Code Geass - Spoilers & Speculation (ver 2 old)

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by leechbox

Lelouch has a 50/50 chance of living.
C.C Dies for sure...
Kallen doesn't die...
Jeramiah - not sure
2nd prince - of course
charles - of course
anya - not really
anya (mother inside) - maybe

I wouldn't write Schneizel a obituary yet myself actually. I think his chances are also going to be 50%. That is just my opinion though. It all depends on what started him down this road and what he and Lelouch do when they confront each other.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Var

I may not, but people have experienced it and gone on to live. The point is that, simply, dieing removes all possibilities for the future. Those people who died likely had no choice in the matter, Geass is an ultimatum like death. C.C. spread the curse, there in she's suffered for it. Geass is unbridled power, which is a bad thing. She, however, has not paid for taking the future away from hundreds of people.


No, Geass is power. Power has no form or side in the 'good or evil' debate, however, once it is spread openly on the basis of completing a selfish wish that power begins to do like all power and corrupt. No matter how power is used, it always destroys. But the point is, C.C. spread this power on the basis of selfishness, not benevolence.

Every being is looking for their own benefits, that's almost universal law, that's even the reason why Utopia can't exist. C.C is no different from that, for her getting to die, before recent events, was same as instict to live. Eitherway you could've called it instict to die. When making sure you'll survive, you won't think of the consequences. A humans won't be judged, when motivated by instict to live (Self defense for example). Same should apply here.

What is a fit punishment for taking future of hmm 10 people? It's just your interpretation that C.C. actions lead to the loss of lives. There's uncountable amount of factors that lead to the loss. With out C.C. it could even have been far greater. L.L disposed most of the people, not C.C.
One way or another, C.C was one of the factors.
And from my point of the view she has recived divine punishment far greater than her deeds.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So the opposite of the devil is to not appear in the person's time of greatest need and don't present what they need?
Now I see why Angels only appeared to the dying match girl after she froze to death, and not before.

What causes problems with the Geass is the fact that one's wish is just that; a wish. And often what you asked for isn't what you REALLY wanted, because not many people in the world understand themselves enough to know what they need.

There is a difference in presenting a person an out and saving them, as an angel, and giving them ultimate, unremovable power. An angel would not hand someone Geass, in Mao's case for instance, he'd be given comfort not power. Lelouch would have been saved, not given willbending power. Etc...

Originally Posted by whiter

Every being is looking for their own benefits, that's almost universal law, that's even the reason why Utopia can't exist. C.C is no different from that, for her getting to die, before recent events, was same as instict to live. Eitherway you could've called it instict to die. When making sure you'll survive, you won't think of the consequences. A humans won't be judged, when motivated by instict to live (Self defense for example). Same should apply here.

What is a fit punishment for taking future of hmm 10 people? It's just your interpretation that C.C. actions lead to the loss of lives. There's uncountable amount of factors that lead to the loss. With out C.C. it could even have been far greater. L.L disposed most of the people, not C.C.
One way or another, C.C was one of the factors.
And from my point of the view she has recived divine punishment far greater than her deeds.

You're inverting an idea of survival instinct to justify a desire to die? What? Dieing is not an instinct, it is a desire. No entity instictually wants to die, they do however instinctually want to survive. That is fact of life. Dragging people down to hell, who had no desire to die, just because you did, is not the same as killing people in order to survive.

A person who takes the future of one person really does not deserve to themselves have a future, taking it of hundreds of people just digs a deeper hole.

[Stretch5920]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I wouldn't write Schneizel a obituary yet myself actually. I think his chances are also going to be 50%. That is just my opinion though. It all depends on what started him down this road and what he and Lelouch do when they confront each other.

I think a good way to resolve the Schneizel and Lelouch conflict would be for Lelouch to win without Geass, and instead of killing Schneizel he offers his hand to him and say he doesn't want to be responsible for the death of his family ever again.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

There is a difference in presenting a person an out and saving them, as an angel, and giving them ultimate, unremovable power. An angel would not hand someone Geass, in Mao's case for instance, he'd be given comfort not power. Lelouch would have been saved, not given willbending power. Etc...

Indeed. Var is absolutely correct Vallen. Geass is like selling your sold to the devil (which is what Lelouch even SAYS himself actually in S1 23.) There is no good that can come from the power. At all.

Originally Posted by Stretch5920

I think a good way to resolve the Schneizel and Lelouch conflict would be for Lelouch to win without Geass, and instead of killing Schneizel he offers his hand to him and say he doesn't want to be responsible for the death of his family ever again.

It is sappy, but I actually see something like that myself. Which is why I said don't write him an obituary yet.

[Stretch5920]

Originally Posted by Orga777

It is sappy, but I actually see something like that myself. Which is why I said don't write him an obituary yet.

Yeah I know it's sappy, but I think it fits.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

I am not saying she has to die, I actually want her old self that was untouched by geass to be able to live and find her happiness uncorrupted by geass.

Ah, but CC hasn't been corrupted by Geass for years. She was, back before she was an immortal, when she lived a decadent lifestyle and bent people to her will.
That was what, 10 years at best?

Then she spent hundreds of years wanting to die.

And now she finally got in touch with her true self, and found someone who understood her. Why should she give it all up now to start all over again? She had already freed herself from the "true curse" in the duration of the TV series, thanks to Lulu's intervention. The "true curse" being, of course, the inability to live happily.

What made all this happen was the human condition. The condition that made her a slave at the beginning. But the world isn't much better now in her modern universe than it was back in the middle ages. People are still people. CC's past actions could not be undone; even a memory wipe wouldn't change that. But she can do good with what she had learned.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Stretch5920

I'll agree this is likely, though I don't think it should happen. Lelouch shouldn't die, he should live and continue to work towards keeping Nunnally's dream alive.

Lelouch, in my opinion, needs to survive and change the world he threw into chaos. He has a duty to fix it. But, the way I see it, and judging by Kallen's level of affection for Lelouch, her getting turned down would likely break her, and I doubt Lelouch could do such a thing, he could not do it with Shirley. So... really... that line confuses the shit out of me, to be honest.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ah, but CC hasn't been corrupted by Geass for years. She was, back before she was an immortal, when she lived a decadent lifestyle and bent people to her will.
That was what, 10 years at best?

Then she spent hundreds of years wanting to die.

And now she finally got in touch with her true self, and found someone who understood her. Why should she give it all up now to start all over again? She had already freed herself from the "true curse" in the duration of the TV series, thanks to Lulu's intervention. The "true curse" being, of course, the inability to live happily.

What made all this happen was the human condition. The condition that made her a slave at the beginning. But the world isn't much better now in her modern universe than it was back in the middle ages. People are still people. CC's past actions could not be undone; even a memory wipe wouldn't change that. But she can do good with what she had learned.

And, simply, where is the price she paid in this? Having to wait a long time? Where is her price for ending the happiness of hundreds because she wanted to die?

Hell, suddenly changing her desire invalidates all the lives she took on false pretenses. If anything it makes it even worse. "Oh, I ruined your life/kill you. Sorry, I was confused in what I wanted."

[Witacume]

i feel much better after my initial what the hell.
@Var it makes sense if she is dying

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Var

A person who takes the future of one person really does not deserve to themselves have a future, taking it of hundreds of people just digs a deeper hole.

You speak of the future like it is a commodity; it is not.

Taking CC's future would not bring people back. And since CC isn't inclined to repeat her mistakes, taking HER future isn't going to save anyone later.

People can only pay for what they have done by staying alive and undo the damage to society. Nothing else ever does anything good.

And, simply, where is the price she paid in this? Having to wait a long time? Where is her price for ending the happiness of hundreds because she wanted to die?

Hell, suddenly changing her desire invalidates all the lives she took on false pretenses. If anything it makes it even worse. "Oh, I ruined your life/kill you. Sorry, I was confused in what I wanted."

CC was wrong. She is sorry. She won't do it again, and will make sure others will not make the same mistakes she did.
THAT's looking into the future. To focus on people who have died is to ignore those who are yet to come. The future is exactly that; the future.

And if people want to dwell on the past, they can join Charles in blowing up the planet. Charles could not forgive; he could not move on. Those who could not move on, have no future.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So the opposite of the devil is to not appear in the person's time of greatest need and don't present what they need?

THere is a logic mistake here : the opposite of
appear in the person's time of greatest need and present what they need?

is actually

not appear in the person's time of greatest need OR don't present what they need?


And the opposite of "being a Devil" is not "being an Angel", but "being anything but a Devil".

[Var]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You speak of the future like it is a commodity; it is not.

Taking CC's future would not bring people back. And since CC isn't inclined to repeat her mistakes, taking HER future isn't going to save anyone later.

People can only pay for what they have done by staying alive and undo the damage to society. Nothing else ever does anything good.

The future is a commodity. People destroys each other's futures everyday to further their own ambitions (and futures). The future is as much a commodity as money is.

C.C. took hundreds of futures in a selfish desire to have no future. Do you notice how retarded that sounds?

How is her being given everything, paying for what she did?

[darthfury78]

I think that Code Geass should end on a reset that could revert back to Episode 21 of season 1 before Euphemia was accidently geassed. I now believe that the first half of R2 was nothing more than a reintroduction of the Ashford Cast, that was forced upon the Sunrise Executives so that the younger pre-teen audience could see this series for the first time and go out and buy the CG Robots. I am not sure if the toys are doing that well; but it might have been the worst idea that they could ever think of.

It's like turning Golgo 13 into a TV show for kids.

The producers should go ahead and produce the series in the format that it was meant to be, which would have made it into a better series. There was one example of an anime that had the same problem when the creator/director wasn't satisfied with the first season. Thus when he was allowed to retell the series, the way he wanted it to be, it did much better than the first version. Code Geass is doing well enough for Sunrise to allow the series creators to retell the saga the way it was suppose to happen. But it would have to get its late night timeslot back.

[Stretch5920]

Originally Posted by Var

Lelouch, in my opinion, needs to survive and change the world he threw into chaos. He has a duty to fix it. But, the way I see it, and judging by Kallen's level of affection for Lelouch, her getting turned down would likely break her, and I doubt Lelouch could do such a thing, he could not do it with Shirley. So... really...

I don't think Kallen would break. She just wants the truth and if the truth is just friends, then I think she will accept it. She's not Rolo.

Originally Posted by Var

that line confuses the shit out of me, to be honest.

best scenario would be what Village Idiot said and it's Kallen telling him to prove that he loves her not with words, but with actions

Originally Posted by darthfury78

I think that Code Geass should end on a reset that could revert back to Episode 21 of season 1 before Euphemia was accidently geassed.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

I think that Code Geass should end on a reset that could revert back to Episode 21 of season 1 before Euphemia was accidently geassed. I now believe that the first half of R2 was nothing more than a reintroduction of the Ashford Cast, that was forced upon the Sunrise Executives so that the younger pre-teen audience could see this series for the first time and go out and buy the CG Robots. I am not sure if the toys are doing that well; but it might have been the worst idea that they could ever think of.

It's like turning Golgo 13 into a TV show for kids.

NO! WRONG! DENIED! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Do you know how much of a WASTE that would be? Time Resets=Worst Endings EVER.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Var

The future is a commodity. People destroys each other's futures everyday to further their own ambitions (and futures). The future is as much a commodity as money is.

C.C. took hundreds of futures in a selfish desire to have no future. Do you notice how retarded that sounds?

How is her being given everything, paying for what she did?

CC would be given everything, but she would understand that what she is given, is not for her to keep; it would be for her to give away to those who need it.

There will always be people who need help. People who were just like CC when she was a slave girl. CC can given THEM a future.

And this time, CC will learn to not give them Geass.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Stretch5920

I don't think Kallen would break. She just wants the truth and if the truth is just friends, then I think she will accept it. She's not Rolo.

Well, I should have probably said that her getting turned down would likely not stop her at her level of affection just like that. For that reason, that line does not make sense. You do not turn someone down by telling them you love them, even if its a lie, it would likely (like with Shirley) be one of uncertainty not of malevolence to just trick the person. Telling a lie to not hurt someone is fine, but that's a pretty large lie to tell someone especially if you cannot back it up.

Originally Posted by Stretch5920

best scenario would be what Village Idiot said and it's Kallen telling him to prove that he loves her not with words, but with actions

I'd call it the most logical scenario since Lelouch has always lied with words, if she wants to find the real Lelouch she'd need actions. Remember, her conversations with Nunally about Lelouch were not about what he said, but what he did.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Var

You're inverting an idea of survival instinct to justify a desire to die? What? Dieing is not an instinct, it is a desire. No entity instictually wants to die, they do however instinctually want to survive. That is fact of life. Dragging people down to hell, who had no desire to die, just because you did, is not the same as killing people in order to survive.

A person who takes the future of one person really does not deserve to themselves have a future, taking it of hundreds of people just digs a deeper hole.

In C.C's case I personally would call it instict. And what is instict? A great desire for something... . Live instict only works, if you'r afraid of dead. As being immortal and living + suffering for centuries, desire to die becomes instict.
This is my opinion and result of rational thinking.

And as said, C.C did not take the lives, she was merely a factor to that loss. It wasn't inevitable. Because things turned out like this, doesn't mean she was at fault. She can't forecast the future!

What you'r implying is that, if you were to toss a rock for 2 meters, would make you quilty for a murder that happens after 2years. Just because trowing the rock caused the beginning of the very process.
Maybe C.C was aware that spredding the curse would result into this, but that wasn't inevitable. Eitherway I doupt C.C wanted to make every one suffer. She merely wished for her existence to end forever.
In this you gotta either judge her intention or judge her by result of the procces she began even with out knowing the result at all.

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Orga777

NO! WRONG! DENIED! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Do you know how much of a WASTE that would be? Time Resets=Worst Endings EVER.

Okay...It's still better than everyone gets melted into LCL due to Charles' Uso-no-nai-Seikai-Completion-Program.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

CC would be given everything, but she would understand that what she is given, is not for her to keep; it would be for her to give away to those who need it.

There will always be people who need help. People who were just like CC when she was a slave girl. CC can given THEM a future.

And this time, CC will learn to not give them Geass.

You are assuming that the dominatrix C.C. would help people. I do not see that. She has never been portrayed as some benevolent Mother Teresa in this incarnation of herself. She is selfish and cold, that is who she is now.

You're making an unjustifiable leap in logic to say she'll go out and become Mother Teresa to make up for her sins. And again, this is not about her being immortal. Understand our discussion is about C.C. losing her immortality but keeping her memories.

Originally Posted by whiter

In C.C's case I personally would call it instict. And what is instict? A great desire for something... . Live instict only works, if you'r afraid of dead. As being immortal and living + suffering for centuries, desire to die becomes instict.
This is my opinion and result of rational thinking.

So you're telling me that people who, in a rush of hormones and testosterone, kill someone unwittingly to survive (an instinct) is similar to someone openly seeking to be killed and planning it ahead of time? Plotting automatically removes the basis for it being instinctual, and we know C.C. has been plotting her own agenda.

Originally Posted by whiter

And as said, C.C did not take the lives, she was merely a factor to that loss. It wasn't inevitable. Because things turned out like this, doesn't mean she was at fault. She can't forecast the future!

No. She gave them unbridled power. Any person with half a brain will tell you that 9 out of 10 times that will not end well. Unless you're going to tell me C.C. used a thorough screening process to check who she gave her geass too.

Originally Posted by whiter

What you'r implying is that, if you were to toss a rock for 2 meters, would make you quilty of a murder that happens after 2years. Just because trowing the rock caused the beginning of the very process.
Maybe C.C was aware that spredding the curse would result into this, but that wasn't inevitable. Eitherway I doupt C.C wanted to make every one suffer. She merely wished for her existence to end forever.
In this you gotta either judge her intention or judge her by result of the procces she began even with out knowing the result at all.

No. Throwing a rock is not giving Humans ultimate power, your anology is absolutely terrible. The more appropriate scenario is the one village one gun scenario. Where you give one person a gun to protect themselves, while not giving it to everyone else. Do you know what happens in that scenario? The village is wiped out.