Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Huzawha? I'm sorry, but there's one glaring mistake in this sentence, and that's that almost anybody joins the military because they like killing people. You'll be hard-pressed to find any military where this is the case, especially with volunteers. Almost the entire Western world relies on volunteer militaries, but none of them are filled with people who chose to because they get a high when killing others. And I somehow doubt you can make an argument that anyone joins the Britannian army for the prospect of being deliberately selected to carry out death sentences.

In case you are forgetting, I am not talking about just any plain military; I am talking about the Brittanian military. If you are using any standards relating to other fictitious universes, or even real life organizations, then obviously it wouldn't have been the case.

But Brittannia is a completely different beast.

And further, since WHEN did I claim Suzaku like killing people? I merely reject the idea that he dislike the concept. That doesn't mean the reverse is true.

Suzaku does not "enjoy" killing people, but he doesn't mind doing it at all. As long as someone else takes the "moral responsibility" by giving him an order, he will do it.

[orangejuicetang]

Though to be honest, how many death sentences have we seen the Britannia military handout? There was one for Todou, and then later there was the ones for the captured knights of the black order, and then there is this one for the solider that tries to kill Suzuku, though the translation I watched said "capital punishment". And there was no reason for the Britannia military to not excute, in their eyes, terrorists who also managed to kill a few members of the royal family as well as cause great loss of life among the soliders. I'm sure that if the United States somehow found Osama Bin Laden tommorrow and managed to capture him, he would get the death sentence and be excuted, and no one would be that suprised or shocked and feel that he didn't deserve it, except for perhaps the people working for him. Also, he hesitates in shooting Lelouch in episode 1 of S1, the members of the JFL on the tanker as well as in excuting Todou even though he is ordered to by a superior officer who should have the then "moral responsibility". What he dislikes is needless loss of life. If he thinks that killing certain people will keep more people from dying, that is what he will do, order or not. If he feels like killing will just result in the useless loss of life, he won't be able to do it, even if ordered to.

[alpie]

"Suzaku does not "enjoy" killing people, but he doesn't mind doing it at all. As long as someone else takes the "moral responsibility" by giving him an order, he will do it."

"People" is too generalized. I believe that Suzaku won't mind killing Soldiers(if any soldier actually cared about killing another then there would be a problem=_=),but he would mind killing a civilian.Imagine Charles saying"KILL ALL ELEVENS!!!", I don't believe he would start blasting his cannon thingy everywhere.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by alpie

"Suzaku does not "enjoy" killing people, but he doesn't mind doing it at all. As long as someone else takes the "moral responsibility" by giving him an order, he will do it."

"People" is too generalized. I believe that Suzaku won't mind killing Soldiers(if any soldier actually cared about killing another then there would be a problem=_=),but he would mind killing a civilian.Imagine Charles saying"KILL ALL ELEVENS!!!", I don't believe he would start blasting his cannon thingy everywhere.

We will see about that if and when it happens.

But the one thing I am SURE of, is if the Emperor told Gino, Anya, or one of the other KotR members to massacre all 11s, Suzaku will do nothing to stop it.
Why should he? It's not his problem.

[orangejuicetang]

if the Emperor told Gino, Anya, or one of the other KotR members to massacre all 11s, Suzaku will do nothing to stop it.
Why should he? It's not his problem.

We will also see about that if it ever happens.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

But the one thing I am SURE of, is if the Emperor told Gino, Anya, or one of the other KotR members to massacre all 11s, Suzaku will do nothing to stop it.
Why should he? It's not his problem.

He'd try to stop it. It's not what Nunnally or Euphie would want after all.

[demon_god04]

But he is also under the direct command of the Emperor, so if the Emperor did order Gino and Anya to slaughter all the 11s he could not stop them even if he wanted to.

[DN24]

But the one thing I am SURE of, is if the Emperor told Gino, Anya, or one of the other KotR members to massacre all 11s, Suzaku will do nothing to stop it.
Why should he? It's not his problem.

Wrong!! He'll at least try to stop them, he did say that he became a soldier to save his people(the 11s).

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

But he is also under the direct command of the Emperor, so if the Emperor did order Gino and Anya to slaughter all the 11s he could not stop them even if he wanted to.

He could it would just require going against orders and he'd lose his KOR spot and probably get executed. But he might do it depending on who asked him. If it was Nunnally I'd think he'd do it in a heartbeat.

[DN24]

He killed his own father because he didn't want to see all japanese get killed by Britania. So, why would he kill them on Charles or Nunnally order??

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Wrong!! He'll at least try to stop them, he did say that he became a soldier to save his people(the 11s).

He became a soldier so he can get killed. That was a fact.

Originally Posted by DN24

He killed his own father because he didn't want to see all japanese get killed by Britania. So, why would he kill them on Charles or Nunnally order??

As I kept saying, I am now only judging Suzaku by who he is now, in R2.

Suzaku's position and mindset have been rather fluid through out the story, from when he was a child, to when he was a grunt, when he meet Euphie, when Euphie died, and after the end of season 1 when he get the KotR position. Each time, his position resets.

The R2 Suzaku say he want to become a KotR and one day rule Area 11. I am pointing out that R2 Suzaku is a terrible leader and will not lift a finger to help the Japanese even if he get to rule it.

[orangejuicetang]

As of now, in R2, I see no evidence that supports the assumption that Suzuku would be willing to or at least indifferent to the slaughter of Japenese even if the Emperor ordered it. And I feel that there has been really no evidence that he is a terrible leader and that he will not lift a finger to help the Japenese even if he manages to gain control of Japan. In R2, Suzuku has not been given many leadership opportunities. You could point to the how fleet vs. submarine thing, but seriously, what were the chances that there would be a methane deposit buried in that spot, and why the hell would the location of the deposists be shown on a PAPER MAP? I mean, Cornelia would have probably fallen into the same trap, but yet no one constantly says that she is a terrible leader. And while Suzuku may turn out to actually be a terrible leader, the point is, that at this time right now, we are unable to judge. And why do you feel that he wouldn't help the Japenese? Even Lelouch trusts Suzuku to protect the Japenese, even though he hates, or feels betrayed by him. I don't think that Lelouch would have that much faith in Suzuku if Suzuku was indeed the type of person who would be indifferent to the slaughter of Japenese if the emperor orders it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

As of now, in R2, I see no evidence that supports the assumption that Suzuku would be willing to or at least indifferent to the slaughter of Japenese even if the Emperor ordered it. And I feel that there has been really no evidence that he is a terrible leader and that he will not lift a finger to help the Japenese even if he manages to gain control of Japan. In R2, Suzuku has not been given many leadership opportunities. You could point to the how fleet vs. submarine thing, but seriously, what were the chances that there would be a methane deposit buried in that spot, and why the hell would the location of the deposists be shown on a PAPER MAP? I mean, Cornelia would have probably fallen into the same trap, but yet no one constantly says that she is a terrible leader. And while Suzuku may turn out to actually be a terrible leader, the point is, that at this time right now, we are unable to judge. And why do you feel that he wouldn't help the Japenese? Even Lelouch trusts Suzuku to protect the Japenese, even though he hates, or feels betrayed by him. I don't think that Lelouch would have that much faith in Suzuku if Suzuku was indeed the type of person who would be indifferent to the slaughter of Japenese if the emperor orders it.

I made no mention of the battlefield submarine incident because it is irrelevant; I am talking about Suzaku's ability as a civil leader rather than a military one.

My evidence that he is a terrible leader comes from the assassin incident. Suzaku did not decide on his own what to do with someone who wanted to kill him, but instead leave such a decision to someone else. He is a KotR for crying out loud! He is someone who has the authority to do what needs to be done! Yet he did not make a decision, and instead went with the flow of a colleague on a matter that was his own responsibility.

[orangejuicetang]

Okay, point taken, lets ignore the battefield submarine incident, the only reason I included that was because there was alot of people using that to judge his leadership skill in that episode thread. As for the assassin punishment incident, he might have been reading the document and thinking about it. Seriously though, the only thing that that particular scene tells me is that Suzuku would be a terrible interrogator. Signing a document for somebody's capital punishment is a different skill compared to running a country and being a successful civil leader. I'm sure that if a man had tried to assassinate George Washington, but failed, and then Washington was asked to sign a document to allow the assassins capital punishment, I'm sure that Washington would hesitate and think the thing over for a few days before making a decision. Making a decision that could have such a big impact on someone's life is not an easy decision for a person to make individually, which is why Washington created a cabinet of advisers, allowing him to "go with the flow" of their advice on what to do, if he felt like it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Okay, point taken, lets ignore the battefield submarine incident, the only reason I included that was because there was alot of people using that to judge his leadership skill in that episode thread. As for the assassin punishment incident, he might have been reading the document and thinking about it. Seriously though, the only thing that that particular scene tells me is that Suzuku would be a terrible interrogator. Signing a document for somebody's capital punishment is a different skill compared to running a country and being a successful civil leader. I'm sure that if a man had tried to assassinate George Washington, but failed, and then Washington was asked to sign a document to allow the assassins capital punishment, I'm sure that Washington would hesitate and think the thing over for a few days before making a decision. Making a decision that could have such a big impact on someone's life is not an easy decision for a person to make individually, which is why Washington created a cabinet of advisers, allowing him to "go with the flow" of their advice on what to do, if he felt like it.

Suzaku does not have a cabinet of advisors. There is a reason he was suppose to sign his own signature; it means he is issuing an order.

If Suzaku is genuinely thinking over the best possible outcome, he would have stopped Anya getting into his business and tell her he will sign if and when he is ready. Instead she took over without an objection from him. Thus the conclusion is that Suzaku didn't WANT to make a decision, and made clear his lack of leadership skills.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

He became a soldier so he can get killed. That was a fact.

Mao and the Live Geass has changed all that now.

But the one thing I am SURE of, is if the Emperor told Gino, Anya, or one of the other KotR members to massacre all 11s, Suzaku will do nothing to stop it.
Why should he? It's not his problem.

No offense but is there any point to arguing these facts when they haven't even happened?

Suzaku was ordered to execute Lelouch yet he defied orders and let him live, which resulted in him getting shot. Given how far he went to save the Japanese there I don't see why that cannot carry forward if something similar came up.

I mean until the day comes the Emperor orders him to execute all civilians (which will most likely never happen), then what's the point? The only thing going for these arguments are IF' and "I'm SURE"...yeah well I'M SURE there's a small chance of it even happening and that he would die just to do it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Mao and the Live Geass has changed all that now.

No, because I was talking about why Suzaku joined the military, as a counterpoint against the argument that Suzaku joined up to "save" anyone.

This is history. Neither the "Live" Geass or Mao change this.

[DN24]

He became a soldier so he can get killed. That was a fact.

I don't think he wanted to die that much considered there're faster ways to get yourself killed in occupied Japan. He wants to save Japan but he doesn't mind if he get killed in the process, I think.

We're still not 100% sure that he's a terrible leader yet.The assassin incident alone is not enough to judge his ability.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by DN24

I don't think he wanted to die that much considered there're faster ways to get yourself killed in occupied Japan. He wants to save Japan but he doesn't mind if he get killed in the process, I think.

Well Mao kinda sets the tone. Suzaku joined the army so he can die fighting on the battlefield. You can't argue against that.

Though since he's dead now it's kinda difficult to know what's up in Suzaku's mind.
Unless the Emperor can lend a hand.

We're still not 100% sure that he's a terrible leader yet.The assassin incident alone is not enough to judge his ability.

It seems he was in deep thought in what to do and Anya just snapped him back to reality.

Otherwise the Graston knight would be standing there for awhile before Suzaku even signed it.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Suzaku does not have a cabinet of advisors. There is a reason he was suppose to sign his own signature; it means he is issuing an order.

If Suzaku is genuinely thinking over the best possible outcome, he would have stopped Anya getting into his business and tell her he will sign if and when he is ready. Instead she took over without an objection from him. Thus the conclusion is that Suzaku didn't WANT to make a decision, and made clear his lack of leadership skills.

Okay, first of all, Suzaku acknowledged that he wanted to die while fighting as a soldier. Mao indicated this too. However, neither of them ever said that Suzaku became a soldier for that purpose; furthermore, Suzaku explicitly stated in this most recent episode that he became soldier to save the Japanese. Quotes from Mao don't even contradict this, so you saying that Suzaku doesn't really want to save the Japanese is bullshit.

Second, you seem to have missed the point of the signing scene. What did Anya ask Suzaku immediately after signing off the execution? "Suzaku...are you a...masochist?" Suzaku's hesitation didn't arise out of any difficulties in taking responsibility for people's deaths; rather, it was because the assassin's target was Suzaku himself that he hesitated. Because Suzaku believes himself to be a sinner deserving of punishment, he could not self-righteously condemn to death a person trying to punish him.

Anya's signing on his behalf could be interpreted as an action similar to Euphie's 'love me!', though obviously not as dramatic. Suzaku accepts it because it is someone else who is affirming Suzaku's goodness, his right to life. Suzaku's refusal to condemn the other person wasn't because he didn't want to make a decision, but because he does not consider himself worthy of judging his own fate.

As a leader of other people, Suzaku has no troubles deciding what is right (see the end of turn 08). As a judge of himself, the same cannot be said.