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Zero Hurricane · 2011-09-20, 18:27

At least she more like a hit and run suspect.

Akiyoshi · 2011-09-20, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero Hurricane

At least she more like a hit and run suspect.

She didn't run from Vita and Erio xD

LostSome · 2011-09-20, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

She didn't run from Vita and Erio xD

You run away from flies ?

I don`t think she even bother to look at them even once.

Akiyoshi · 2011-09-20, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostSome

You run away from flies ?

I don`t think she even bother to look at them even once.

She looked at Vita xD

Sunder the Gold · 2011-09-20, 20:47

Is anyone else perturbed that Curren managed to effortlessly brush off and defeat Vita with a normal katana, without even having her guard up or taking her seriously? With Erio attacking from the other side?

Unless Curren is some super-ancient warrior herself, I feel cheated.

Kuze · 2011-09-20, 21:07

I hate defending the Huckebein in any capacity, but Vita's track record against humanoids has not exactly been...... well....

Okay, her point is that she powers on, and hits people really really hard. When she can't hit the target? Problems happen. And Curren had to break her own weapon to break Vita's, Curren had a back up weapon to use, Vita didn't.

For Erio, well, I don't know. Depends how seriously you take his mock battle with Fate from ViViD.

Justin_Brett · 2011-09-20, 21:23

At least Vita's gotten defeated by people who are actually legitimately threatening. Not very well done in this case, but it's not like that isn't the case for a lot of things in this story. I could have done without the 'tilt head slightly to dodge wide hammer swing' panel, though. It's not Loony Toons.

And why wouldn't you take it seriously? The aftermath, whether you approved or not, does not dispute the facts or keep them from making sense given what the Forwards are meant to represent.

Rising Dragon · 2011-09-20, 21:25

People wouldn't take it seriously, I imagine, because... well, because it's Fate. Simple as that.

Kuze · 2011-09-20, 21:31

So is Erio now consistently fast enough to be able to disarm Sonic Mode Fate, and she's unable to do anything about it?

Abridged: I know the role of the Forwards and what they represent, but I have issues squaring the above with his attacks against Curren. Either Curren's going to have to show absolutely ridiculous speed some time or other , or Erio is going to have to repeat his performance against another speedster. Either one shouldn't be exactly difficult to illustrate.

And we already talked about vast disparities in character showings before.

Justin_Brett · 2011-09-20, 21:43

No, because there were power limiters on everyone in that battle, but apparently larger ones on Fate and Nanoha. It didn't mean Erio and Teana had completely outclassed them, but it did mean they had closed the gap considerably from the start of StrikerS.

And I really doubt Tsuzuki put much thought into that scene at all besides making Curren look dangerous. Erio kinda did squat that showed off his strengths before she kicked his teeth in. He could have gotten replaced by someone else moderately strong holding a Strike Cannon and it wouldn't have mattered.

Kuze · 2011-09-20, 21:54

So we just return to the point that just how seriously do you take that battle, because it's the only other thing that Erio has shown in the two series, unless you count that barely shown fight with DeVille. Noone is saying that they didn't improve, the question is, by how much? Is there any real ground we can work with? ViViD, Sonic Mode Fate can't do nuthin' to Erio. Force, Erio can't do nuthin' to Curren, unless he wants to blow up the Wolfram. There's gotta be a better ground to work on than what we got.

But that's not exactly news.

Justin_Brett · 2011-09-20, 21:56

Oh, I thought you meant something like the view of 'well, maybe they just made him strong for a second to have that fanservice moment!'. Yeah, I see your point.

Kuze · 2011-09-20, 22:13

I might have argued "well, maybe they just made Fate slow for a second to have that fanservice moment!", you never know.

But I'm crazy in the head, I've entertained the thought about Vivio trying to punch one of her opponents, who blocks it with a elbow strike and hurts her hand, hits her in the throat with the other elbow, and then throws her to the ground, followed up with a axe heel greave to the gut. Too much CQC you see.

Anyways. AED operation, what would it be. Maybe it restarts the synchronization between the Linker Core and the cardiac/vitals system?

Justin_Brett · 2011-09-20, 22:18

You'd be correct there. Just replace 'that moment' with 'the whole mock battle'.

Kaijo · 2011-09-20, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuze

So is Erio now consistently fast enough to be able to disarm Sonic Mode Fate, and she's unable to do anything about it?

I wouldn't jump to "consistently" just yet. Combat isn't a binary equation that will always come up with the same number. This isn't DBZ, where power level means someone is always faster and will always win. Combat in Nanoha is highly unpredictable, with the victor not always being the strongest. Tactics account for far more than simple speed or strength. Perhaps Erio got lucky or Fate slipped up a little, or he had a burst of quick thinking that enabled him to maneuver in a way Fate didn't expect... it may not happen the next time.

The point is, I wouldn't immediately assume Karen is so powerful just because she took out a few people. She snuck up on the battlefield and probably carefully planned her attacks. I wouldn't doubt she has some info on who her opponents are, and the best way to deal with them. Surprise counts for a lot. The other thing is, it's hard to tell just how fast things happen in a manga setting.

In short, don't sweat it.

I will add that, despite how fast someone can move, one is still slowed down by thought. You can only think so fast, which is why martial artists train themselves by repeatedly practicing the same moves and exercises in the same way: to train their muscles to automatically move in a certain way which is faster than thinking "He's about to punch me, so I need to move my arm like so..." and then making the motion.

Thus, Fate can move fast, but if you can predict her moves based on what you know of her style, you can use it to her advantage. Erio, most likely having trained extensively with her, would know her moves and could have planned to take advantage of it.

Enternal · 2011-09-20, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I wouldn't jump to "consistently" just yet. Combat isn't a binary equation that will always come up with the same number. This isn't DBZ, where power level means someone is always faster and will always win. Combat in Nanoha is highly unpredictable, with the victor not always being the strongest. Tactics account for far more than simple speed or strength. Perhaps Erio got lucky or Fate slipped up a little, or he had a burst of quick thinking that enabled him to maneuver in a way Fate didn't expect... it may not happen the next time.

The point is, I wouldn't immediately assume Karen is so powerful just because she took out a few people. She snuck up on the battlefield and probably carefully planned her attacks. I wouldn't doubt she has some info on who her opponents are, and the best way to deal with them. Surprise counts for a lot. The other thing is, it's hard to tell just how fast things happen in a manga setting.

In short, don't sweat it.

I will add that, despite how fast someone can move, one is still slowed down by thought. You can only think so fast, which is why martial artists train themselves by repeatedly practicing the same moves and exercises in the same way: to train their muscles to automatically move in a certain way which is faster than thinking "He's about to punch me, so I need to move my arm like so..." and then making the motion.

Thus, Fate can move fast, but if you can predict her moves based on what you know of her style, you can use it to her advantage. Erio, most likely having trained extensively with her, would know her moves and could have planned to take advantage of it.

Totally agree with you. In that same mock battle in Vivid, look at Nanoha vs Teana. Same thing happens there. We know for the most part that Nanoha is definitely stronger and more experienced than Teana. Teana understands Nanoha and with that understanding, it became somewhat of an edge in that battle with Teana barely winning again Nanoha ("Teana: Somehow I survived") due to the slight advantage and luck. Just like Erio, he grew up with her so understands and knows her well so he took her out before she was able to use Sonic form. Knowledge, understanding, and surprises can still do a lot in a battle. Even the most strategic plan can be cast aside by something that is just completely unexpected... something like getting into a fight and you expect your enemy to whip out a knife and instead they pulled out a stuffed teddy bear and beat you senseless with it.

Akiyoshi · 2011-09-20, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Is anyone else perturbed that Curren managed to effortlessly brush off and defeat Vita with a normal katana, without even having her guard up or taking her seriously? With Erio attacking from the other side?

Unless Curren is some super-ancient warrior herself, I feel cheated.

Heh, bonus points for defeating a rampaging Vita. Curren is the first able to stop Vita's unstoppable rage xD(she wasn't on Berserker mode when faced with Zest).

Zero Hurricane · 2011-09-20, 23:51

As detailed as possible the plan and strategies implemented, if faced with an enemy more sneaky and likes to play from behind like Curren, it's all just nonsense. Well, yes. That's how pragmatic the nature of Eclipse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enternal

Knowledge, understanding, and surprises can still do a lot in a battle. Even the most strategic plan can be cast aside by something that is just completely unexpected... something like getting into a fight and you expect your enemy to whip out a knife and instead they pulled out a stuffed teddy bear and beat you senseless with it.

Just like the people who fasted during Ramadan. If we are ready physically, but not spiritually ready, then we lose directly with temptations and trials that meted out to us. If we lose a strong spiritual power, then we will fall into sin without being able to fully return.

We know since Strikers, Teana finally learn from the mistakes made by seniors as a teacher, Nanoha. As a results, she manage take down the three Numbers at once, despite assistance from the air. Even in ViViD she manages to get a "sweet revenge" to Nanoha.

So the question is: how does the best solution to defeat the Eclipse Driver like Huckebein which prioritizes pragmatism?

Justin_Brett · 2011-09-21, 00:03

Just because there are villains that would logically require pragmatism doesn't mean it's a plot point, sadly.

Akiyoshi · 2011-09-21, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero Hurricane

So the question is: how does the best solution to defeat the Eclipse Driver like Huckebein which prioritizes pragmatism?

Nanoha and co. still priorize the safe capture of the Huckebein, how much pragmatism you can apply in fighting those guys without reaching lethal power? The AEC are lethal weapons, only Fate with 5th Gen Bardiche have stun powers.

EDIT: Page claimed for fake fire magic.

2011-09-20, 18:27	Link #121
Zero Hurricane I'm here for the reason.. Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Surabaya, East Java, Indonesia Age: 31	At least she more like a hit and run suspect. __________________ "Use of deadly force is authorized"

2011-09-20, 21:25	Link #128
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	People wouldn't take it seriously, I imagine, because... well, because it's Fate. Simple as that. __________________

2011-09-20, 20:47	Link #125
Sunder the Gold Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Is anyone else perturbed that Curren managed to effortlessly brush off and defeat Vita with a normal katana, without even having her guard up or taking her seriously? With Erio attacking from the other side? Unless Curren is some super-ancient warrior herself, I feel cheated.

2011-09-20, 21:07	Link #126
Kuze Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011	I hate defending the Huckebein in any capacity, but Vita's track record against humanoids has not exactly been...... well.... Okay, her point is that she powers on, and hits people really really hard. When she can't hit the target? Problems happen. And Curren had to break her own weapon to break Vita's, Curren had a back up weapon to use, Vita didn't. For Erio, well, I don't know. Depends how seriously you take his mock battle with Fate from ViViD.

2011-09-20, 21:23	Link #127
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	At least Vita's gotten defeated by people who are actually legitimately threatening. Not very well done in this case, but it's not like that isn't the case for a lot of things in this story. I could have done without the 'tilt head slightly to dodge wide hammer swing' panel, though. It's not Loony Toons. And why wouldn't you take it seriously? The aftermath, whether you approved or not, does not dispute the facts or keep them from making sense given what the Forwards are meant to represent.

2011-09-20, 21:31	Link #129
Kuze Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011	So is Erio now consistently fast enough to be able to disarm Sonic Mode Fate, and she's unable to do anything about it? Abridged: I know the role of the Forwards and what they represent, but I have issues squaring the above with his attacks against Curren. Either Curren's going to have to show absolutely ridiculous speed some time or other , or Erio is going to have to repeat his performance against another speedster. Either one shouldn't be exactly difficult to illustrate. And we already talked about vast disparities in character showings before.

2011-09-20, 21:43	Link #130
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	No, because there were power limiters on everyone in that battle, but apparently larger ones on Fate and Nanoha. It didn't mean Erio and Teana had completely outclassed them, but it did mean they had closed the gap considerably from the start of StrikerS. And I really doubt Tsuzuki put much thought into that scene at all besides making Curren look dangerous. Erio kinda did squat that showed off his strengths before she kicked his teeth in. He could have gotten replaced by someone else moderately strong holding a Strike Cannon and it wouldn't have mattered.

2011-09-20, 21:54	Link #131
Kuze Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011	So we just return to the point that just how seriously do you take that battle, because it's the only other thing that Erio has shown in the two series, unless you count that barely shown fight with DeVille. Noone is saying that they didn't improve, the question is, by how much? Is there any real ground we can work with? ViViD, Sonic Mode Fate can't do nuthin' to Erio. Force, Erio can't do nuthin' to Curren, unless he wants to blow up the Wolfram. There's gotta be a better ground to work on than what we got. But that's not exactly news.

2011-09-20, 21:56	Link #132
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	Oh, I thought you meant something like the view of 'well, maybe they just made him strong for a second to have that fanservice moment!'. Yeah, I see your point.

2011-09-20, 22:13	Link #133
Kuze Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011	I might have argued "well, maybe they just made Fate slow for a second to have that fanservice moment!", you never know. But I'm crazy in the head, I've entertained the thought about Vivio trying to punch one of her opponents, who blocks it with a elbow strike and hurts her hand, hits her in the throat with the other elbow, and then throws her to the ground, followed up with a axe heel greave to the gut. Too much CQC you see. Anyways. AED operation, what would it be. Maybe it restarts the synchronization between the Linker Core and the cardiac/vitals system?

2011-09-20, 22:18	Link #134
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	You'd be correct there. Just replace 'that moment' with 'the whole mock battle'.

2011-09-21, 00:03	Link #139
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	Just because there are villains that would logically require pragmatism doesn't mean it's a plot point, sadly.