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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 791 63.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.80%
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-30, 19:47   Link #3401
eaglei3
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Originally Posted by Freya View Post
Wait what? Where did Kallen, Toudou and Kaguya come from?
Tohdoh seemed to be basically be about to say "Don't tell me that is Suzaku" when Kallen cut him off and said "That's Zero" while tearing up. As for Nina... I don't know if she knows it is Suzaku, but she would definitely know it isn't the same Zero.
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Old 2008-09-30, 19:56   Link #3402
Freya
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Originally Posted by eaglei3 View Post
Tohdoh seemed to be basically be about to say "Don't tell me that is Suzaku" when Kallen cut him off and said "That's Zero" while tearing up. As for Nina... I don't know if she knows it is Suzaku, but she would definitely know it isn't the same Zero.
Mmm I guess. Regardless, theres a handful of people who know rofl.
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Old 2008-09-30, 20:04   Link #3403
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
This is nothing but platitudes and conjecture…Because Shirley died, or Nunally suffered, or someone close to him had to pay a personal price Lulu adopted this change…It’s only because we as viewers side with Lulu’s friends or Zero’s acquaintances can we have such a smug disposition toward what Lulu is trying to achieve verses what the others are…Lulu is no less arrogant or ignorant than his father or his brother…He was just the victor in the battle of wills and to that victor goes the spoils of subjective meaning…Lulu was just a sum of his experiences and he used that fuel and hatred of his father as a vehicle to get him the power and the opportunity to take advantage of an ever-shifting goal…Charles plan was for more grand and universal which in theory was also righteous in tone, but he was a sum of his upbringing and hated a world of lies…Schniezel was probably the sanest of the 3 but his jaded lack of desire to accomplish anything made for a more sweeping ideology that would sacrifice mankind without any grand meaning behind it other than preserving it…
Hey, don't get me wrong, I agree. Lelouch's death was unnecessary, I defended Charles' Ragnorok when it was happening, and there's no way in hell I believe the epilogue's happily ever after. I don't even buy Lelouch's logic for 'tomorrow will be better than today' really. My point though, in that post, was that Code Geass is not about politics. Despite the number of stabler political configurations with which Code Geass could have ended, none of them would have been perfect either, right? It's a bit futile/puerile/facile for an anime to end in utopia. What Code Geass is about, though, is Lelouch, and thus an ending which served both as a close to his story and an expression of his convictions is more than fitting.

Quote:
So like I said, people can eat this $hit up and it’s obviously their right…Not all anime is meant for such scrutiny and at it’s core anime is a visual medium first so if people love what they love primarily based on the visual delight or endings that don’t bruise or challenge audiences, then more props to you…But I think there is a certain sophistication level in many of us who watch this show (Not that you aren’t one of them), and that level doesn’t make the whole Lulu sacrifice thing that awe-inspiring to all of us…These servitudes are simply that, self-aggrandizing themes hidden in the motif of understanding and pathos…Knee-jerk emotional pleas that somewhat betray established sensibilities shown in S1…So yeah, it was kinda cool, the whole death scene and yeah I’m sure for a few years the world can be safe until the next a$$hole emerges, but if you want me to have faith in that world and Ougi is it’s leader along with Suzaku and Nunally (Not to mention a totally suppressed Schnizel) then pardon me if I don’t keep a few rice-farmers in my rolodex…
:P Not that I'm all too concerned about your standard of sophistication, but you are almost certainly misrepresenting me. I agree that Lelouch's death was by no means the perfect answer. Nonetheless, Lelouch's sacrifice was awsome, and this is why: it was the final realization of consistency for his character. Lelouch has spent this entire series being (as you stated succinctly above) arrogant and ignorant about everything. This bothered me not so much in and of itself, but because the whole time he was spouting platitudes about the strong not abusing the weak, rejecting his father's 'inequality', and proclaiming himself evil to overcome evil, he never truly lived up to those words, and as a result he caused many innocents to suffer. However, in the end finally, Lelouch was able to give those words meaning: forsaking himself for using his geass to abuse others, he truly made 'evil' take a few steps back with his 'evil'; believing that people are equal in striving for happiness, he opened the world so they could get to it, and left forcing neither good will or ill will upon them.

And, furthermore, even beyond the final expression of his convictions--he had not forgotten those innocents. His first thought was of Shirley smiling. The happiness which like glass he had overlooked; and then which like glass he had shattered--he could finally rest alongside it. For Lelouch as a character, this ending is amazingly complete--so no, I'm not asking you to have faith that the world will be alright. Just have faith that Lelouch is done, done, done.

Quote:
Rice farmers who drive haywagons, and spoil the impact their intended deaths could have had on a sophisticated audience… Rice-farmers that appease each side of the coin and open the door to more studios raping instead of a closure that simply tells the story it wanted to tell…Both sides should be happy right?? I’m usually happy when I watch something that doesn’t treat me like a 3 year old that needs to be given a cookie to be quiet…S1 seemed like it was actually crafted by grown-ups and S1 certainly didn’t do that much appeasing if any, but this ending catches me at a point in my life that I’m beyond the BIG PICTURE where everyone lives happily and fights for a Pollyanna future (Give me the micro-story that perhaps the timeslot change ruined)…I just want to be told a good story that ends in fulfillment…If they wanted to leave the ending open and me to interpret whatever the hell I want they should have hired my a$$...I’m a pretty decent writer ya know and I think my fanfic would have been just as good as the animesuki member they hired to write r2^^…
Heh. Haven't you seen my screenshots? There's no doubt that farmer isn't Lelouch. No matter how the unsophisticated audience tries to spoil the impact, and no matter how hard they try to imagine that there's a side of the coin which appeases them, you don't actually have to buy into their bullshit. There's an ending, and it is firm, and it's Lelouch's death. Now as for the rest, I do agree that Code Geass has questionable plot elements. Certainly events stumble forward, rushed and unclear. I must insist, though, that the writing is far and above beyond any run of the mill fanfic--when I think back upon it, Lelouch's characterization has been inimitably handled. In fact, I might run through an analysis of the entire series some time.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-09-30 at 20:17.
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Old 2008-09-30, 20:24   Link #3404
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Above is fairly obvious. Note also your remark about dark eye shadows been a sign of death. Immortals never recieve dark eye shadows when they are killed, as seen in previous instances of C.C. and V.V.'s deaths. Charles did not have dark eye shadows upon shooting himself either.



No evidence supporting this whatsoever. As has been earlier explained, Charles was shown to be immune to geass before he died. The animation used when Lelouch's geass was entering Charles' eyes before he shot himself was explicitly reused later in the episode when Lelouch tried to geass him again upon realizing he was immortal.



To complete the Ragnorok Connection. This was stated flat out in Turn 21.



Heh.



This fact discourages the 'Code Geass" theory. If Codes do not require a 'signature' to transfer, i.e. some sort of marker which would indicate that the Code matches with a geass's contractor, such that Codes are generically inheritable to any geass, then there is no logical reason why inheriting a Code from another contractor would not eliminate your geass.



She would, however, have to lose her memories. This would be true in Charles' case too. In both cases, it didn't happepn.



There's actually no proof for this statement. Dual geass eyes are not sufficient to complete the inheritance, as we saw in the case of Mao.



Her only resistance was some physical interference. Charles would likely have continued without her cooperation had Lelouch not destroyed the Sword of Akasha.



No. If he had done this they would have shown it. Note also that Marianne dies at the same time as Charles--this indicates both that it was Jupiter that killed them, not Lelouch, and that Charles' death had nothing to do with his Code.



True.



Refuted above.



Here's a question. Why is Kallen happy? The man she loved is dead. Someone she'd been willing to die for. Could it be that she'd found something to live for? That she appreciated Lelouch's sacrifice for the world? Maybe she was looking forward to tomorrow. That sounds like it'd be what Lelouch wanted, doesn't it? That sound's pretty likely to be true.

Hm...well, in that case... So then--maybe, just maybe--couldn't that be the same for C.C.? Shocking, I know, isn't it?!

But actually, to end this:



Hahaha, you (and so many others) wish. The truth is, plot holes in this show though there may be, there are none as to Lelouch's death. The ending is perfectly unambiguous. Here, a present for you:

Spoiler for cart driver:


This is a zoomed in pic of your beloved wagondriver-chan. I printscreened it myself from my copy of Turn 25, but I really encourage you guys to all go check. The first thing I'd like to point out to you all is that wagondriver-chan is not masked at all. Sure he's wearing a pretty spiffy hat, but as you can clearly see the line for his mouth, you'll realize that there's nothing at all covering his face.

The second thing, then, is something you should really be able to pick up following from that. Wagondriver has whiskers! White ones at that. Nice, scruffy, old-guy whiskers all over his firm jaw and manly chin. Ooh I wonder, what could that mean?

So sorry, guys. That man is not Lelouch. If it brings you any consolation, though, I'll totally support this new C.C. x Old Peasant Dude from the Countryside for all eternity pairing if you guys decide that's really what she needs for happiness.

Ah, I'll address this briefly as well:



Now, now, wingdarkness. :P We needn't cling to hope which isn't there. Although I don't quite appreciate the way you're disparaging Suzaku's competence and capabilities, the real issue here is that all of you complaining on the grounds of politics have missed the big picture. Charles said it in 21: "Ultimately, good will and ill will are two sides of the same card." Schniezel asked correctly in 24: "You, who have continually denied people their will, have come here to approve of people's will and existance?" What Lelouch believes in isn't world peace or harmony. What he believes is that tomorrow will be better than today, because it is driven forward by people's desire to seek happiness. As such, he--who has caused many tragedies, and gotten where he is, only through enforcing his will over others--removed himself, so that everybody could move forward on their own two feet, without his good will and ill will to bind them.
And, as usual when he's bored enough to post, Sol won the thread. As your prize, you get a hat. But not THE hat.
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Old 2008-09-30, 20:28   Link #3405
Worriors1
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Fudge. If someone wins it, no one will talk on it.

This sucks. I normally only hang around here, on this thread area, to chat about stuff like this.. And now that it's over..

Dang, I need a new show to watch.

Also, everyone stop with your walls of texts please, it's really blowing things up.

There's nothing else to debate guys, the show is over. Anything else will be revealed in magazines, or dramas or something. Now, we can all chat nicely and have short, sweet debates, or we can continue our mass rampage.

Pick your poison!

(Just kidding, just kidding.)
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Old 2008-09-30, 20:45   Link #3406
Zarxs
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Anybody know the name of the music that was playing during this scene?
Spoiler for Image:
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Old 2008-09-30, 20:50   Link #3407
acrana
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Dude I can't wait for FMA2...grown-up Winry for teh win^^...

I guess Gundam 00's director will direct this aswell? And if Code Geass EVER comes back I would hope it would be at the serious timeslot...
No its based on the manga is all, the anime splitted from the manga around chapter 15.
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:09   Link #3408
White-Snow-Empress
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Originally Posted by z0rr023 View Post
is Sunrise also producing FMA?? -.-"..............
hope After Gundam 00 (which I don't remember anymore, what's the storyline.....) after FMA2, they will make another OVA or sequel of Code Geass, probably if lulu is not dead, the main character can be lulu's son with CC..........hehe -.-"

btw, in the last ep, Nunnaly said I can't bear a future without you, brother...
then, we can see Nunnaly lives happily ever after with zero and even shaking hand with ogi..........with means, Nunnaly can bear a future...which is contradicted with what she said before.....

also, CC asked lulu about bla4x.......which we don't know, whether she's speaking to herself or not.........and CC looks happy......not the same CC who's crying in the church......

anyway, this is anime, they can bring anyone back to live as long as there is "no official statement from Sunrise ".......according to the popularity......or just kidnap the writer and director...hehe -.-

hope Code Geass can get another OVA or sequel.......
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And about their son... what I said before, a green-haired, purple-eyed baby, what could be more charming?
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:25   Link #3409
hero147
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Lelouch could be dead, Lelouch could be alive. (Though, I am in favor of him being alive). In my point of view, evidence suggests that he is alive. Though there are plenty of opinions and speculations to why he is alive, I am going to name the one I think is most powerful. If he was indeed dead, why would CC say that "Geass making you isolated is "inaccurate?"" when she herself ended up alone because of Geass? Lelouch also somewhat ended up alone as well.

Though I do have doubts about how Lelouch got the code, I simply cannot see him as deceased, even if he had those shadows in his eyes. One thing to mention about those shadows under the eyes is that Everytime a character had them, it was because their bodies were probably close to dying. I said body...And remember immortals have almost the same body has mortals, they still bleed, so losing that amount of blood, Lelouch could also gain these "shadows". I think the only reason we never saw the immortals with shadows under their eyes was because all of the immortal deaths were quick and relatively painless.
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:27   Link #3410
nchan
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Originally Posted by Aethos View Post
Lelouch is probably telling Light right now.

"That's how you do it right."

LoL. Lulu died with dignity and honor, and he's not afraid to die. Light on the other hand, is just so pathetic. I like everything about Light until when he got caught and ran away like a wuss.
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:35   Link #3411
npal
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Heh. Haven't you seen my screenshots? There's no doubt that farmer isn't Lelouch. No matter how the unsophisticated audience tries to spoil the impact, and no matter how hard they try to imagine that there's a side of the coin which appeases them, you don't actually have to buy into their bullshit. There's an ending, and it is firm, and it's Lelouch's death. Now as for the rest, I do agree that Code Geass has questionable plot elements. Certainly events stumble forward, rushed and unclear.
Now, since most things have been said, I'll just add a few comments.

First of all, you seem to have a spectacular eyesight most people wouldn't dream of, cause for the life of me and having 20/20, I can't really imagine the old man with the whiskers in that vague screenshot. And I believe that goes for many other people around here, or you're saying everyone who believes that Lelouch is that farmer is 1)blind or 2) retarded enough to mistake an OBVIOUSLY OLD man with WHISKERS for an ambiguous driver whose details were left out... Permit me not to stand in awe at that assumption.

Furthermore, the "unsophisticated" crowd... Now... who's that? The one's shouting "Lelouch is done, done, done/DEAD, corpse, finito" or the one's screaming "Lelouch is alive, alive you hear?!" You're donning the wrong mantle here. The way I see it, both sides have arguments. Some arguments like the Charles Code issue, even I can't agree upon, I consider it to be unfounded and even denied based on the facts at hand.

If the ending was as firm as you think, the basic fact that so many people think otherwise (besides the ones who scream from both sides "If Lelouch is really alive/dead, this series is crap") should be at least a tiny bit troubling. Also, seeing as the core facts on which the discussion of whether Lelouch is alive or dead are ambiguous enough to cause different interpretations, what's the point of even discussing about it? Oh, yeah, I forgot, the other side is pretty stupid, right? We've all seen how firm this ending is, having caused this huge debate in the first place. Oh... right... The other side is just unsophisticated fanboys/girls... I guess that's why they didn't see the whiskers either.

Having accepted that Code Geass DID have unclear or ambiguous parts, just what is it that forbids you to accept that the greatest debate of the series is based on ambiguous parts as well? Could it be a purely irrational preference that you have deemed is only a characteristic of that horrible other side? You know, the unsophisticated one?

The real point is that basing whatever arguments on ambiguity has little value or meaning anyway. So, what's left is up to the person, his interpretation and his belief. That multiple people in their need to prove their point create arguments that really aren't there (Charles), from otherwise solid facts, doesn't disprove the point that there's a core problem : some elements are for MANY people ambiguous enough to allow them to choose a different interpretation, until of course proven otherwise.

Would I have preferred an obvious and solid ending? I actually hate ambiguity, I'd rather have something solid, no matter how terrible it is. Ambiguity usually only helps the company in question further milking the merchandise if necessary. Did I get one? Not really. I got one that probably points to Lelouch really sacrificing himself to create a better place. But I have enough room to be able to believe otherwise, that in fact Lelouch does destroy and creates worlds, but does so as he always had, staging the right play for the people. Even if Lelouch did or did not know he had an ace up his sleeve after his execution, it's still his usual tactics, he sets the stage, pays the price (Lelouch always knew that prices had to be paid, but it's possibly the first time I can recall that it's the King and not a pawn who pays that price) and pulls the stunt, in this case disappearing from the world, possibly forever, and handing the same punishment to Suzaku, who must also disappear from the world and assume the identity of Zero until his death. So, how's that so terrible or so OOC that it just couldn't happen no matter what?

Everything from Karen to C.C's reaction easily fits both accounts. Karen believes Lelouch to be dead ANYWAY. For the world, Lelouch is dead ANYWAY. The ONLY reaction that can be intepreted differently is C.C.'s, since in reality, only she and Suzaku would know the whole truth in both scenarios.

In the end, based on ambiguous elements, people are free to choose what suits them most. Obviously, it's easy enough to counter something like "Charles Code" theory, but other than that, it's pretty open to interpretation. So, next time, instead of ending calling and/or implying that the other side is blind/retarded/unsophisticated/people who sprout "bullshit", you know... those terrible people, it'd be best to just relax and think it over. The universe will not die a horrible death if people as intelligent as you are allowed to believe in something different than what you believe. And yes, I'll say it again, since the core problem is ambiguity and lack of knowledge one way or another on various issues regarding Geass mechanics, it really is just a matter of belief.

And with this, I end my statements regarding Lelouch's death. And to those who remember me from the long and forgotten past (/looks around... Don't see many of you...but whatever...), I have returned ^^.
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Last edited by npal; 2008-09-30 at 21:39. Reason: fixed a few typos *nodnod
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:44   Link #3412
zalem
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Are the Japanese fans fighting this much over the Lelouch being alive/dead thing or do they pretty much lean one way or another? I'm curious...
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:48   Link #3413
npal
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LOL, all I know is that I come in here and this heated thing goes on for 170 pages :P I don't go around 4chan and the like, so I really can't say what the Eastern population thinks, I was only taking the people on various english blogs and the people getting messy in here into account. If the Japanese fans think differently, that would be an interesting matter to discuss.
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:50   Link #3414
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I was feeling kinda down after this ending, so I went back and watched 0080 and lifted my spirit lol. Despite the heart touching scene with Nunnaly at the end, and the sad music, nothing compares to
Spoiler for 0080:


At the very least death at the end of CG obtained world peace. Even if it's just temporary it's still something, instead of being completely pointless.
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Old 2008-09-30, 21:50   Link #3415
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
LOL, all I know is that I come in here and this heated thing goes on for 170 pages :P I don't go around 4chan and the like, so I really can't say what the Eastern population thinks, I was only taking the people on various english blogs and the people getting messy in here into account. If the Japanese fans think differently, that would be an interesting matter to discuss.
i would also think this would be an interesting thing to know. For one thing the Japanese are from a different culture where 99% of the population do not ascribe to the Judeo-Christian beliefs....so this whole lelouche stuff sacrificing himself as a mimicry of jesus is something they might not buy at face value. I know I didnt.
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Old 2008-09-30, 22:01   Link #3416
npal
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Well, the other point that I read somewhere is that for the Japanese, seppuku (basically ritualistic execution/suicide) is/was acceptable as a form of repentance/accepting responsibility for grave errors/perserving one's honor. I AM NOT certain about that but IF it's true, Japanese fans could have that or the other, too, as far as ethics go. Anyone can correct me on this one anyway, not sure if it's true.
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Old 2008-09-30, 22:07   Link #3417
Naraku
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I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but what is the name of the song playing as Nunally is crying / Lelouch is dying the one that keeps going until the ED kicks in...

And is it a new unreleased single?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 2008-09-30, 22:08   Link #3418
mrboldy
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does anyone know wat music they were playing near the ending?
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Old 2008-09-30, 22:09   Link #3419
Eurys
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
Though there are plenty of opinions and speculations to why he is alive, I am going to name the one I think is most powerful. If he was indeed dead, why would CC say that "Geass making you isolated is "inaccurate?"" when she herself ended up alone because of Geass? Lelouch also somewhat ended up alone as well.
Didn't she discover feelings and emotions again thanks to Lelouch? I think it was the point of her fight with Kallen: she still cares, she's still human. And Lelouch never was alone, he had CC at his side and in the end, he died close to the two people who mattered the most and understood him, Nunnally and Suzaku.

Anyway, in my perfect ending, Lelouch dies...no way I cried so much over a fake death
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Old 2008-09-30, 22:10   Link #3420
Magin
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hm, I'm curious about one thing-

How long was lelouch actually Emperor for? I don't think it could've been much longer than 4~5 months, even with all the timeskips

if this were to continue, people will remember it as the dark before the dawn... but then, eventually forget about all that too as more crises arise. Such is human nature due to short lives, sadly... a peace though, if temporarily, being obtained was what it was all about

and a few years down the road, lelouch sees from wherever he is that all his hard work was for nothing....
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