Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Reckoner]

@ Kaijio

I threw a post a couple pages back to in case you missed it.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

My opinion didn't exactly change, but I carefully watched these episodes several times: I'm still not entirely sold by that ending, but despite my disappointment, it fared quite well anyway.

My main gripe with that resolution is how everything came to Madoka circumventing the system with her wish, despite we were basically told many times that system (MG/Witches and wishes) is no good.
This is a scenario that many of us were aware it could happen, but I personally am not so fond of it because it is just ignoring every hardship we were shown, yet it doesn't really solve "everything". Of course, I didn't expect a full happy/gloom ending, but from my perspective, I was expecting Madoka trying to make a major revolution, instead of cutting the "bad end" part of the MG contract.

Actually Homura was the reason Madoka became so powerful. The reason Madoka could circumvent the system was because of all her struggles through these timelines. The timelines also served to inform us all the approaches taken and how they failed because the system pretty much doomed them to failure from the start. It showed us there wasn't really another way. If Madoka made it so everyone was alive including herself in the end, and everyone was happy and laughing, it would've taken any sense of loss or struggle from the story.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Naturally, this clause is definitely what screws MG the most in the end. However, to me, the system itself is still a problem as MG are still left to a destiny of hunting down the demon beasts or die while trying (or being mercy killed by Madoka).
To be honest, whilst Madoka's wish was worded in a very interesting way, just like Homura's, the execution of the wish is rather surprising: she indeed wanted to eradicate witches before they are born, however, can we really consider that the girls didn't have any regrets before passing away?
Madoka is definitely taking care of the curse they were bearing, but to generate a curse, MG are going through despair and whatnot. Even though it doesn't lurk their soulgem at that very moment, it isn't like Madoka actually made their life completely void of regrets (otherwise, it would lead to a paradox: why would they still disappear or going to have a curse if their despair were preempted anyway?)
In that regard, the whole deal with the MG being saved by Madoka isn't completely true: indeed, they are no longer destined to turn into witches, but it isn't like Madoka could take the burden of everything happening to all of them, otherwise they wouldn't even start becoming Witches to begin.

Well I look at this way. At first Madoka, when she met Mami, believed that magical girls were doing something quite noble, defending their planet from these entities. However when one learns both that magical girls turn into witches and that Kyube's goal is something of almost no concern to us humans (At the moment), you question what you are even fighting for in the first place. The system was originally setup as you pay with your life for a miracle in exchange. It wasn't very noble at all, and this wasn't what Madoka envisioned being a mahou shoujo was about.

That is why the differences she made in the new system are so profound. Not only do mahou shoujos not turn into witches, they're mercy killed so as to not have a fate worst than death, the girls actually have a reason to fight, as these entities are something wreaking havoc that needs to be taken care of, while they themselves are not the source of the problem. It's the noble role she originally desired to have. At the same time, Kyube still gets his part of deal, so everyone's happy. It was the best solution and served to make mahou shoujos a beacon of hope really.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

In fact, the system didn't really change, it is just that solution lead to a change to the world, since Witches actually are still part of the system, yet are automatically disposed by GOD!Madoka, thus the demon beasts lurking around.
Basically the system is still present: the cold equilibrum is still present, as MG will either die in battle, run out of magic/despair before being "saved by Madoka". Which leads to the question: is a miracle worth for that kind of fate?

Well it really is like the role of a soldier who has no hopes of returning to a peaceful life. They take up the role of a noble person defending everyone from havoc, and while they often don't have the greatest end, they still can be proud of what they do. That makes all the difference in this system while still serving the role of deconstruction, showing how being a mahou shoujo isn't all its cracked up to be, though its admirable.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Honestly speaking, bittersweet or not, this ending isn't exactly "conclusive" to me: I didn't expect a complete happy ending with the whole enthropy stuff fixed at the same time or whatnot.
However, the solution itself was basically against everything that was portrayed so far (why would Kyuubey grants Madoka's wish to begin with? Homura's wish was sort of "okay", but why Madoka's?). Worse, I still believe that it practically nullified Homura's efforts into oblivious.
I do not claim it doesn't answer to many issues at hand. However, it is just difficult for me to swallow it: as explained by Kaijo, Kanon, Meotwister etc, having Madoka fixing the day this way was definitely a DEM (or rather "close" in my books), leading to a not so fully satisfying note.

Sorry, but I will continue to disagree with anyone who portrays this as a DEM. It is simply not so. A Deus ex machina requires an unexpected, sort of out of no where solution to an insoluble problem. Madoka's abilities and powers were strongly hinted at throughout the show, with Kyube even proclaiming she could change the laws of physics itself. This coupled iwth the fact tha there was a huge leadup to her eventual contracting shows this was not out of nowhere, and wa sinf act very natural/logical conclusion.

Madoka's wish was made because Madoka saw no better way out of everything. It was the only potential solution to solve the entire problem pretty much, at the cost of her sacrifice of course. It was a noble decision, something we should respect. She took the only available choice a this point for everyone's happiness.

As for why Kyube let Madoka make her wish, to me it seemed more like the way in the process of contract already, so it wasn't like he could stop her from making the wish. The process was already initiated.

You're free to dislike it, but I ask that people not mischaracterize the ending as DEM.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Furthermore, I'm still extremely bugged by the lack of lore regarding the system in general: who came first? MG or incubators? Episode 12 enforced yet again the idea that incubators were the ones behind that, yet if it is really the truth, I really question the fact they didn't try to toy things themselves with their wish machine.
This also lead to the question: what/who was Walpurgis night? A recollection of all witches? A phenomenom?
There were only convenient "mentions" by Homura and Kyoko, but nothing past that, and as mentioned by other posters: since WN doesn't need a barrier, how come humans aren't aware of this?

While it surely would have been interesting, this wasn't all that relevant to the main narrative of the story. Walprugis night was a powerful witch, what more need be said?

Kyube already explained his race found a way to battle entropy and hence they created the system. Presumably incubators came first, but this could just be chicken and the egg really.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

To begin with, is it okay for incubators to let such bombtastic threat for their cattle? There wasn't any mention if incubators had other worlds as farm site (since there is no indication that there aren't other planets with sentient and emotional beings for this lore), and Kyuubey was portrayed as quite persistent regarding Madoka, so it is definitely an opportunity he didn't want to lose (proved by his approval for Homura's wish).

Well Kyube knew Madoka was powerful and knew that eventually he could corner her into contracting because the situation would give her no other choice. I'm sure he would have been fine no matter what happened.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That may be the only things I would say that are "plot holes" or rather lore that wasn't covered, but they are particularly minor considering the context and what the series tried to achieve. Still, noteworthy to mention, imho.

Fair enough.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We don't need hyperbole, Syn. Of course I don't expect her to have meta-knowlege of the plot... I do expect her to add 1+1. No matter how grief stricken, your math skills don't suddenly just leave you, do they? Do you stop breathing? Do you forever shut down your brain and never have a more complex thought then eat, sleep, and poop?

Tell me, what do you think of a character that is 14 years old, has been through school... and can't add 1+1?

Sorry, but you're wrong. Different people are different, and teenage girls are about the least reliable and emotionally-stable people on Earth. I can't believe you're actually arguing this.

Let me tell you a little story. This is a true story that happened fairly recently, and it should illustrate to you very well the fact that people can and do often lose all their wits and go totally batshit insane when torn apart by grief.

My girlfriend's best friend whom she had known for seven years recently was struck by tragedy. Her father died from a stroke.

So my girlfriend invited her friend to come stay with us, and we helped her the best we could. Cheered her up. Helped her with all the paperwork, fixing her financial aid, getting her own cell phone so she could still have a phone after her dad's family plan lapsed. We did all of this to help her--including me, who only knows her by proxy through my girlfriend, lent her three hundred dollars to help with the various after-death expenses. Eventually, this friend had to go back to college up at Davis.

Instead of saying our goodbyes, she just sneaks away one morning while we're asleep. No word, no call, nothing. Takes her stuff and runs. Later on my girlfriend gets a text message from her--on the phone we fucking bought her--telling her that she doesn't feel my girlfriend cares about her, that she doesn't want to be her friend anymore. That we weren't good to her, that we didn't help her with her grief.

My girlfriend's best friend of seven years cut her off, un-fucking-friended her, because she couldn't "share in her grief." Took the fucking money and ran--after all the physical, practical and financial assistance we gave her, this girl threw an entire seven-year friendship away because my girlfriend wasn't terribly saddened by the death of a man she barely fucking knew.

So yeah. Grief can do FUCKED UP SHIT to your head. After Mami's death I was quite frankly shocked Madoka even remembered her own name.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Giving magic to women probably at least attempted to restore the balance, since they could wish for something, and then have power to achieve other things.

Yeah, but there's a pretty negative implication to this too: How inferior are women if they needed magic to realize all these big achievements? Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, etc... In the end they weren't the great women we thought they were, as they only got to where they got with the power and wishes granted by the QBs.

I wonder what Gen was thinking when he came out with this... concept? Then again, maybe he just didn't think too much about, much like with Homura's time travel abilities, or the entropy BS.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

You can't expect the protagonist of a story to have meta-knowledge of the plot!

Of course you can! My hindsight > them duh.

[synaesthetic]

Knowing Kyubey's love of prevarication, it's entirely possible he just made all this shit up to demoralize Homura and influence Madoka. It would make practical sense from his perspective, since Homura is powerful and would become a powerful witch--if he could force Homura to give into grief, Madoka would have no choice but to contract and kill both witch!Homura and Walpurgis Night, and without Homura, Madoka would have become a witch as well. Kyubey would have won--except Madoka Took A Third Option and became a Reality Warper, due to Homura's repeated time travel amplifying Madoka's powers to godlike levels.

Kyubey is the epitome of an Unreliable Narrator, so we can't trust anything he says, really.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Knowing Kyubey's love of prevarication, it's entirely possible he just made all this shit up to demoralize Homura and influence Madoka. It would make practical sense from his perspective, since Homura is powerful and would become a powerful witch--if he could force Homura to give into grief, Madoka would have no choice but to contract and kill both witch!Homura and Walpurgis Night, and without Homura, Madoka would have become a witch as well. Kyubey would have won--except Madoka Took A Third Option and became a Reality Warper, due to Homura's repeated time travel amplifying Madoka's powers to godlike levels.

Kyubey is the epitome of an Unreliable Narrator, so we can't trust anything he says, really.

Makes sense. If you are an advanced alien, they have to take your word for it. Kinda like the middle ages where the people who were literate held extreme power over those that don't. There's no way for them to question you; you dictate what they hear, and can say whatever you want.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Actually Homura was the reason Madoka became so powerful. The reason Madoka could circumvent the system was because of all her struggles through these timelines. The timelines also served to inform us all the approaches taken and how they failed because the system pretty much doomed them to failure from the start. It showed us there wasn't really another way. If Madoka made it so everyone was alive including herself in the end, and everyone was happy and laughing, it would've taken any sense of loss or struggle from the story.

To be honest, I really wonder if it wasn't Kyuubey's attempt to shake off Homura's devotion with his theory. Of course, I won't start going with "no evidence" stance, but I can't help but have little to no faith in Kyuybey's words at this point, especially that at that very scene, he has reason to deceive Homura.

I also have no problem to see that the system is actually the core issue. I was actually part of the group mentioning that problem, while others were focalizing on Kyuubey's speech about entropy.
This is all the more the reason that I was expecting a full dismantling over the system, instead of changing a single line.

Well I look at this way. At first Madoka, when she met Mami, believed that magical girls were doing something quite noble, defending their planet from these entities. However when one learns both that magical girls turn into witches and that Kyube's goal is something of almost no concern to us humans (At the moment), you question what you are even fighting for in the first place. The system was originally setup as you pay with your life for a miracle in exchange. It wasn't very noble at all, and this wasn't what Madoka envisioned being a mahou shoujo was about.

That is why the differences she made in the new system are so profound. Not only do mahou shoujos not turn into witches, they're mercy killed so as to not have a fate worst than death, the girls actually have a reason to fight, as these entities are something wreaking havoc that needs to be taken care of, while they themselves are not the source of the problem. It's the noble role she originally desired to have. At the same time, Kyube still gets his part of deal, so everyone's happy. It was the best solution and served to make mahou shoujos a beacon of hope really.

I can't say it is any more noble than before what Madoka has learned with Mami and all. Actually, the system is actually what Madoka and Sayaka were imagining before learning the ugly truth regarding SG and Witches.

At this point, the miracle is part of the deal and required to "hire" new MG. And the system itself doesn't really do anything regarding the nature of the girls afterwards (they are still "flesh robots" after all).
While I can see how it was quite powerful with Madoka's selfless sacrifice, the system itself is by no mean noble as how it was left, even after the change Madoka has performed.

Sorry, but I will continue to disagree with anyone who portrays this as a DEM. It is simply not so. A Deus ex machina requires an unexpected, sort of out of no where solution to an insoluble problem. Madoka's abilities and powers were strongly hinted at throughout the show, with Kyube even proclaiming she could change the laws of physics itself. This coupled iwth the fact tha there was a huge leadup to her eventual contracting shows this was not out of nowhere, and wa sinf act very natural/logical conclusion.

Madoka's wish was made because Madoka saw no better way out of everything. It was the only potential solution to solve the entire problem pretty much, at the cost of her sacrifice of course. It was a noble decision, something we should respect. She took the only available choice a this point for everyone's happiness.

As for why Kyube let Madoka make her wish, to me it seemed more like the way in the process of contract already, so it wasn't like he could stop her from making the wish. The process was already initiated.

You're free to dislike it, but I ask that people not mischaracterize the ending as DEM.

This is also the reason why I'm not so prone to call it a true DEM. I used the term as a way to convey how I felt the ending.
Indeed, Madoka was definitely described as a powerhouse by Kyuubey. The problem itself is that the situation was actually "insoluble" if used the way it is, and I personally think there was some foul "loophole": again, i'm still dumbfounded that Kyuubey let Madoka's wish going through. Which is why I was questioning the wish machine itself, because at this point, I would love to have a full description from Urobuchi.
Again, if the wishes were granted by the MG themselves, the wish Madoka has done was by far a dwarf one compared to what she can do (since she has the power to bend space and time).

Therefore, I'm not arguing that she is overpowered. I'm actually not so good with how they made Madoka using this potential.
Which leaves again the little problem regarding the limits of the wishes, and what guarantees Kyuubey that no MG will starting to put his plan into jeopardy with "no more witches!".

I have no problem in the wish he granted to Homura, since it would serve his agenda in order to salvage the possibility to "harvest" madoka. However, letting Madoka wishing this way was basically a self destruction move, which is really difficult to swallow.

While it surely would have been interesting, this wasn't all that relevant to the main narrative of the story. Walprugis night was a powerful witch, what more need be said?

Kyube already explained his race found a way to battle entropy and hence they created the system. Presumably incubators came first, but this could just be chicken and the egg really.

You may believe it is not relevant, but it put some issues regarding the consistency of the lore as a whole. I mean, you don't throw enemies to the protagonists without having their motives, origins etc, in any story, correct?
I do not expect all the details to be explained, but at this point, I really think that it wouldn't hurt to have some lore regarding WN, especially the various indirect comments we got about her.
The only "clues" we got is the name and the fact we didn't see a girl after she was erased, so leading to a "phenomenom/mass of witches" speculation.

Well Kyube knew Madoka was powerful and knew that eventually he could corner her into contracting because the situation would give her no other choice. I'm sure he would have been fine no matter what happened.

First timeline proves that Madoka isn't confirmed to be almighty against WN, and Kyuubey isn't time traveling, therefore he doesn't know that Madoka grows stronger.
Ergo, Kyuubey has no real idea the full potential of Madoka, which is proved again in timeline 4, where he expressed his surprise that Madoka could defeat WN in a single shot.

Hence, he is unaware if she could "really" defeat WN, and having such big bad boss lurking around is basically very bad for his business.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yeah, but there's a pretty negative implication to this too: How inferior are women if they needed magic to realize all these big achievements? Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, etc... In the end they weren't the great women we thought they were, as they only got to where they got with the power and wishes granted by the QBs.

I think they're still great. Perhaps even greater because of all the suffering they had to endured and ultimately expiring as witches consumed with grief destroying the world they helped build.

Remember this, the world wouldn't have even gotten out of the stone-age (in this story) without them. Even though they had to borrow powers to do it, the achievement is still paid for dearly.

[Tom Bombadil]

I don't know why people are arguing wishing Mami back in ep 4 or stuff like that.

It is clear that after episode 3, the question posed in front of the girls was “is it worthy it to risk your life for a wish". The story did an excellent job in providing two possible answers: one in Sayaka who chose yes and regret it later, and Madoka who hesitates because she is living a very happy life so no such wish is really necessary for her.

Apparently, Madoka going "Sure, I'll just wish Mami back alive so both our heads will be bitten off in another fight" is good idea. Oh, well.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I think they're still great. Perhaps even greater because of all the suffering they had to endured and ultimately expiring as witches consumed with grief destroying the world they helped build.

Remember this, the world wouldn't have even gotten out of the stone-age (in this story) without them. Even though they had to borrow powers to do it, the achievement is still paid for dearly.

Only according to Kyubey, and I think he was lying to push Homura towards grief (and turning into a witch).

Regarding Madoka's wish, I don't think Kyubey can actually refuse a wish once the contract begins. If he had the ability to refuse a wish, he would have refused that one to be sure.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yeah, but there's a pretty negative implication to this too: How inferior are women if they needed magic to realize all these big achievements? Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, etc... In the end they weren't the great women we thought they were, as they only got to where they got with the power and wishes granted by the QBs.

I wonder what Gen was thinking when he came out with this... concept? Then again, maybe he just didn't think too much about, much like with Homura's time travel abilities, or the entropy BS.

A better question is to ask yourself, what if men had the magical power instead of women? I don't know about you, but even without magic (that we know of), men in our universe have unleashed some terrible things. I can't make the claim that women are any better, or would do any better, but I don't see magic mattering, or even inferior vs superior comments. I see male oppression, and women seizing an opportunity to advance beyond it.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Only according to Kyubey, and I think he was lying to push Homura towards grief (and turning into a witch).

QB is a manipulative bastard but I don't think he has outright told any lie. Because of that, I'm inclined to take what he said about humanity remaining in the stone-age as true for this story-world.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I think they're still great. Perhaps even greater because of all the suffering they had to endured and ultimately expiring as witches consumed with grief destroying the world they helped build.

Remember this, the world wouldn't have even gotten out of the stone-age (in this story) without them. Even though they had to borrow powers to do it, the achievement is still paid for dearly.

Look at this way. In our world, men have achieved great things troughout history, and there are a handful of women that have been on par with these men. But in Gen's world these women could only do this because they got magic.

So you see, however you look at it, it is demeaning. It would be different if we were told the guys were also using magic, but that's not the case.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

it wasn't brought up in the show itself. And you refuse to accept that.

But you're wrong. I do accept that. I just consider her actions to be more important than her thoughts. Once it was shown she no longer wanted to make a wish, it didn't matter if she thought about that wish in particular or not.

In fact, since Kyube specifically approached Madoka, someone who didn't know what to wish for at all, pretty much negates this.

No it doesn't. Not completely anyway. She had very high potential. So Kyubei judge she was worth the risk to contact (not contract, yet) her, even if she didn't appear to have anything pressing she might wish for. And yes, this includes the first 3 timelines where Homura didn't interfere with the first meeting between Madoka and Kyubei.

And this whole bit is negated because Sayaka did talk to them about making a wish to benefit someone other than herself. What were the responses? "Be careful about how you phrase it." They didn't attempt to talk her out of it, really, just let her know how dangerous it could be.

Because, in the end, Sayaka's wish was much like Kyoko's. Nothing Kyubei hadn't seen before or need to be extra concerned about. Besides, they had been asked to think about something for themselves already in ep2. While Sayaka's thoughts eventually went to Kyosuke, Madoka was still thinking about getting something for herself. We do not need to hear every thought in Madoka's head. This applies to wishing for Mami's ressurection.

Whatever floats your boat and allows you to rationalize things that aren't stated.

But recognize that they aren't stated, and that quite a few people have issues with the fact that very few things are stated.

So, make up all the theories that you like, that allow you to connect the dots. I'm pretty sure that's what Gen is counting on, for his fans to rationalize every potential issue away so he doesn't have to attempt to explain things himself. You're welcome to rationalize, but understand not everyone is going to agree to do the same.

So tell me then, when does "thinking about the show" stop and "rationalizing" begins? Are you the one that gets to draw the line? So explaining what are holes is "thinking about the show" while explaining how the holes are covered (or can be covered) is "rationalizing"?
I would point I'm doing what you were up until you got banned in March. However, I hated your attitude during that time, so I don't want to be acused of doing the same thing. But if you think you were right to do as you did then, you should let me have a go at it too, right?

Remember Homura and her killings of Kyube?

And remember how killing him is good for slowing him down as well? Don't forget the issue was more complex than that. And since that isn't relevant to the ep12 discussion, you should drop it now.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

My girlfriend's best friend of seven years cut her off, un-fucking-friended her, because she couldn't "share in her grief."
So yeah. Grief can do FUCKED UP SHIT to your head. After Mami's death I was quite frankly shocked Madoka even remembered her own name.

Sad to hear what happened, but I perk up whenever I hear situations like this. When you have someone accusing the characters of not "acting realistically" then someone else steps in with an example of people acting just like that in real life. Just goes to show the creators knew what they were doing and the accusers simply didn't have that life experience.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Knowing Kyubey's love of prevarication, it's entirely possible he just made all this shit up to demoralize Homura and influence Madoka.

Much as I love to think of Kyubei as being a liar, he did tell the truth about Madoka's power and that the Incubators had been messing with humanity for a long time, as we saw. That just makes it all the worse though, because he knows how to use the truth to manipulate people. Because truth is something that has authority and cannot be denied once shown.

[Renall]

Let us set aside, for the moment, whether the show was successful by any particular artistic merit one cares to name. Let us instead address how morally unconscionable this ending is, and how it plays to some rather trite ingrained cultural expectations that conveniently map well between a Japanese and Western audience.

Oh, the old Jesus gambit. It's always wonderful to have a self-sacrifice described as a "Christ figure," as though dying is the only thing there was to know about our old pal Yeshua from Nazareth. Ever the easy target; the innocent person gathers courage in her heart and bears the sins and despair of the world that it might be a better one. With varying degrees of success, of course.

But someone touched on it much earlier: Who asked you to do that, Madoka? Perhaps one's grief and pain is one's own to withstand. Perhaps those who cave in to their grief and unhappiness need to do so. But even if they don't, you really have no business taking it on. For that matter, why should you be put into a situation where you're forced to decide to take that burden on? You are, after all, an innocent and ordinary person. You very explicitly are not a Christ figure at all. You have no higher destiny, save that you be asked to choose it. But the only reason you're choosing it at all is because other people forced you to.

And yet choose it Madoka did. Fair enough. At least there is some merit in the sacrifice for the good of others, even if it does essentially shoot the finger to everyone else who ever cared about her, but all for those who fell to their despair in the past. And for oneself. A selfish selfless act, so to speak.

But what brave new world have you created, but one that is worse than the one you swept away? My goodness, but what a mess. At best you revised the system ever so slightly while leaving it in place. At worst, you've actually spread the misery while condemning magical girls to continue a vain struggle. A struggle, it should be noted, which now has far higher stakes; where once a magical girl acquired a wish under personal auspices and eventually fell as a result of her personal despair, now the threat is posed generally to all, and the corps of magical girls is tasked with an eternal battle that in many ways does not personally benefit or impact them at all. Nor, it seems, can it ever truly be won.

Kyouko warned that one ought to have something worth fighting for. She emphasized making a decision based on one's personal choices. No longer is that an option in the current system. Once you've acquired what you wished for, you are drafted to fight for humanity generally. Let us hope that this is what you wanted, and that this is what motivates you.

Meanwhile, one presumes the fight goes on. Oh, and it goes on. For Homura. The one who risked everything for Madoka. The one who fought, ceaselessly and repeatedly, against impossible odds. What gift has been given to your prized retainer in this world of yours, Madoka? Oh... she fights endlessly. I suppose that emphatically answers the question of whether you were worth the trouble, doesn't it?

And Kyubey? An amoral agent of an immoral and murderous system built on a shaky foundation of professed "necessity" - an argument he avoids even making if he can get away with it - is punished not even slightly for his evil deeds. Oh, the new system is perhaps not entirely to his liking, but it doesn't have to be; he still has a system after all.

So let me see if I understand this:

• For no reason whatsoever, Madoka was forced into a position where she had little option but to choose to become the messiah, nevermind that she had no particular reason to be the one who had to do it. For her choice she attains a sort of immortality, but must abandon her life and family.
• Homura, the eternal soldier, willing to go to any length and fight any hopeless battle for her deified friend, is condemned to continue fighting in this new world her efforts helped spawn. She too has had her life stolen, and it doesn't look like she will know rest any time soon.
• Sayaka dies so that another person can be happy, even though she will gain absolutely nothing but annihilation from this and he will not even explicitly know to be grateful. Obscurity and death, with only the bitter aftertaste of believing that she actually accomplished something by giving of herself, which she will never know for certain is actually true. Indeed, she may face worse than death, depending what a "soul" actually is and what becomes of the souls of magical girls. Perhaps she's simply outright erased. What a horrible prospect!
• Kyubey and his ilk, the architects of an immoral and manipulative system, are handed whole-cloth an entirely new system, at worst slightly less efficient than the one prior, yet in exchange vastly easier to sell to their unwitting murder victims as there is no longer a secret to conceal.

Did anyone actually win, here? Certainly evil was excused; not granted clemency, mind, as they are free to continue murdering humans for their own ends, and thus none of the contrition necessary for true mercy to be granted exists. The new world is, at best, no worse than the old, and at worst considerably more depressing in its nihilistic implications. An ignorant lamb was fooled into believing she chose to put herself to death for others unbidden and unappreciated, and in the end we must still contend with grief, pain, despair, evil, and the machinations of things beyond human ken and their diabolical ends.

And this, it seems, is meant to be satisfactory. Well nuts to that.

[matteas]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

While it surely would have been interesting, this wasn't all that relevant to the main narrative of the story. Walprugis night was a powerful witch, what more need be said?

It could be said that it might have been Homura herself. A powerful mahou shoujo turning into a powerful witch. It's useless to argue that it is impossible as Homura was still a mahou shoujo by the time WN appeared, because Homura could travel through time so it wouldn't be strange for WN to be able to do the same. Actually, it's more likely that WN appeared suddenly rather than have come to the town from somewhere else in the world, because it has been said that if WN were to manifest itself, it would kill thousands of people. If it had come from a different place on Earth in the same dimension, or timeline if you want, it would have already incited a massive havoc in the world and its whereabouts would have been monitored. They would expect it to come. Therefore, the only plausible explanation is that WN appeared out of nowhere, having had traveled from a different time or timeline. And who is the one that can travel through time again and again?

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Look at this way. In our world, men have achieved great things troughout history, and there are a handful of women that have been on par with these men. But in Gen's world these women could only do this because they got magic.

Emphasis mine.

In Madoka world, men or no men, they stay in the stone-age. QB has not lied and is unlikely to have lied in that one point.



In the end, grief can't be crushed out in their world. Madoka just made it so that the magical girls no longer had to die in grief and then continue on as a witch destroying what they had fought for so dearly.

[Riga92]

Originally Posted by Renall

Spoiler for size:

Let us set aside, for the moment, whether the show was successful by any particular artistic merit one cares to name. Let us instead address how morally unconscionable this ending is, and how it plays to some rather trite ingrained cultural expectations that conveniently map well between a Japanese and Western audience.

Oh, the old Jesus gambit. It's always wonderful to have a self-sacrifice described as a "Christ figure," as though dying is the only thing there was to know about our old pal Yeshua from Nazareth. Ever the easy target; the innocent person gathers courage in her heart and bears the sins and despair of the world that it might be a better one. With varying degrees of success, of course.

But someone touched on it much earlier: Who asked you to do that, Madoka? Perhaps one's grief and pain is one's own to withstand. Perhaps those who cave in to their grief and unhappiness need to do so. But even if they don't, you really have no business taking it on. For that matter, why should you be put into a situation where you're forced to decide to take that burden on? You are, after all, an innocent and ordinary person. You very explicitly are not a Christ figure at all. You have no higher destiny, save that you be asked to choose it. But the only reason you're choosing it at all is because other people forced you to.

And yet choose it Madoka did. Fair enough. At least there is some merit in the sacrifice for the good of others, even if it does essentially shoot the finger to everyone else who ever cared about her, but all for those who fell to their despair in the past. And for oneself. A selfish selfless act, so to speak.

But what brave new world have you created, but one that is worse than the one you swept away? My goodness, but what a mess. At best you revised the system ever so slightly while leaving it in place. At worst, you've actually spread the misery while condemning magical girls to continue a vain struggle. A struggle, it should be noted, which now has far higher stakes; where once a magical girl acquired a wish under personal auspices and eventually fell as a result of her personal despair, now the threat is posed generally to all, and the corps of magical girls is tasked with an eternal battle that in many ways does not personally benefit or impact them at all. Nor, it seems, can it ever truly be won.

Kyouko warned that one ought to have something worth fighting for. She emphasized making a decision based on one's personal choices. No longer is that an option in the current system. Once you've acquired what you wished for, you are drafted to fight for humanity generally. Let us hope that this is what you wanted, and that this is what motivates you.

Meanwhile, one presumes the fight goes on. Oh, and it goes on. For Homura. The one who risked everything for Madoka. The one who fought, ceaselessly and repeatedly, against impossible odds. What gift has been given to your prized retainer in this world of yours, Madoka? Oh... she fights endlessly. I suppose that emphatically answers the question of whether you were worth the trouble, doesn't it?

And Kyubey? An amoral agent of an immoral and murderous system built on a shaky foundation of professed "necessity" - an argument he avoids even making if he can get away with it - is punished not even slightly for his evil deeds. Oh, the new system is perhaps not entirely to his liking, but it doesn't have to be; he still has a system after all.

So let me see if I understand this:

• For no reason whatsoever, Madoka was forced into a position where she had little option but to choose to become the messiah, nevermind that she had no particular reason to be the one who had to do it. For her choice she attains a sort of immortality, but must abandon her life and family.
• Homura, the eternal soldier, willing to go to any length and fight any hopeless battle for her deified friend, is condemned to continue fighting in this new world her efforts helped spawn. She too has had her life stolen, and it doesn't look like she will know rest any time soon.
• Sayaka dies so that another person can be happy, even though she will gain absolutely nothing but annihilation from this and he will not even explicitly know to be grateful. Obscurity and death, with only the bitter aftertaste of believing that she actually accomplished something by giving of herself, which she will never know for certain is actually true. Indeed, she may face worse than death, depending what a "soul" actually is and what becomes of the souls of magical girls. Perhaps she's simply outright erased. What a horrible prospect!
• Kyubey and his ilk, the architects of an immoral and manipulative system, are handed whole-cloth an entirely new system, at worst slightly less efficient than the one prior, yet in exchange vastly easier to sell to their unwitting murder victims as there is no longer a secret to conceal.

Did anyone actually win, here? Certainly evil was excused; not granted clemency, mind, as they are free to continue murdering humans for their own ends, and thus none of the contrition necessary for true mercy to be granted exists. The new world is, at best, no worse than the old, and at worst considerably more depressing in its nihilistic implications. An ignorant lamb was fooled into believing she chose to put herself to death for others unbidden and unappreciated, and in the end we must still contend with grief, pain, despair, evil, and the machinations of things beyond human ken and their diabolical ends.

And this, it seems, is meant to be satisfactory. Well nuts to that.

The reason why despair still exists in the world because it cannot be removed. Remember in the world of Madokaverse, where there is hope, there is an equal amount of despair. They always remain in equilibrium. No matter how powerful Madoka is, she cannot just remove all the despair in the world and make the world all fluffy and happy filled with rainbows. However, her wish and sacrifice wasn't wasted. She gave hope to the Puella Magi, for they no longer die from their own despair, and in turn they can finally become true Protectors of Humanity. This in turn gives hope for the world, for as long as Puella Magi exist, humanity will survive.

For Homura, her wish was to protect Madoka, which in turn, means she always wants to be by Madoka's side. Madoka's wish actually fufills Homura's wish. Because of Homura, Madoka wasn't tricked by Kyubey and made the correct wish. Even though Madoka is no longer a physical being, it was shown in the ending she has always been by Homura's side, and Homura is perfectly content with that.

And for Sayaka, while we really don't know what happens to the souls of the girls after they die, it is implied that Madoka takes them to another plane of existence, presumably heaven. And besides, Sayaka didn't die with regret. In fact she was happy that Kyousuke was finally able to play again as a musician. She never did regret her wish. Some people call her dumb, and she may certainly be so, but you can't deny that she finally left the world happy and content.

[Kaijo]

Yeah, sorry, looks like I missed it.^^;;

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Madoka didn't know what to wish for before Mami's death, just liked the idea of a mahou shoujo. Mami dies. Madoka is confused about the role of a mahou shoujo and continues to be until at least Sayaka contracts. With Kyouko's entrance to the show Madoka again is confronted with the choice to become a magical girl. She wants things to get better, but doesn't know how. She's confused, and at this moment just wants everything to get better. Homura keeps warning her not to contract, despite Madoka yearning to change the misfortune. At this point though, are we the viewers able to clearly see a way to change everything for the better?

The answer is no because at this point we still don't even know the nature of the system yet. We don't know what causes witches. We don't know why Homura wants Madoka to stop form contracting so badly. We don't know if there's an effective wish that can be made to stop everyone's troubles.

Yeah, you say she could've asked Homura and Kyube for information... However, we already know Homura was not going to give out the information. They also already asked what witches come from to Kyube and Mami and got a reply that magical girls are hope while witches are like curses. I mean, they already gave an answer, that not until later, did we fully understand what Kyube meant.

Let me use Mai Hime for a moment... Natsume was actively asking people and seeking out information. Mai went to ask Mashiro what was going on. They obviously weren't told, but these 14 year old girls are smart enough to ask the questions. So, sure, Homura might not have said anything, but Kyube seemed to be rather forthcoming about things when pressed.

I will say this: if they had asked, and Homura stonewalled, while Kyube gave half-truths or outright lied, then I wouldn't have a problem here. In fact, it would be the perfect way to address this. Your characters look at least to be of average intelligence, and yet you keep them in the dark long enough for the plot to develop. In that respect, Mai Hime handled it beautifully.

A lot of their lacking information was crafty wording by Kyube. Episode 10 showed that divulging all the information didn't necessarily lead to good things either. Episodes 11 and 12 showed that Madoka constantly was getting exponentially more powerful. The availability of being able to circumvent the system in such a way wasn't available before because Madoka wasn't that powerful yet. That's why Homura's struggles were not in vain since her struggles ended up giving Madoka the power to accomplish what she did.

And yet, divulging all that information was what gave Madoka the idea for her wish. Whether you see the ending as a good thing or bad thing, is dependent upon personal feelings, though. But I want to clarify I'm not referring to other timelines; just the main one.

In the end, was it really even useful for Madoka to think about wishing Mami back?

It would be a naturally human thing to at least consider. I never spoke as to how wise it might be, merely that it should have been something considered. We are all gonna die someday, so in that light, do you save someone when you the opportunity to? Or do you think "Naw, we all die someday, so I'll leave him laying on the train track."

As Haak pointed out, a deconstruction isn't all about having a bad or bittersweet ending. A deconstruction only aims to take certian parts of a genre or trope and show that it's not exactly so. I feel Madoka did plenty good on that, regardless of which world, the previous or ending world we end up in. This is because it shows how the girl's choices have consequences and while MG's may be noble, as clearly portrayed, they're often sacrifices. Nothing wrong here.

I should clarify that if this anime wanted to really be a deconstruction, then they could have had a fairly nice deconstructed ended. Madoka shows up in episode 12 beside Homura.

Madoka: "You know what, Homura? You're right. All this time I've been concerned with others, and nothing I did made any difference. Sayaka tried to help others, and in the end only destroyed herself. Kyoko died as well, trying to help someone else. So I'm going to make my wish, and make it for myself, because I've learned you were right, in that it is up to each person in this world to do for themselves. I owe you for showing this to me, and protecting me, so I'll take out Walpurgis for you."

Bam, you give birth to an MG protagonist, who is an anti-hero. Who fights for herself, instead of love or friendship.

Poor analogy. Is God an active agent throughout the story like Madoka? The whole show led up to Madoka eventually contracting, while hinting at her potential and power. If your analogy accounted for the probable entrance of God intervening in the story, there'd be no problem IMO. Same here, it was probable not unexpected. It's not an out of the blue event. It's not a deus ex machina, almost objectively speaking here.

Heh, you really wanna call Madoka an active agent? She mostly sat on the sidelines. But "God" in this case refers to Madoka's godlike power that only came around in episode 12. Madoka's power wasn't an active participant in the majority of the story. So the analogy does hold, because in my example and the story the "god" element is talked about, but doesn't take action until the end.

I take it you never saw ET then. Whatever, this analogy isn't needed.

I did(although it's been years, heh). And at the start, having ET fly a bicycle at the start wouldn't have accomplished anything. It didn't help until they were being chased and needed to get away.

This is simply not true. Episode 10 shows this is not the case. Furthermore, in this timeline Homura was unwilling to divulge information and Kyube was twisting the words of truth the whole time.

I wouldn't argue twisting so much; he was being rather truthful, about especially interesting things. He could have twisted things with the whole soul gem issue to hide the truth; he didn't. The worst "twisting" he does, is to just not mention certain things. But I'll restate my point that whether or not he divulges the information when asked (and I could even accept that he might not), the point would be for the girls to ask anyway. That way, you keep your protagonists looking intelligent, and the plot intact.

Homura going cold? That's not convenient. The other approaches didn't work. She tried a new approach. You viewed that as ineffective, but her goal was to not allow Madoka to contract, which she did succeed in doing so. She would've been more successful had she just defeated walprugis night on her own.

It is convenient, because it provides an excuse for her to not explain anything to Madoka and Sayaka, and to present herself as an antagonist at the start. She kinda tried explaining in one timeline, but we don't know what she said exactly. So, she discards one idea that she kinda, sorta, tried in a half-ass way, in favor of another method (defeat Walpurgis alone) that she's tried and failed several times! We could say: "she didn't know that she might not be able to do it alone" to which I would reply: "she didn't know that she might not be able to convince them if she tried explaining better."

Kyoko's transition was a little rough, but it wasn't out of place. She did have a very relateable story to Sayaka, and Sayaka reminded her of how she once was.

I probably could have bought the initial truce when Kyoko wanted to talk. But when Sayaka spit on Kyoko's whole way of life, I didn't buy her suddenly deciding to sacrifice her life for Sayaka.

Hitomi confessing to Kamijo may be a bit convenient, but not more so than many plot details in almost every story.

"Everyone else does it, too!" isn't a very compelling argument for various reasons. Especially when a lot of other stories don't use it (or at least abuse it to this degree). I don't question that Hitomi comes up with a crush confession. I question the timing and the 1 day factors. It was deliberately designed to further twist the screws into Sayaka, and not much else.

And those were only a fraction of the issues. What about Homura attempting to kill Kyube in ep1, when she knows that it is pointless - convenience designed to get Madoka and Sayaka there, make them see Homura as antagonist, and.. oh yeah, there's a witch there, too, so we get Mami as well. And then we have a witch that, for some reason, is different and thus can kill Mami right as Madoka has finally decided to become an MG - convenient and never explained. And also Madoka running into a witch-kissed Hitomi.

And we're still left with Madoka and the girls not asking questions. Even if you feel it was okay for them not to in episodes 2, 3 or 4, how about episodes 6 and 7? They had their first very real brush with the idea that Kyube isn't telling them anything; why didn't they think to start grilling him for more information, ie, "What else aren't you telling us?" Instead, they bumble around some more.

I won't turn this into a Nanoha debate though, but I do find it funny that you consider this show so ultra-convenient and contrived compared to Nanoha which I feel is just as convenient, if not more so than this show.

Then let's ignore Nanoha altogether. I am simply judging this show based on it's own merits, and based on the experience of thousands of other stories that have managed a narrative that didn't require so many MacGuffins, kludges, and unexplained events to propel the plot forward.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Sorry, but you're wrong. Different people are different, and teenage girls are about the least reliable and emotionally-stable people on Earth. I can't believe you're actually arguing this.

*snip*

So yeah. Grief can do FUCKED UP SHIT to your head. After Mami's death I was quite frankly shocked Madoka even remembered her own name.

Have you ever personally lost someone close to you? Did you ever think the words "I wish he/she was still alive..." and/or "I wish he/she hadn't of died..." go through most peoples' minds? In fact, going crazy actually works quite well in this regard, because it showcases perfectly that many people go crazy trying to either pretend the person is still alive, or that they can bring that person back, etc.

It's a very human reaction to wish the person hadn't died or wish they were still alive.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Riga92

The reason why despair still exists in the world because it cannot be removed. Remember in the world of Madokaverse, where there is hope, there is an equal amount of despair. They always remain in equilibrium. No matter how powerful Madoka is, she cannot just remove all the despair in the world and make the world all fluffy and happy filled with rainbows. However, her wish and sacrifice wasn't wasted. She gave hope to the Puella Magi, for they no longer die from their own despair, and in turn they can finally become true Protectors of Humanity. This in turn gives hope for the world, for as long as Puella Magi exist, humanity will survive.

She still managed to remove the despair related to the MG as a whole, to the point she could do it regardless of the time nor space.
Furthermore, the despair itself was basically -nuked- without any less compensation from the happiness side either. There isn't really any equilibrum effect on Madoka's wish, except perhaps her own existence being erased.

And as for "protector of humanity", it is really difficult to imagine. The fact they no longer turn into witches doesn't mean they become heroines all of a sudden. The system was only altered about 1 single point, it doesn't magically turn the whole deal into a noble cause, especially when you have a carrot on the stick.
To expand the "hope", it isn't really one, since the system was modded so they won't turn into witches, but it doesn't mean they cannot feel despair etc: the proof is that they are still erased as well.
The only thing is that Madoka allowed them to basically have a "rest" after they are basically exhausted/spiraled in despair.

To be honest, I can't call that hope at all. She basically obliterated an abominable fate after being a MG, but the fate of a MG isn't any better.