Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[saw2097]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

the bold.

still waiting on the "2-5 year viralt limit" citation :P

I already gave it, its not my fault you don't won't to go back and check Tigre and Rurick's conversations (volume 3 chapter 3). This just further proves that you don't bother to check your facts.

Like I said before I read volume 13 and you haven't, and in it there is never any talk of Tigre having multiple wives, just one wife and several concubines.

You are not being objective at all, you are just using things that have absolutely nothing to do with issue or the story and have proven you know very little about history.

A little off about Henry is the understatement of the century, Henry the 8th was famous for killing his wives so he could get another one. How you mixed that with him practicing polygamy is beyond me. That and using a biblical figure who may not have even existed (and if he did was dead thousands of years before the Medieval age and was Jewish not European) as proof that polygamy and I quote "goes hand in hand with the Medieval age as Knights and Castles" shows you had one horrible history education.

The Medievel age was several centuries long, polygamy ended right at the start of the age but Knights and Castles lasted throughout the entire age, that is a vast gap from hand in hand and Tigre is centuries into his world's medieval age.

This is all redundant as there is no sign in the entire series that polygamy is still practiced, no one has suggested Tigre should practice polygamy, and the only character so much as mentioned as having practiced it was a mythical figure that lived centuries before the start of the series.

Funny that you claim that my examples are irrelevant yet keep using King Solomon a Christian and Judah figure as proof in spite of the fact that as you said "Christianity has no bearing on this series." But I guess things are only irreverent if you don't like them because they destroy your argument. Also if the whole point of King Solomon was that having multiple wives was a sign of power and that somehow was important to this argument than why do none of the known Kings in the era Tigre lives in have multiple wives, the simple answer is the practice is already disbanded.

You contradict every single one of your arguments.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by saw2097

I already gave it, its not my fault you don't won't to go back and check Tigre and Rurick's conversations.

that's not how a debate works. once you make an argument, you have to support it with proof when called upon. this line wont fly in court, especially when it may amount to speculation/personal interpretation...

Like I said before I read volume 13 and you haven't, and in it there is never any talk of Tigre having multiple wives, just one wife and several concubines.

you read a machine translation, congrats lol. the concept of tigre even being with elen wasn't a thing for the longest time and look what happened. if you want to rule out having multiple wives when it's the basis for this story and even the zhcted lore, the same one tigre is tied to, go right ahead. we shall see what happens i guess *shrugs

You are not being objective at all, you are just using things that have absolutely nothing to do with issue and have proven you know very little about history. A little off about Henry is the understatement of the century, Henry the 8th was famous for killing his wives so he could get another one. How you mixed that with him practicing polygamy is beyond me.

and yet i have provided more evidence of my stance of the subject then you, several times. if i had looked it up and found evidence to the contrary, i would have conceded, but it's not there. do you're research before talking about being objective because you have outright denied the facts i've presented(even shifting goal points with your inclusion of "the late middle ages") while i fully owned up to the henry the 8th one.

This series takes place in late Medievel France and Russia, at that time period they had stopped polygamy all together and the series has given no sign that it is practiced anymore. Notice that not one single character has said Tigre should take multiple wives and there is no character in the series that is practicing polygamy, if that was the route the author was going to take he would set precedent.

again you can't verify at all that this timeline mirrors a certain point within the middle ages 1:1 unless you are the author. this a complete and total grasp. the precedent was set by the author when he chose to base this entire story on the slavic tale, make it the founding lore of zhcted, having the seven queens function in this story as the vanadis, spend volume after volume eluding to tigre being a descendant of this king, elude to him becoming a king, and having him build a harem consisting of the same vanadis that function as the seven queens in terms of there role in the story(one of which wants to become a queen at all costs, another wants to create an ideal nation as a ruler). the fact that the option hasn't come up yet in the traditional sense of having more then one wife doesn't make all of this go away. the option of having concubines wasn't established in the first volume, and look what happened...

but i'll end here for the night with this; valentina isn't going to settle with being a concubine when/if tigre gets the zhcted throne. to even suggest otherwise is blatantly ignoring her characterization up to this point.

good night

edit- again the links i provided clearly show that polygamy was still present throughout the middle ages. you continue to fail to cite proof otherwise while blatantly ignoring evidence that says otherwise. such behavior is beneath you.

the king solomon point had nothing to do with christianity, as if you re-read the quote in question you will see it was about the standard of having more then one wife as a king being like king solomon in the early middle ages up until the 6th century at the rise of the roman catholic church, the same church that doesn't exist in this story. the fact that you still dont get that means that i'm wasting my time here.

[saw2097]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

again you can't verify at all that this timeline mirrors a certain point within the middle ages 1:1 unless you are the author. this a complete and total grasp. the precedent was set by the author when he chose to base this entire story on the slavic tale, make it the founding lore of zhcted, having the seven queens function in this story as the vanadis, spend volume after volume eluding to tigre being a descendant of this king, elude to him becoming a king, and having him build a harem consisting of the same vanadis that function as the seven queens in terms of there role in the story(one of which wants to become a queen at all costs, another wants to create an ideal nation as a ruler). the fact that the option hasn't come up yet in the traditional sense of having more then one wife doesn't make all of this go away. the option of having concubines wasn't established in the first volume, and look what happened...

but i'll end here for the night with this; valentina isn't going to settle with being a concubine when/if tigre gets the zhcted throne. to even suggest otherwise is blatantly ignoring her characterization up to this point.

good night

The quote comes from volume 3 chapter 3, if you still want to deny its existence than you are making a bigger fool out of yourself.

You just keep contradicting your own argument, you claim that it doesn't exist in any part of the time in the Medieval yet it was you who first brought up the idea of the series existing in some part of the time line and keep using a figure from the Bible despite claiming that Christianity has no part in the story.

So have you got anyway of proving that I am wrong about my translation of volume 13? Go ahead and show it. Maybe the whole thing about Tigre having sex with Ellen was incorrect too along with everything else.

You haven't even read so much as the machine translation and you are ignoring other facts like how marring the Vanadis gets you nothing yet you are trying to act like you know the series better.

Its obvious that you have no real argument. You are running around in circles, bringing up things that have no relevance to the story, ignoring facts, and flat out contradicting yourself. All you have done is show a poor understanding of history, shown that you have forgotten key details in the story, and proven that you don't double check your facts before posting.

Using the original story as proof he will marry them all is foolish as not only does he have love interests beyond the seven but one of the seven from the original story is dead (Sasha).

[KnightShade]

good night saw. agree to disagree

[saw2097]

People who read this, I am going to break my rule of no spoilers just to prove that I am right.

In volume 13:

Spoiler for 13:

Ellen flat out says its unlikely they can get married because while fertile, any children she produces will be illegitimate and therefore can't inherit any title from Tigre and Tigre needs a wife that can do so. She outright says that she will have to be his concubine most likely and she is okay with it as long as he doesn't ignore her.

For the record, yes this would also be an issue even if Tigre were to become King.

The conversation is much longer and gets into more detail, but that is the skinny of it and should get the point across.

Proving that Tigre will probably have only one wife or this would be pointless, so clearly polygamy is no longer practiced at the time.

[DragonOsman]

Tigre is going to become the successor of the Black Dragon King, and I think that once he does so, what Ellen said there will become irrelevant as he'll then be able to marry all seven Vanadis like his predecessor (the Black Dragon King). Also, this series isn't set in the Medieval era but the Slavic era. And for all we know, the Vanadis might not ever lose their respective Viralt after marrying someone like Tigre, a King chosen by the Black Bow, until the time they die. For now this is admittedly speculation, but it does seem likely given the context of the story and the Black Dragon King's legend.

Also, the Vanadis are supposed to be true Princesses. When the original Vanadis married the Black Dragon King, they became real Queens. It's likely that it'll be the same for when Tigre marries the current Vanadis (which he will).

As Ramero has said, we still don't know everything about the lore of the Black Bow or about the lore of the Vanadis and the Viralt, so we should wait for more information. If you don't want to believe what I've said, let's just agree to disagree until the LN provides more info on those legends and/or until the LN is nearing the ending or has ended.

@Kidstandout: Had to use Control+F on Volume 3 Chapter 3, but I found the part Saw was talking about:

“Vanadis-sama's predecessor lasted for a short two years. Anyone who lasts more than five years is considered to have lasted a long time. In LeitMeritz, we always follow whatever expedition they may undertake. So long as the soldiers have food and a salary, their morale will not fall.”

It could be taken as being that a Vanadis can still last for longer than 5 years, though, even though it's probably rare. But, again, marrying Tigre might change that given who he is.

[saw2097]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Tigre is going to become the successor of the Black Dragon King, and I think that once he does so, what Ellen said there will become irrelevant as he'll then be able to marry all seven Vanadis like his predecessor (the Black Dragon King). Also, this series isn't set in the Medieval era but the Slavic era. And for all we know, the Vanadis might not ever lose their respective Viralt after marrying someone like Tigre, a King chosen by the Black Bow, until the time they die. For now this is admittedly speculation, but it does seem likely given the context of the story and the Black Dragon King's legend.

Also, the Vanadis are supposed to be true Princesses. When the original Vanadis married the Black Dragon King, they became real Queens. It's likely that it'll be the same for when Tigre marries the current Vanadis (which he will).

As Ramero has said, we still don't know everything about the lore of the Black Bow or about the lore of the Vanadis and the Viralt, so we should wait for more information. If you don't want to believe what I've said, let's just agree to disagree until the LN provides more info on those legends and/or until the LN is nearing the ending or has ended.

@Kidstandout: Had to use Control+F on Volume 3 Chapter 3, but I found the part Saw was talking about:


It could be taken as being that a Vanadis can still last for longer than 5 years, though, even though it's probably rare. But, again, marrying Tigre might change that given who he is.

No story takes place in the Medieval Era, the author outright said it takes place in Medieval Europe.

There is no Slavic era in Western Europe (France and Britain), Slavic refers to a certain ethnic group of people that lived primarily in Eastern Europe and Northern Asia and the Slavic period took place in 500-1000 AD.

If this wasn't going to be an issue in the end than Ellen would never have brought it up like this, she is proud and over possessive, she would never consider the idea that she would be a concubine if there was a way for her to be his wife. The author wouldn't have even have written a huge section of the story on them discussing the issue if it was just going to disappear down the drain. (It makes up a huge scene and there is extensive discussion on the issue, if this isn't going to be important than the author just wasted a lot of time he could have used for something else).

The original seven Vanadis were all born princesses, they were of royalty before they became Vanadis and were the original ones the weapons were meant for, the current seven got that title because they have the Viralt and they completely lose it if the Viralt leaves them (your family gets nothing as well). Also Ellen once showed disgust at the idea of someone getting the position through inheritance or it being permanent (volume 2), some of the Vanadis like that its a position based on personal traits and not bloodline or permanent.

The author also constantly refers to a harem as a single wife and a group of concubines, if multiple wives were still possible in Tigre's era the author would have already set the ground work by having characters suggest multiple wives or have characters around with multiple wives.

Its not really that uncommon in a world like Tigre's, he would marry one person for the position and title but keep the woman he actually loves as a concubine (in this case he would still love the woman he marries and have more than one concubine he loves but same basic principle).

Spoiler for 13:

You all need to read the scene yourselves to really understand why I came to his conclusion, but this is the same scene were Ellen suggests Tigre might become King and she notes that she wouldn't be able to produce legitimate heirs. The scene is very clear why she can't marry him regardless of if he becomes King or remains an Earl.

[Chingaruna517]

Originally Posted by Resuka

So..... Any guesses as to how many volumes are left in the series? ( After volume 14 )

Depending how the author going to end the series, but I don't think Arc Four is the end just yet. Perhaps Arc Seven?

Also, as far as I know about historical relevance of the harem, it is a common thing in especially to the notabilities during middle ages, all for the survival of the House. Also, guys, can we discuss anything about the Showdown Arc/Volume 14?

[saw2097]

Originally Posted by Chingaruna517

Depending how the author going to end the series, but I don't think Arc Four is the end just yet. Perhaps Arc Seven?

Also, as far as I know about historical relevance of the harem, it is a common thing in especially to the notabilities during middle ages, all for the survival of the House. Also, guys, can we discuss anything about the Showdown Arc/Volume 14?

They had mistresses and concubines but not multiple wives after a certain point and the survival of a house requires children of legitimate birth.

We don't know anything about volume 14 yet.

[KnightShade]

So basically @dragonosman its not a hard limit like i said, just an estimation? Not surprised. I just love how the concept of tigre even having concubines wasnt a thing until the eleventh volume and yet now i am to believe there is no way around it when for the longest time the author has tried to make it seem like the very idea of being with a vanadis period was improbable, and that turned out so well lol. New obstacles popping up in v13 means just that to me, a new obstacle. One that can be circumvented should tigre unite brune and zhcted as king of both. A barrier doesnt need to persist to serve a purpose, especially when it comes to fantasy.

Cant wait to see valentina meeting fine, that shoulde be fun.

[DragonOsman]

^Yeah, there should be a way for it to be circumvented just like every other obstacle brought up so far.

As for why the author dedicated such a big part of the novel to that conversation between Elen and Tigre if the point being discussed would become irrelevant later: the author could reference it and tell us why it's not important for Tigre considering who and what he is even though it would be important for anybody else.

Anyway, we really should wait for more info about the two legends of Zhcted Kingdom, the Viralt legend and the King of the Magic Bullet legend, before continuing this, but for now I'll just say this: looking at the context of the series and at the combined legends of the King of the Magic Bullet and the Black Dragon King, it could be said that the Black Bow and the Viralt are the Regalia that choose the true King of Zhcted, meaning that Tigre needs the Viralt and the Black Bow to be on his side (the Viralt may have been added by the most recent King of the Magic Bullet before Tigre, but now that they've been added in, most likely they're needed for Tigre to rise to power), and that's also why I don't think the Viralt will leave the current Vanadis until they die once Tigre has become King, especially if they actively help him become King.

We also need to note that Elen probably doesn't know yet that she and the other Vanadis can marry him and not have to worry about the Viralt leaving them because he's who and what he is. It really seems like most of those legends are lost until someone digs up info on them like Sofy's doing.

But yeah, again, let's drop this discussion until we have more information regarding those two myths/legends. We should change the topic now.

[Ultragunner]

okay, I know this is an absurd thing to ask now, but I literally just finished the anime of this LN (what took me so long I wonder ), and I am quite keen on picking up the light novel.

So how should I proceed now, having watched the anime? Should I start over from vol 1 or from some other volume?

Thank you.

[DragonOsman]

Just start from Volume 1. Please don't start from where the anime left off because you might not understand what's going on. The anime was basically a summary of the first 6 Volumes, which is why I haven't watched it (I read the LN first, and then I heard that about anime and decided to never touch it).

Anyway, I'll say this here again because I apparently edited this part in when Ultragunner made the above post:

We also need to note that Elen probably doesn't know yet that she and the other Vanadis can marry him and not have to worry about the Viralt leaving them because he's who and what he is. It really seems like most of those legends are lost until someone digs up info on them like Sofy's doing.

But, again, let's not talk about this anymore beyond acknowledging this. I want to wait until we have more info about those two legends.

[Ramero]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Tigre is going to become the successor of the Black Dragon King, and I think that once he does so, what Ellen said there will become irrelevant as he'll then be able to marry all seven Vanadis like his predecessor (the Black Dragon King). Also, this series isn't set in the Medieval era but the Slavic era. And for all we know, the Vanadis might not ever lose their respective Viralt after marrying someone like Tigre, a King chosen by the Black Bow, until the time they die. For now this is admittedly speculation, but it does seem likely given the context of the story and the Black Dragon King's legend.

Also, the Vanadis are supposed to be true Princesses. When the original Vanadis married the Black Dragon King, they became real Queens. It's likely that it'll be the same for when Tigre marries the current Vanadis (which he will).

As Ramero has said, we still don't know everything about the lore of the Black Bow or about the lore of the Vanadis and the Viralt, so we should wait for more information. If you don't want to believe what I've said, let's just agree to disagree until the LN provides more info on those legends and/or until the LN is nearing the ending or has ended.

@Kidstandout: Had to use Control+F on Volume 3 Chapter 3, but I found the part Saw was talking about:


It could be taken as being that a Vanadis can still last for longer than 5 years, though, even though it's probably rare. But, again, marrying Tigre might change that given who he is.

Lourie House was the evidence that they are last more than five years for a single Vanadis (Around twenty to thirty years in services for each Vanadises since Lavias serve House Lourie for three generation)

Arc Three still serves it main purpose, to repel the invader from outside Brune which mean either there are one more invasion to Brune or not.

The legends of King of Magic Bullet, Black Dragon King, etc. are still shrouded in mystery which will be revealed throughout the story itself. Right now the connections are unlcear and there are very few evidence about it.

@Ultragunner:
It is best to read fresh from Volume 1

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, the legends are still shrouded in mystery and it's even to the point that the characters themselves don't know much about them. Including Elen (dun-dun-dun~). Sofy is probably the only one, other than maybe Valentina who seems to know more than she's letting on, who knows more about the lore of the King of the Magic Bullet. Sofy is currently researching that lore, after all.

[Ramero]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah, the legends are still shrouded in mystery and it's even to the point that the characters themselves don't know much about them. Including Elen (dun-dun-dun~). Sofy is probably the only one, other than maybe Valentina who seems to know more than she's letting on, who knows more about the lore of the King of the Magic Bullet. Sofy is currently researching that lore, after all.

Currently there are two person that was actively searches about it, Sofy and Badouin. Badouin seeks about the Origin of Brune and connections to Tigre which include Origin of Ganelon while Sofy are trying to seek the conenctions of his Black Bow to King of Magic Bullet, she has yet connect it to Black Dragon King Legend itself.

[DragonOsman]

She hasn't managed to make that connection yet, yes, but at least she's on the right track. Badouin could be if Brune and Zhcted were truly one country originally. But Valentina does seem to know more than she lets on, so she might know something more about those legends than everyone else.

[Dragon_Slayer_X]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

okay, I know this is an absurd thing to ask now, but I literally just finished the anime of this LN (what took me so long I wonder ), and I am quite keen on picking up the light novel.

So how should I proceed now, having watched the anime? Should I start over from vol 1 or from some other volume?

Thank you.

It's better to start from Volume 1. Since you finished the summarized version aka the anime you will get through Volume 1-5 very quickly. The anime rushed things and out important details so you may get confused trying to understand what's going on in later volumes.

[Chingaruna517]

@Ultragunner:
Like everyone says, you need to reread the first volume first because there are some stories are not covered in anime counterpart of Arc One.

Right now we're now in the climax of Arc Three (and possibly Arc Four).

[Ramero]

Well, i could think that this is the Last Arc for Arc Three since there are no further invasions to Brune after Muozinel attacks. I think Moonlight Knights could be disbanded again after this or when the Zhcted Civil War triggers the Moonlight Knights will serve to quell Zhcted Civil War.