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Old 2010-08-28, 19:52   Link #3881
Archon_Wing
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In fact, in SC1, almost any non-standard build is called cheese.
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Old 2010-08-28, 19:55   Link #3882
Klashikari
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Found it:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese

Looks like my memories didn't fail that much. And yeah, the term was misused to the point it doesn't really make much sense for SCI.
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Old 2010-08-28, 19:58   Link #3883
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Found it:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese

Looks like my memories didn't fail that much. And yeah, the term was misused to the point it doesn't really make much sense for SCI.
Well everyone is going to expect a Reaper Rush, Ling Rush, or a Gate Rush, so the surprise of expecting it, and if you scouted early, you will catch a quick sight of a possible chance this rush might be executed. So after reading that wiki link on "Cheese" I guess many people are just misunderstand it in SC2 at the moment?
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Old 2010-08-28, 20:00   Link #3884
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Found it:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese

Looks like my memories didn't fail that much. And yeah, the term was misused to the point it doesn't really make much sense for SCI.
I'm strongly skeptical of this since other gaming circles have used this term pre-sc, and it most definitely didn't originate from Starcraft. It probably isn't of Korean origin, though it could have played a role

I'll quote that article's discussion page:

Quote:
I agree, I believe the origin is incorrect. I know as early as 16 years ago far before starcraft was even invented cheese was a gaming phrase. Primal Rage released in 1994 would actually display a Swiss Cheese icon above you when you did "cheap" moves and then prevent you from continuing the cheesy move.
Plus when the article contains shit like this:
Quote:
The strategy is characterized by, as opposed to a simple bunker rush, a practically unbeatable combination of most of the Terran's SCVs and a very quickly assembled group of marines. Because both Protoss and Zerg basic units are unranged, SCVs can effectively prevent the ranged marines from being destroyed by obstructing the path between the units, giving the marines a tremendous (and thus unfair) edge.
I can't help but detect some sarcasm, lol.
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Old 2010-08-28, 21:08   Link #3885
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
actually, mech ball don't use tanks, they use thor, vikings and shit loads of SCV as far as I know to have max effectiveness; because people say tank's splash does more harm than good for the mech army, just canon bomb with thor if you need AOE.

I would tell any one new to SC2 and want to play terran to learn to MM ball, it's more easier to do than most other plans.
Ehhh I don't know.

I usually used MMM but now I've switched to mostly mech.

Mainly because I lose quite a bit of guys to those High Templars when it comes to Protoss. That and people are getting smarter to dealing with those drop attacks

With mechs, they can withstand it better.

At the moment I'm trying out with marines backed by tanks. This is later followed by Thors and tanks with Vikings. Vikings can fill the marines' role and aren't vulnerable to psi attacks. Tanks seem pretty decent even when not in siege mode.
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Old 2010-08-28, 21:23   Link #3886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post

At the moment I'm trying out with marines backed by tanks. This is later followed by Thors and tanks with Vikings. Vikings can fill the marines' role and aren't vulnerable to psi attacks. Tanks seem pretty decent even when not in siege mode.
Vikings take quite a beating from Stalkers though. I rarely use Vikings against a Protoss player. I only use them if I know Colossi are coming or if I feel like harassing an expansion.
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Old 2010-08-28, 21:53   Link #3887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Well everyone is going to expect a Reaper Rush, Ling Rush, or a Gate Rush, so the surprise of expecting it, and if you scouted early, you will catch a quick sight of a possible chance this rush might be executed. So after reading that wiki link on "Cheese" I guess many people are just misunderstand it in SC2 at the moment?
I've read once or twice that some call it "cheese" because it often come with "whine"

probably not that relevant, but interesting nonetheless
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Old 2010-08-28, 22:15   Link #3888
Alaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
actually, mech ball don't use tanks, they use thor, vikings and shit loads of SCV as far as I know to have max effectiveness; because people say tank's splash does more harm than good for the mech army, just canon bomb with thor if you need AOE.
.
You know that Thor's ability is a single target ability in the multiplayer, right? Mech ball without tanks is just asking for Marauder, Lings, Zealots to kill them.

Regarding Marauders, they are very (read: extremely) strong against gateway units, period. But it's not unbeatable, with a good unit combination, timing, and most importantly micro/macro/mechanic, Protoss have a very good chance against mass marauders.

For HTs and Ghosts, it comes down to micro and unit positioning. EMP eat HTs but at the same time, EMP does nothing if the storms are already casted. So it come downs who has better positioning, better micro, and higher apm; which is fun for me to watch or to play.

On a sidenote, regarding MLG's final result:

Spoiler for MLG Result:
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Last edited by Alaya; 2010-08-28 at 22:29.
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Old 2010-08-28, 22:45   Link #3889
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
You know that Thor's ability is a single target ability in the multiplayer, right? Mech ball without tanks is just asking for Marauder, Lings, Zealots to kill them.
I don't get why they changed the singleplayer's special ability to single target.. Well if you think about it, that does make sense, because of the fact that if they added the singleplayer's special ability of AOE, then its basically GG.

Quote:
Regarding Marauders, they are very (read: extremely) strong against gateway units, period. But it's not unbeatable, with a good unit combination, timing, and most importantly micro/macro/mechanic, Protoss have a very good chance against mass marauders.
With gateway units, all you have to do is mass Zealots right? The Warp Stalkers are basically useless with a vast number of Marauders, but low number of Marines, but a Zealot is good against both of them overall.

Quote:
On a sidenote, regarding MLG's final result:

Spoiler for MLG Result:
Why is there no love for the Zerg
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Old 2010-08-29, 00:46   Link #3890
Who
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Pro tip: Don't get overconfident in 4v4 just because one person got dropped from the game.

Actually, I think we would've won that if I hadn't proxied my double rax outside the guy who got dropped.
And against diamonds/plats, too.
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Old 2010-08-29, 01:03   Link #3891
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who View Post
Pro tip: Don't get overconfident in 4v4 just because one person got dropped from the game.

Actually, I think we would've won that if I hadn't proxied my double rax outside the guy who got dropped.
And against diamonds/plats, too.
I was underconfident in a 2v2 match I just had recently (Archon_Wing, I think you would remember this match )

But somehow we still pulled the fight off even if we were Reaper + Zergling rushed.

(I would post the match, once I get Archon_Wing's permission)
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Old 2010-08-29, 01:05   Link #3892
Archon_Wing
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Sure, whatever. =p
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Old 2010-08-29, 01:10   Link #3893
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Sure, whatever. =p
Permission granted

Summary: This match involved our opponents using both "Reapers, and Zergling Rush" and me and Archon_Wing's unique counter to it (Near the end, even if Teal did not leave, we still could have won)

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/6...-monlyth-ridge

(Sorry Archon_Wing for being the unfortunate first target for this scary rush)

(Also Archon_Wing, those other matches we played, I was getting kinda sleepy )

The reason I posted this or wanted to, was because I was wondering where exactly our opponents went wrong with this match.
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Last edited by Hooves; 2010-08-29 at 01:23.
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Old 2010-08-29, 02:27   Link #3894
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Been winning so many 2v2 games with a simple zealot maruader rush.
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Old 2010-08-29, 04:02   Link #3895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
With gateway units, all you have to do is mass Zealots right? The Warp Stalkers are basically useless with a vast number of Marauders, but low number of Marines, but a Zealot is good against both of them overall.
Where did you get the idea that Zealots (with or without charge) are good against Marauders (with shells)?
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Old 2010-08-29, 04:06   Link #3896
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Where did you get the idea that Zealots (with or without charge) are good against Marauders (with shells)?
Since I was thinking there will be a lot more Zealots then the Marauders can handle that unless the player was a Micro genius, that he cannot slow them all?
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Old 2010-08-29, 04:55   Link #3897
Sephi
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Marrauder > Every gateway unit. It's called micro, shoot run, shoot run and laugh at the zealots. Because they are useless after charging in and dying. And there is another factor, marrauders are ranged, while zealots are melee, they will be clumped up unable to attack if you got really large numbers, ofcourse you can try to catch them in a good position like a surround, but i still think marrauders can win due to not all zealots being able to attack while marrauders in the middle can still shoot at zealots. Same story with marines, they are really deadly in large numbers
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Old 2010-08-29, 05:17   Link #3898
Alaya
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With or without micro, Marauders eat Gateway units for breakfast (well Zealots with leg might beat mass marauders if the terran player does not micro them)... What is needed to win against MM ball for Toss is higher tier units for support, good positioning and constant macroing (since toss can reinforce their units faster than most T with warpgates).
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Old 2010-08-29, 09:11   Link #3899
gummybear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
You know that Thor's ability is a single target ability in the multiplayer, right? Mech ball without tanks is just asking for Marauder, Lings, Zealots to kill them.

Regarding Marauders, they are very (read: extremely) strong against gateway units, period. But it's not unbeatable, with a good unit combination, timing, and most importantly micro/macro/mechanic, Protoss have a very good chance against mass marauders.

For HTs and Ghosts, it comes down to micro and unit positioning. EMP eat HTs but at the same time, EMP does nothing if the storms are already casted. So it come downs who has better positioning, better micro, and higher apm; which is fun for me to watch or to play
I don't do a lot of mech ball myself that's why I only take the words of other players

Marauders are good against almost anything ground, hands down. They are cheap, they can tank to some degree and they can do tons hurt just with stimpacks; moreover, they have 6 range!

problem with storm is that even you let them lose, it still doesn't mean you kill the other army. They are not the same SC1 storm where you can whip out a army with just 1 cast. SC2 storm are retarded weak and the area is also retarded small compare to SC1 storm. Normally I just move the units back and let the enemy's melee to take the place of where my army was if I see that the other guy isn't good at controlling.
God I missed SC1 storm, I remember the days I can reduce a fleet of 15+ BC or carriers to 0 with just 1 HT u_u

On the other hand, what use of a few lonely HT in SC2 when the army is dead because they where wipe out due to shield removal?

Quote:
Since I was thinking there will be a lot more Zealots then the Marauders can handle that unless the player was a Micro genius, that he cannot slow them all?
he doesn't have to slow them all, just kill 1 with every wave of shots.
also, zealots are melee, if the marauders are bunch together, only 2 zealots can fit every 180 degrees angle, 2 zealots can't take down a marauder even if they try.
This is not the purpose of zealots in the first place, they are very much like having a lot of zlings as zerg; they are just canon fobbers or meatshields. Remember the South Park movie, the part about "Operation get behind the Blarkies" and where they tied Black people to tanks and planes? Just think about that when it comes to zealots or zlings.

Last edited by gummybear; 2010-08-29 at 09:24.
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Old 2010-08-29, 09:15   Link #3900
Deathkillz
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Marauders + shells are already amazing but + their drugs (stim pack)...yea

Here's something insightful from good o' Husky ^^

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