Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, do you believe Homura is evil then? Is she a liar as well?

If you really think this, you haven't watched enough of the genre, heh. Dark and grim mahou shoujo has been done before. That's not to say that Madoka doesn't have some redeeming merit; it does. It's a decent show (just hoping the plot holes are resolved). But as you yourself have stated, this has happened before, especially if you believe this is Faustian in nature.

I don't think Homura is evil based on her actions so far, because I don't believe any of her actions have been evil. I just don't see enough evidence to draw a conclusion one way or the other on whether she's good or merely motivated by self-interested in her case. I happen to believe the case with Kyuube is much more clear-cut.

Yes, MG series have been dark and grim before - but I think this one has shown a willingness to go places that even those darker shows have been less willing to go. I'm not going to throw Faust into that argument because Faust is irrelevant to it - Faust isn't an anime, it's a 16th Century German legend. In terms of apples to apples, I think other MG shows have had a circuit breaker that, based on what I've seen so far, I don't believe this one has. I could be wrong and maybe Shinbo will sell out in the end, but it's still pleasingly unsettling even if I still enjoy the show intellectually more than emotionally.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I don't think Homura is evil based on her actions so far, because I don't believe any of her actions have been evil. I just don't see enough evidence to draw a conclusion one way or the other on whether she's good or merely motivated by self-interested in her case. I happen to believe the case with Kyuube is much more clear-cut.

Well, it's interesting to note, because the one point of evidence for Kyube being evil, is that he has withheld information. That's a point I'd actually agree tends to lend weight to that argument. Unfortunately, if we want to be fair, then we have to realize Homura has done the same thing. So equal judgments apply.

For the record, I believe neither one to be evil based on withholding information. And given what we have learned of Kyube, he is acting 100% pure logically without regard for emotion.

Yes, MG series have been dark and grim before - but I think this one has shown a willingness to go places that even those darker shows have been less willing to go.

Attempted rape? The same series had a few deaths, too, of people that didn't come back.

[Hypernova]

ep6 thoughts:

-This ep I noticed that QB does say that GS is used to purify SGs instead of powering them like what Mami says, and he didn't correct her when she was explaining to the girls. This ep Sayaka didn't even call him out on it. QB may not lie, but he manipulates by letting you come to your own conclusions and let you think it's true by staying silent (unless you ask).

-Given that your body is powered by magic, it's clear that simply by existing you are tainting your SG, this it the enforcing mechanism people have been wondering about.

[Iknowwhatyou]

lol one thing popped into mind this episode was "contract" someone should sue QB at magical court.He didn't even give them the full of the contract! That is wrong and sueable!

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"Sign up for World War II, kids! You'll risk death, losing limbs, and come back with mental issues, but you'll be helping to save the free world from a dire threat!"

...

"Hmm, why is no one signing up? Maybe we need a different campaign, and should probably gloss over the bad stuff, or else we'll lose the war..."

I agree that IF Kyube is being deceiving so that there would be soldiers to save the humankind, then he is not evil (accroding to my definition of "evil", at least). I would not like him, but I would also not say that he is wrong.

However, that is a big IF that we don't know. He might be some selfish mean monster or devil that feeds on the soul of the perhaps-fallen-magical- girls (aka maybe the witches). WE DON'T KNOW.

There currently exists no direct evidence to say whether he is evil or he is not.

Well, he is a freaking DECEVING little furry smiling-only-perhaps-freaking-looking creature for sure. If somebody decideds that the act of "deceving naive girls to risk their lives" is itself evil, regardless of why, then I would agree that Kyube is evil by this particular definition. Really depends on what you think is evil.

[Reckoner]

People's arguments in this thread have presented opinions going from the sensible to the absolutely ludicrous. Lets step back for a moment and look at this issue sensibly.

Is Kyube good, evil, or neither?

1. On what scale are we basing this on...The morality of humans? And if so, of which society, or of which viewpoint?
2. Most importantly, are magical girls a necessary existence in this world for the greater good? Does it only serve the benefit of Kyube himself, and if so is it for survival or is it for some other purpose?

I think this is important to keep in mind as we try to decipher the actions of our so called little mascot.

At this very moment, there simply isn't enough information available to answer all these questions. It's fine to believe in what you want, but no one should be asserting their opinion as an absolute truth just yet.

Even with how dark this episode ended, all we've seen is that Kyube's sense of morality is not quite normal, or like a human's sense of morality rather.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeeeah, that's a pretty big plot hole.

Or a pretty big character flaw, depending on your point of view.

It's not necessarily either. We don't know enough to make a claim about either.

[Triple_R]

Just finished watching this episode. It's left me with mixed feelings. Seeing the subs certainly changes things considerably from how I felt from the raw and poster comments alone.

There's a certain undeniable cold logic to what Kyubey is saying, imo.

What Kyubey is doing is very creepy, quite disturbing, and almost hair-raising.

But during Kyubey's spiel where he talked about how humans react to this aspect of the magical girl profession, do you know who he made me think a lot of?

He made me think of this guy:




Kyubey: All you reactionary humans are the same, with your silly sentimental attachments to normal human bodies, and your tendency to be ruled by emotions. Why can't you just keep focus on the issue at hand, which is fighting the witches and collecting grief seeds? Why can't you just be ruled by pure logic, as I am? Does it matter if your soul is in your body, or in a jewel? By separating the soul from the body, I make your body stronger, and easier to revive from heavy damage. Is this not objectively for the better?


Just like with Mr. Spock, there is a certain cold inescapable logic to Kyubey's words. And just like Bones McCoy was utterly unnerved by Spock at times, we are unnerved by Kyubey.

Now, do I think that Spock would approve of what Kyubey is doing? Maybe not, but I think that Spock would have to concede that there is some logic to what Kyubey is doing.

I'm starting to think that Kyubey, like a Vulcan from Star Trek, has simply put aside his emotions to be governed by cold, hard logic as much as possible. Does that make him right? No, not necessarily. But it does continue to make me feel cautious about calling him "evil".

Is what he doing unethical? Yes.

But there is a harsh pragmatism to it.

And the further we get into this anime, the less likely it seems to me that Kyubey has a truly villainous ulterior motive. His means are very questionable, but his ends seem abundantly clear. The fact that he was prodding Sayaka this episode to go out there and get more witches (i.e. grief seeds) suggests to me that he really does want to have witches hunted down. Now, why he wants that, I don't know. But it's hard for me to imagine Kyubey having some evil genius master scheme in mind. I doubt that he's emotional enough to be a power-hungry villain or a sadistic fiend.

So if people want to call Kyubey evil on the sheer basis of what he's doing, then that's fine. I can perfectly understand that. But I think it's important here to recognize that even if his acts are evil, he doesn't appear to be driven by a dark, evil purpose. He doesn't appear to be power-hungry, or sadistic. So, if you think that he's evil, at least recognize that he's not evil in the way that these characters are:







He's not a power-mad despot, he's not a masterfully malevolent menace that enjoys playing extremely sadistic games with people (that would be Kyoko, folks ), he's not an egotistical sociopath with an all-encompassing personal vendetta, and he's not a serial killer who gets laughs from watching people die in "comedic" ways. He's just very cold, and ruthlessly logical, and willing to trample on people's feelings and deceive them in order to get the job done.

Is that enough for a viewer to legitimately dislike him, or even hate him?

Yes, it is. I don't personally, but I can see why people would.


But don't confuse him with classic evil villainy. He really isn't that, imo. I'd honestly be shocked if he turns out to be like any of the villains I've referenced in this post.

I'll have more to say about the episode as a whole in a separate post, as I want to keep this one focused solely on Kyubey.

[estdesoda]

Some random thought (very random)...

Homura was deomstrated to be a very powerful MG, that could do something that appears to be either teleportaion or time stop, and overpowers Sayaka and Kyoko easily...How come then, Mami was able to tie her up? I would image it to be pretty difficult or near impossible to tie up someone who can either stop or does teleportation (or even just super-high speed...)

Possiblities:

1. It's a plot flaw. Mami has got to die, so Homura was made unable to escape.
2. Mami's ribbon has the ability to seal someone else's superpower. That's part of Mami's magic.
3. Homura intentionally let Mami tied her up and not escape, just so that Madoka can watch Mami die and be scared to death. Wow.

I think the answer is number 1：plot flaw. However, number 3 just rises to me as a possibility that can be neither proved nor disproved...

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Mentar

One side revelation I had on the third rewatch... it's obvious that Kyoko - who is supposed to be quite senior - didn't know anything about the Soul Gem proximity issue. Homura on the other hand clearly knew, and acted instantly. So it's safe to assume that Homura is very well-versed in the technicalities of the MG contract.

WHY DIDN'T SHE USE HER KNOWLEDGE TO DISSUADE MADOKA AND SAYAKA?

Does she have the Senjogahara disease? (Very smart and capable, but tremendous deficits on the social dealings side) Or is there something preventing her?

Any plausible explanations welcome, I couldn't come up with any so far...

Honestly it might possibly be that if she is from the future, this isn't just the second time she is reliving this period. It could be the third or fourth or even more than that. It's possible that she is just constantly trying to advert disaster anyway she can and despite anything maybe she did try to interfere more in the past and it never worked so now she's taking advantage of the fact that she knows that stuff like Mami dying and Kyoko showing up and the walpurgis night happening.

Also it would tend to explain her connection to madoka if madoka is constantly one of the last few to survive in every timeline then she and homura have probably had a lot of bonding time.

[Key Board]

not many anime can be called a deconstruction

A deconstruction would be something like Evangelion, which despite (or perhaps because of) the polarizing response, broke down many of the foundations of the giant robot genre

Mai Hime was an attempted deconstruction of the magical girl genre, if that passes as magical girl

Madoka is a deconstruction done in the similar method as Mai Hime, but it's also taking its own direction and is not afraid of holding back punches

You expect to the story to have a dark element, but not to the extent that it is pulling of and not in a magical girl show. They really are stressing that the only way to win is to not play the game (becoming a magical girl)

If there is another magical show that does this then well, I can't think of any, though Mai Hime comes close.

On another note, mom's advice to Madoka probably has a double meaning.

I think she's sleeping with her boss to gain promotions

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I would consider all of those evil. #5 is questionable but then again I expect that we as the viewers will know whether Kyuube enjoys eating or he's actually hungry.

Ah that good because 3 and 4 have their excuses already built into them. So if the excuse of"not his fault" is acceptable, then 3 and 4 would not be evil. 4 shows lying by ommision where you gain from the omission.

5 refers to a point so far no one has mentioned when they scramble to defend kyubei. Who says he needs the grief seeds at that rate to survive?

Certainly in RL many in developed countries could survive on a much lower calorie intake yet people keep upsizing their food or eating much more than they need. This same idea applies.

Kyubei has survived on the rate of seeds collected by Mami. Now he has Sayaka covering Mami as well as Kyoko in the mix. So why does he need Madoka to "survive"? If he does not, then why does he keep suggesting Madoka become a MS?

[Key Board]

because he's an opportunistic reverse mortgage salesman

and Madoka is a great investment

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Key Board

because he's an opportunistic reverse mortgage salesman

and Madoka is a great investment

And thus the "he's not evil, its for his survival" direction some are taking would fail

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So if people want to call Kyubey evil on the sheer basis of what he's doing, then that's fine. I can perfectly understand that. But I think it's important here to recognize that even if his acts are evil, he doesn't appear to be driven by a dark, evil purpose. He doesn't appear to be power-hungry, or sadistic. So, if you think that he's evil, at least recognize that he's not evil in the way that these characters are:

Hey, wait；Beatrice isn't neccesarry evil, too lol！

But I agree with most of what you have said. Execpt that I have never watched Star Treks and do not know who Spock is. Oh well.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But don't confuse him with classic evil villainy. He really isn't that, imo. I'd honestly be shocked if he turns out to be like any of the villains I've referenced in this post.

He MIGHT be. He might be a classic evil villainy who is just really good at hiding up his own emotion. I do not think the show would show him that way, through, but the possibility still exists.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Ah that good because 3 and 4 have their excuses already built into them. So if the excuse of"not his fault" is acceptable, then 3 and 4 would not be evil. 4 shows lying by ommision where you gain from the omission.

5 refers to a point so far no one has mentioned when they scramble to defend kyubei. Who says he needs the grief seeds at that rate to survive?

Certainly in RL many in developed countries could survive on a much lower calorie intake yet people keep upsizing their food or eating much more than they need. This same idea applies.

Kyubei has survived on the rate of seeds collected by Mami. Now he has Sayaka covering Mami as well as Kyoko in the mix. So why does he need Madoka to "survive"? If he does not, then why does he keep suggesting Madoka become a MS?

Consider it insurance for tough times?

[Used Can]

You know, it only made sense. Just as in Faust, you pay your wish with your soul.
I find it funny I didn't see it coming.

As for QB, who knows? I've never thought of him as evil, but it's always been clear he has his own agenda. Of course, whether this agenda involves any real benefit for humanity or not is yet to be revealed.

As for Homura, I think she's a good girl. I have no idea why she's so interested in Madoka, but I believe the theory about her being from the future (or, at least, holding memories from the future) may be true. In fact, I think we get hints to that on every episode. My guess is, assuming the aforementioned theory is true, she developed a bond with Madoka and now she wants to prevent Madoka from living an even harsher life. In addition, she's also shown concern for Mami and Sayaka to some extent - of course, it could be up to debate whether this was done for Madoka's sake, but I do believe Homura does care for them Madoka's sanity notwithstanding. Either way, considering that the apparent price of becoming a Puella Magi is your soul, I'm not surprised that Homura doesn't want Madoka to make a contract.

I wonder if this series ending will follow the original ending of Faust, Goethe's or something original.

[Key Board]

I don't know what he's getting out of this, or if even needs to survive of grief seeds

nobody does.

but one thing is clear, he's a very pushy and opportunistic salesman. He's also amoral has little to no empathy

If you have ever seen Bokurano, he's the Koemushi of this story. And Koemushi was not a nice person

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Makender

Consider it insurance for tough times?

Thus its no longer "survival" but "survival with insurance"? So when the insurance is not needed, the extras just becomes part of the enjoyment of eating then.

Then perhaps he will also need insurance on the insurance followed by insurance on the insurance on the insurance and so forth.

Finally he becomes vastly rich in grief seeds with plenty of slave puppets and he's still not evil because its just for him to survive

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I don't know what he's getting out of this, or if even needs to survive of grief seeds

nobody does.

but one thing is clear, he's a very pushy and opportunistic salesman. He's also amoral has little to no empathy

If you have ever seen Bokurano, he's the Koemushi of this story. And Koemushi was not a nice person

Koemushi was..not a favourable creature at all. However, if I remembered clearly, what Koemushi's action ultimately contributes to is the survival of the parallel universe, which by itself isn't evil.

Now I just really wonder what Kyube's motivation is.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

So why does he need Madoka to "survive"? If he does not, then why does he keep suggesting Madoka become a MS?

Putting the "survive" in quotes is important, because we don't know that he eats them to survive. Either he eats them because he enjoys eating them, or because that's the real way to destroy them.