Quote:
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It was not EP 8 how I got the idea btw. I remembered a translated Ryukishi interview stating that there were additional, visual only, hints in the anime and re-watched it. I have yet to read EP 8, which I don't really want to do as the outcome changes according to mini games and other player behavior. As said, you only saw those 3 persons enter the room, you never saw someone taking the key though, so it probably rested in the lock. Now there are only two ways to unlock the door after Gohda locked it from inside: Either using the Master keys which's locations are unknown to us, due to the fact that Battler was apparently sleeping for some time so Rosa could have either used them herself or let Genji use them. And Rosa is not absolutely forbidden to leave the room. She is however forbidden to leave the parlor for more than the time it takes to get to a toilet and back. Otherwise she'd take the risk that battler would wake up. Even if you assume that she drugged him using the tantrum medicine, you must not forget that the one in question is designed for children, not for adults. Back o Natsuhi's room though: For the following scenario lets, for the sake of the argument, assume Rosa is the culprit anyway for a second. In this case she would be represented by Asmodeus and Beatirice (Asmodeus and Rosa have a similar Hair style, Rosa and Beatrice similar hair color) Now there are a few ways to kill someone as big as Gohda.. : 1 Using a stake up close 2 Using a gun shooting through the 3 Using device X to shoot the stakes ad1) The nice thing about those stakes is that they are almost never pulled out. The idea in letting them in instead of taking them with you afterwards is that not taking them out results in less blood splashing out of the body. However, some of it would still stain her dress, even if its just a small amount. She would have to change dresses in order for battler to not see the bloodstain, requiring an extended amount of time since she needs the guesthouse to change clothes. Maria is not a problem here since she was shown to listen to her mother when told to stay somewhere quite openly and several times too. However even if she managed to get to the guesthouse and change clothes you would still have to take the storm into account, so even if she did somehow manage to make it back in time she'd be soaking wet. And even if she would have used an umbrella she would have still left footprints on the floor due to her shoes being dirty/wet The other problem is that it is unlikely that she'd manage to kill 3 people at the same time that way. ad2) The door was still intact, no hint was given that this was not the case. ad3) Knox 4th You see no matter how much opportunity she has, she couldn't have done it without battler noticing. She is also not the only one who could have placed the latter there as the room was never truly inspected for people being in there already. Quote:
I'm after the visual clues that will most likely arise from there. Because there is one thing no one can really explain without arguments having more holes than a sponge: The letter and the knock. Even if you hide in the mansion as Erika said, you still need to get out of the (locked) mansion afterwards. The next problem is the time of the knocking itself, even with visuals there would be no way to confirm it really happened at 12 am with the way the red is built. it actually implies that the knock happened before 12 am, which brings us back to the problem of not getting out of the mansion afterwards. Edit: huge oversight on my part due to not having read EP 8: Rules for purple truth: The definition of 'culprit' is 'one who murders'. ■ It is possible for a culprit to lie. ■ It is possible for a culprit to lie even before committing murder. ■ Characters who are not culprits only speak the truth. ■ Characters who are not culprits may not cooperate with a culprit. ■ A culprit must carry out all murders directly, by their own hands. ■ A culprit must not die. ■ A culprit must be among the characters appearing in the story. ■ Purple statements are as absolute as red truths. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements. ■ Outside of spoken statements, there are no lies in the narration. Now some red and see who can suddenly lie using purple: No, it is possible. A 'culprit' is defined as 'one who murders'. It never says that they have to murder someone who appears in the story. ......In other words. If George committed murder outside the island, sometime before this crime, he could be a 'culprit' without killing anyone on the island, and it would be possible for him to lie. It wasn't a suicide, it wasn't an accidental death, it wasn't a death by illness! I really was killed by you, Battler-san!!!
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2013-01-07 at 09:26. |
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2013-01-07, 09:38 | Link #31563 | |||||
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And really, in theory all your musings about Battler not sleeping long enough... we're talking Ryukishi, the "food trolley traveling to Kinzo's room over multiple stairs" and "people not getting wet in the rain" Ryukishi. Let's not go into too much detail. Battler might've just fallen asleep naturally anyway - lack of information. Quite ironic how we're constructing a Rosatrice solution for this case to actually criticise Rosatrice. I always assumed that Genji (who received the letter before from Shannon) gave the letter to Maria while Rosa and Battler were distracted with Natsuhi's room. Considering that those two were also possible candidates for the "letter in Kinzo's room" in EP1 it wouldn't be too outlandish. Regarding the knock: a possible way of looking at is ... there was no knock. None of the reds actually confirm this, just that it was impossible for everyone. The narrative we saw is basically just this: everyone agreed that they heard a knock. But nobody actually did knock. Everyone agreed that the letter was placed outside. Everyone agreed that a witch did it. Everyone agreed that Shannon is not Beatrice. That's the lie everyone is creating together, like a big happy family. It's so convenient when there is no detective around. But as I said, EP5 is my weak point. Quote:
Of course, due to the nature of how Chiru worked, different interpretations to many events are still possible. Quote:
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If the number of people had been proclaimed as being 16, we wouldn't discuss any of this. Quote:
You should read EP8 before using purple truth. It is questionable whether it even applies or is just something Bern made up for her little game (and thus doesn't count for any other game). Don't misunderstand. If purple truth applies however, it would destroy any way for George to be a culprit (since he can only kill children and Maria is still alive at the end). But Yasu has many accomplices herself, some of them can't even kill by the way of the red. edit: Ah yes, one of the reds Erika used? You shouldn't take this one out of context. Really... just read EP8 before commenting on any of it, generally neither Bern's game nor her purple truth are seen as "canon" for the other episodes (just like the EP7 TP isn't "canon" for Beato's games). At least now I know where you are coming from with your arguments about accomplices. So, basically, purple truth would make both KNM's Rosatrice (even if George "was a culprit" due to some murder in the past, he still can't kill anyone else than children... Maria said this in purple, are you gonna say that she killed someone in the past?) and Shkanon pretty impossible. It gets even worse if we add the "culprit rules" as well: Rosatrice would fall apart at Kanon's murder (Nanjo not being an accomplice ... he can't even be one; arguably even the 1st twilight might be impossible in that case), Shkanon already in the 1st twilight (Hideyoshi can't lie about seeing Shannons corpse then). And the further you go, the more problems arise. Unless of course everyone is a murderer from some event in the past (with the exception of Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo due to the red truth that they are not murderers) but that kinda defeats the point then. Heck, even before any murders happen... NatKrauShaKaKumaGenJo constantly lie about Kinzo too. And by the rules of purple truth and a red statement, that's impossible for three of them... scratch that, four of them: it has been confirmed that Natsuhi is not the culprit in EP5, even though she killed someone in the past (the servant with the child). See why purple truth and the associated rules are generally not seen as significant outside of Bern's game? Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-07 at 11:07. |
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2013-01-07, 15:06 | Link #31564 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Spoiler for TV Tropes says:
Ryukishi says repeatedly in his interviews that he didn't want to make the answer to his story something that could just be copied and pasted on the internet, and I'm sure that when he says this he's got the "The culprit is Yasu" spoiler-meme in mind. Anyway, a common point of view in this community is that Yasu presents herself as the culprit through the stories, but isn't really the culprit. Yes. Also in Alliance, when Battler is investigating all the corpses he finds the idea that the stakes themselves could have been effective weapons to be pretty ridiculous. |
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2013-01-07, 15:36 | Link #31565 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Ah, nice to know why "Yasu" as a name caused to much laughter.
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Spoiler for Monologue of a former Rosatrice follower:
If we look at Bern's game it's quite amusing how ■ Outside of spoken statements, there are no lies in the narration. The complete opposite from Beato's games, where the narration is clearly lying to us (too). Now consider these three rules Bern had in her little game: ■ It is possible for a culprit to lie. ■ It is possible for a culprit to lie even before committing murder. ■ Characters who are not culprits only speak the truth. So... who is the narration, who speaks to us then? If anything, the author. I propose that the author him-/herself is the culprit and thus allowed to lie to us, though he/she might've not been a culprit YET. Guess you could draw one of two conclusions from this: a) Either, both Yasu and Tohya might've done something in Prime. They are culprits and can lie. If you don't have an issue with assuming Yasu did something, it might connect Bern's game a bit more with the overall story. Or, if EP1 and EP2 were written after 1986, based upon Yasu's original scripts from before 1986, maybe just Tohya. b) Might just refer to the self-insert of the author being the culprit in the stories, though this could then only refer to the "original author", since Tohya was the Detective for four episodes. Even though his role changed a tad in EP5 and EP6, sure. Not saying that this means anything really. It's just a nice little coincidence I suppose. Well then, Ryukishi. What did you do? Since you are the biggest liar through which the lesser liar Yasu lies to us? Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-07 at 16:31. |
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2013-01-07, 18:16 | Link #31566 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also, to be honest, since Umineko was the first part of mystery it was something that was pretty difficult to be turned into an animation which, for time reasons, needed to cut scenes. It would have needed Ryukishi supervising everything and telling them what thye could and could not cut. And I don't know about the first episodes but I think even if it's possible he was supervising it in the beginning, by the time we reached the end he wasn't doing it anymore. Ep 4 ending is... -_- Quote:
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2013-01-07, 18:32 | Link #31567 | ||
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As always, it all is so ambigious than any contrived interpretation can kinda work. Uuu~! Magic~! |
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2013-01-08, 00:10 | Link #31568 | ||||||||
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2. I dunno, a Chiru adaptation would be really hard to pull off well, since the plot becomes much more layered and hard to keep track of (lol, Chick-Beato suddenly popping into Featherine's study to read the old gameboards). I would recommend the manga, which is ALSO supposed to add more hints, and clears up several issues (for example, it's WAY WAY WAY clearer in the manga that Battler only witnessed 5 bodies in the shed, in legend) Quote:
Also, Yasu ... does not have multiple personality disorder. Like, it's a verbal shorthand to kind of describe the situation, but I wouldn't call it MPD, at all. Quote:
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Are you trying to apply the rules of Bern's game to the entire story? I ... dunno if i'd recommend that. |
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2013-01-08, 00:45 | Link #31569 |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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You could interpret it in a way that there has never been a letter yes, but you forgot that Battler still had the head ring wich was inside the envelope. The
red truth also heavily implies that it actually existed: And none of them misinterpreted a knocking sound. Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were not involved with the knock. No one else existed inside the mansion. And that knock refers to the action of standing directly in front of a door and hitting it with a hand. People tend to overlook that no one ever states in red that the letter was placed there at 2400 or that someone knocked at that time. All the reds you get is where people have been at that time. The wording 'the clock struck twelve' and not 'it was 12 am' So it could have actually been 2200 it could have also been 1900, no one ever says what time it actually was. I already read that part of the manga btw. @Berns game: I think we should ignore her solution, not the entire game though. @qno2 No you can take it out of context in this case - if you combine it with the other one. You can interpret it as 'even in the Meta world'. It doesn't have to mean that he is the actual culprit just that he is allowed to lie using purple now.
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2013-01-08, 02:18 | Link #31570 | |||
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Otherwise the problem arises how she hid the weapon from the all-seeing eye of our incompetent detective. Quote:
It just means that everyone is covering Shannon, who gave the ring to Battler. Quote:
If anything, it means that a second solution to Bern's game is possible, although not intended, which mirrors the main story. Maybe the Japanese fan base had their own Rosatrice. Maybe you meant it that way to begin with, sure. Sorry in that case. Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-08 at 02:41. |
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2013-01-08, 03:32 | Link #31571 | ||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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I don't say its impossible, its a sound explaination after all. Though it imho breaks apart at the point where everyone straight out suepects Natsuhi instead of Shanon if she gave the Ring to Battler. People would start questioning why she had the ring in the first place. No matter if she comes clear or not at this point she automatically becomes a suspect. Yet no one, including Battler who would know about Shanon's true self from that point on, ever suspected her. Not even for a second so they could realize afterwards that it couldn't have been her. Again I don't say its impossible. Yet casts suspicion on Shanon. Another reason why I won't give the letter up so easily is because its probably the same way the leetters in the other games were placed. Quote:
Don't forget Beato had a point there, that she can't prove no on left the room - Due to Beato's rule that red is simply the truth she couldn't deny Bern though. However Beato never misused the reds in such a way. Actually, you would have to start doubting several red just like this one here: And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00 The room was not sealed by Erika who has the right to seal a room perfectly but by Eva - so Genji could still leave the room for a short while using the window. This red is therefore not airtight, lamda simply accepted it as the truth and thats how it was possible to become the truth(implied by battler that it works this way).
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2013-01-08 at 04:18. |
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2013-01-08, 07:18 | Link #31572 | |||
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And the 2nd twilight cast some quite HEAVY suspicion on Natsuhi. Nobody has enough "love" for her to "see" that she was set up. But yes, this point is an issue for just about anything regarding Shkanon inside the stories (in prime we could argue that it didn't actually happen anyway), how are you going to hide that for too long? There are some ways to justify that, but... overall, it leaves you wondering. Besides, from a pure gameboard perspective without meta-knowledge Eva helped Shannon with the seal on Genji's room. Something about EP5 could be added though... we don't have any confirmation whether the phone calls even happened (or matter beyond being a hint for us towards Shkanon). Possibly they served only one goal, to justify Natsuhi's behavior, and are actually magic scenes. She was supposed to be framed as the culprit from the get go, so if Lambda wants, she, as the "current author" could make Natsuhi do whatever she fancies. So, on the pure gameboard level, Natsuhi actually doesn't have a reason to leave the conference, she doesn't have a reason to go into the closet. She did it because the plot needed it to happen; the magic scenes with the phone call are supposed to justify it (and are actually impossible for Shkanon, causing much grief). I mean, it's quite literally shown how Lambda, the author, calls Natsuhi: "hey d00d, it's me, your god. I need you to do something. Why? Erm, why don't we include your backstory in this then? Alright? K, thx." Hints? The difference between meta-world and gameboard is especially thin in this episode, with arguments switching between those two layers and seemingly happening at the same time. If you carry this over to how the rest of the gameboard-narrative was treated, maybe it truly doesn't make sense and was barely glossed over. "Who cares whether the actions of each character make sense as long as the readers get a mystery to solve?" So nobody suspected Shannon because of this; just not part of the script. Though maybe this is just another way of saying: Tohya/Ryukishi suck at writing. Quote:
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Though you have a point, someone here mentioned it not too long ago: Lambda wasn't allowed to change the characters too much, she could only make them do what they're capable of (though, it probably means more something along the lines of "what the readers in prime think they're capable of"), so why would Bern be able to ignore this for her game? Of course, due to the rise of the Rudolf-family-culprit theory 'everybody' in prime thought that it totally makes sense for those three to be ballsin' crazy and greedy. Some justify the overall weirdness of EP5 with "fanfiction" so there you go. It's still considered to be more true to Beato's games as Berns for some odd reason. Only the game master is allowed to use red? Does this make Ange's red truth about being Battler's brother any less true? Or the red both Bern and Lambda dropped in the EP4 "????" ? Virgilia's red about Natsuhi? All the various people using red in EP6? Spoiler for Bern's game, purple, red, culprit rules in relation to Beato's game:
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2013-01-08, 09:33 | Link #31573 | |||||||||||
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The manga deals much better with Beato and Natsuhi's relation, with Kyrie's surprise and pain at discovering the truth about Battler, with Rosa's past and her relation with Maria, even with Kinzo and Genji's relation. Ep 8 manga version is definitely awesome. Quote:
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LOL, maybe they could even claim Erika was the Sumadera's killer. Quote:
Shannon might have not revealed her true identity or the whole truth about Kinzo's death, she might have just offered cooperation and added things like 'madam tells me to say I saw the master but actually it's years from the last I saw it... but i'm just a servant and this is no proof the master is 'vanished'... though master was so kind I want to help you all to find out the truth...' Also, the solution for the knok is 'given' in a tip, in which a 'mysterious' envelope was supposed to be handed in the same way. Quote:
She was getting suspicious and since Battler solved the epitaph she thought that Kinzo would have him to have the ring. Another possibility is that Battler was handed the solution of the epitaph and the ring by 'someone' and was asked to fake finding the solution. Then this someone instructed them about how they should tell they got the ring. Or else Shannon said she found the mysterious envelope in front of her door and she preferred to hand it to... Eva or Rudolf instead than Natsuhi but she's afraid if this were to come up Natsuhi would blame her so could they please tell her the envelope was found in a different way? Really, there's dozens of way to deliver the envelope to the siblings while looking innocent. Quote:
So we know that Bern's red is true merely because she can say it. Theoretically Bern could have found out the culprit just by trying to say in red X is the culprit replacing with X the name of each person on the island until she would manage to say the full sentence in red. Then she would know she had the culprit. Quote:
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Everything seems very similar to a Sherlock Holmes tale where the reader only know that Holmes lowered is gaze before hearing Holmes going into a detailed description of how the culprit should be and then, when Watson asks how Holmes knows, we get lot of details like how Holmes saw there were footprints on the ground and how studing them he could say this and that and how the air smelled of this and that and so on. In short the competition between Holmes and the reader is lost by the beginning because the reader has way less hints than Holmes to make deductions however the reader doesn't care as we deem Holmes reliable. Erika is the same as Holmes as she has at her hands lot of extra hints however we don't judge her reliable so we wonder if the fingertips she found and identified as... let's say Battler, are really Battler or she lied and Bern is providing her a fake red truth so that they can trap Natsuhi. I think Bern's red truth is true, the trick is they're using it to force an interpretation that will show Natsuhi is the culprit. It's like when they showed that Kinzo was in Natsuhi's bed. All the red truths about Kinzo not being in the other places were true but the final deduction was obviously a lie. Quote:
This allows also Natsuhi to lie as she killed the servant. And since in Umineko you can kill a personality and even a plushie... this allow Rosa to lie as she killed Sakutarou, Maria as she killed Rosa many times in her head, Kyrie as she killed Asumu in her head many times. And probably everyone else because since the definition of death and killing is too lose likely just by stepping on a bug you become a murderer. Though I don't think the purple statements are supposed to be applied to all the games. Bern made them to make things simpler and just for her game. I doubt they'll work in the others (and if you provide George with a gun he can kill an adult with no problems... actually likely he could kill one even without it, just with one of his kick). |
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2013-01-08, 10:37 | Link #31574 | ||||
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When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room. Could be anything, really. Sure, there was a call. Maybe not even for Natsuhi, Genji just transferred to somewhere - maybe those in the cousins room received their "orders" from the parlor-group or whatever happened in EP5 to begin with. Why wouldn't they just dial the number of the guest-house directly? Well, there goes this idea I suppose, at least now I can claim that "shoddy narrative" is an actual argument for my cause. And Lambda doing that call, even if she's dressed up... is basically what I'm saying, and it has been shown in the VN too. So hey, we haven't had some gratuitous blue lately. The mystery man doesn't even exist on the gameboard and is just author interference to keep the narrative together via intertwining magic and reality on the gameboard. From a pure non-magical standpoint, Natsuhi just happens to decide hiding in that particular closet would be a swell idea. This author doesn't care about the story but just wants to present a convoluted mystery without heart. The above would be a fitting criticsm for the mystery genre, all things considered. Far-fetched? Sure, just screwing around, don't mind me. Quote:
Those were the days. Quote:
Though Natsuhi is not the culprit as EP5 confirmed, so even if she can lie... If those loose interpretations of "murder" applied, the solution to Bern's game would've been impossible to pinpoint, since everyone is lying. Pretty sure it's just about humans. Well, that's the thing: the purple statements in Bern's game don't matter as long as you don't go for a George-culprit theory (or use them willy nilly over all the games... who knows what's purple and what not? Just talking about the purple that we've got), since most of them are pretty specific for Bern's mystery. So you might as well add them, doesn't matter. They're truly not the problem, everything else from Bern's game however... yeah, let's not apply those things: In the wake of a huge logic error spears would rain down from the sky as natural disasters as well as godly thunderbolts eliminate the gameboard, Ryukishi, and every single reader. If someone however can create a theory that: easy - considers the Detective's perspective - follows the red (semantic cheats make this easy) - includes the purple statements from Bern's game (only few general statements that could be applied to all games) medium (all those before and) - interprets magic scenes - uses Will's hints - considers Knox's (namely, the 2nd) - uses a "Mastermind"-character for EP1-4, who is always at the center of the mystery hard (all those before and) - connects to Chiru in a meaningful manner lunatic (all those before and) - uses Bern's definition of a culprit (so no accomplices either) Bonus points - use Van Dine as well ... yeah, if you beat lunatic, you have my deepest respects. Oh, forgot one difficulty: IMPOSSIBLE (all those before and) - actually makes sense But that's just silly. |
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2013-01-08, 13:13 | Link #31575 | ||
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Not that I believe the purple to matter in the other gameboards but apparently it's structured to permit this sort of logic twisting. |
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2013-01-08, 13:33 | Link #31576 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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I was aware jiblue.
And I was referring to: Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers. Unless the translation has made a little blunder there (and the Japanese sentence is actually way more precise), it seems to say "they didn't kill each other, have never killed and can't kill period - they are not killers." If we take the red like this, and apparently it's quite popular to do so: the very fact that this could be stated about Nanjo (and because that red doesn't specify that it's only talking about Rokkenjima 1986) means that he hasn't killed anyone in the past either, otherwise he'd already be a killer/murderer. So Erika's red can't apply to him or the other two since backstories can't magically change like the contents of the cat box. Or we argue about the semantics between "murderer" and "killer", sure. What are we even doing? Both of us agree that Bern's game and it's special rules don't really hold any significance for Beato's gameboards. Anything we haven't complained about lately? |
2013-01-08, 16:42 | Link #31577 | ||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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ShKanon people, although diverse themselves, all understand Umineko on some kind of meta-level. Anti-ShKanonism is the result of a deficiency in meta-understanding. Quote:
No knock, sure, but why no letter? The red syntax seems to imply that the letter at least exists, and there's no need doubt its existence to make the lie interpretation work, as it could have simply been written by anyone in the parlor. In fact, it would be foolish for them to lie about that letter-and-knock event and not have the necessary after-the-fact prop. Quote:
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------------------------------------- Since the overall intrigue of EP5 is being discussed and there seem to be a few new people around, I'm going to reintroduce a theory I've mentioned before (hopefully in a more organized, more convincing way). Now, in EP5 there's that scene where Erika and Battler are in the middle of solving the epitaph and searching for the path to the gold, and then Battler has a vision of Kinzo, who points the way for him. But we also know that No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. So then we know for a fact that when Battler told Erika that "grandfather pointed the way", he was lying. Nothing special so far, I know, since this logic was all explained as part of the EP5 ura anyway. However, if you think about what Battler was lying about, and the possible reasons for why he would lie about it, there are some very surprising implications. First, I'll re-summarize the scene here, with the unreliable parts in gold: Spoiler for summary:
You could suppose that he was simply contemplating the new revelation that the gold would cause problems in his family, when he coincidentally saw the lion statue turned, then mentioned it to Erika (despite having just realized that finding the gold is actually a bad thing), but since he was a bit mad at her decided to tease her a little bit by lying about having met Kinzo. Possible, of course, but I think this theory sucks. It has too many weird jumps in Battler's thought process. So, here's the theory I like: Spoiler for drumroll please:
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2013-01-08, 17:48 | Link #31578 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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As people die in EP 3 & 5 is reasonable to assume the epitaph wasn't solved but the solution or part of it was handed to them, possibly in exchange for their cooperation in Eva's case and in Battler's... no idea. It's possible that the solution was handed to the siblings (Eva, Rudolf and Rosa) by Shannon and they asked Battler to play detective (maybe to avoid arguing among them) so as to 'force grandad to show up' in the belief it would be some sort of prank. He thought of it as a game as he's not suspecting grandfather is dead until, with Erika's help, he realized what the adults were really planning but, by then, it was too late to pull back as, if he hadn't found the gold, Erika would have found it. After all this would explain why Battler switched from being unable to solve the epitaph in the prior episodes to solving it so easily in Ep 5. Alternatively Battler might have seen Yasu dressed up as Beato pointing him to the lion. He didn't believe in Beatrice and he didn't want to sound nut saying he saw her so he gave the first apparently rational explanation that came to his mind, that he saw someone else, namely Kinzo. However i still prefer the idea he already knew the solution. It explain much better how good he is at solving the epitaph when previously he couldn't really advance. |
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2013-01-08, 21:22 | Link #31579 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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You can actually form a sound theory about Kinzo using that red we got: battler saw Ushiromiya Kinzo. dead or Alive does not matter No one would mistake him for another. What I want to say is: he discorvered the corpse or something like that. We even got a hint in that regard: At the Chapel fight between him and Dlanor, at the point where he uses the golden truth, he states that there is one body that could b kinzo's. Don't forget the red about Kinzo has actually several consequences: 1st ) You can't msitake any object for Kinzo 2nd) You cant mistake another person for kinzo 3rd) You can't mistake Kinzo for someone else Yet the red still allows us to have seen his corpse. Don't forget Dlanor couldn't get past the Golden truth. If the body would have never been hinted she could have simply said that the case must not be resolved with clues that were not presented in red and the golden truth would have been weaker than the red one. As you can't mistake Kinzo for someone else, the corpse batttler talk about during the scene msut have really been Kinzo's. Otherwise you would have needed him as a body double for someone else. Edit: Or shanon could have moved the body as if it was alive, it would still not violate the red.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2013-01-08 at 21:35. |
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2013-01-08, 21:33 | Link #31580 | ||||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But you also have to consider that it could be the other way around. That EP5 has much more important details: 'Legend' and 'Turn' were written by Yasuda (although the exact time is hard to determine, since Ange's illness was accounted for, but not Eva's death.) Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler were created on Yasuda's impression of the Battler from 6 years ago, as she didn't see him since then. If we assume that 'End' was done by 9^9 but based on a witchhunter's forgery, then that witchhunter could have easily gotten good information about the characters by asking their colleagues or class mates. Therefore Battler's personality in 'Legend' and 'Turn' were a red herring, while his personality in 'End' was much closer to the truth. "Genius Battler Theory" for EP6 makes this seem more likely too. But something I doubt a lot of people (if any) considered yet: The chance for Erika together with Battler to solve the epitaph, or at least to get into the gold room, is higher than 0,1%. This does NOT include the chance of Battler solving the epitaph alone or solving it with groups that do not include Erika source: logic and Quote:
Of course all of this is just my speculation (aside from the one red truth), but I had this stance for a long time and no one argued with me about it, compared to the "ikuko=yasu" theory, where I could even see a balanced tendency and everyone was talking about it and answered my posts regarding it. Quote:
This always made me wonder... what if one simply takes out Kinzo and replaces these scenes with Yasuda instead? I mean we often got the impression that "Kinzo = Beatrice", escpacially in EP4, where Battler argued that "someone" could have taken Kinzo's name. Quote:
Sorry if something is not understandable, i wrote this in the middle of the night.
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