2009-10-28, 08:49 | Link #303 | |
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2009-10-28, 13:01 | Link #304 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I completely disagree. Your number 1, number 4, and number 5 are all called "being a protagonist", and by your definition I could consider a large amount of beloved and fantastically-written characters Mary Sues.
Haruhi is good at everything because of what she is. This is justified. Her godhood, too, is justified... it's actually a huge problem for everyone else, and the driving force of the plot is to stop her godhood from blowing up everything. Not a Mary Sue. These are the definitions I use: -Flawless, and thus inhuman (this is far by the most important one) -Good at everything they do without justification -Demands an unfair amount of attention from either the plot, the rest of the cast, or both -As a result of the three above, poorly written And if a character has realistic human flaws, I cannot consider them a Mary Sue. For that matter... a Mary Sue is an utterly negative character type. It cannot be done well, and if a character is likeable and/or well-written-and-characterized, they are by definition not a Mary Sue. No one in Haruhi pre-Disappearance is a Mary Sue. |
2009-10-28, 13:33 | Link #305 | |||||||||
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Nanoha lost her first two or three fights to then-villainous Fate. Shana has been clearly outmatched in plenty of her battles with Hecate. Goku lost to Cell. Ichigo got utterly owned by Aizen. Haruhi and the SOS Brigade never lose. Ever. Meanwhile, even the likes of Superman and Batman have lost some fights that they've been in. I know, because I read some of them. Protagonists don't always have, or are, the solution to every problem (Number 4). Quite often, protagonists have to arduously search for the solution. And finally... protagonists have the perfect, or almost perfect, life? (Number 5) This is coming from a NGE fan? My 1, 4, and 5 criteria are all perfectly acceptable ones for trying to determine if a character is a Mary Sue or not. Quote:
Or perhaps these "fantastically-written" characters are not as "fantastically-written" as you think, Kaisos. A "fantastically-written" character typically doesn't have everything fall neatly, and comfortably, into his or her lap, and never have to really struggle or work for anything. Quote:
"Being good at everything" is pretty much one of the key aspects of most Mary Sues. Quote:
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This is why I don't view a Mary Sue as necessarily a bad character. It's all about how that character type is played. Quote:
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Edit: Tell you what, Kaisos. In the interest of fairness... I'm willing to say that Tanigawa comes just short of making a few of his character's Mary Sues, and it's by doing this that you get the sort of widely beloved characters that actual Mary Sue creators hoped for with the creation of their Mary Sues. Tanigawa has a pretty good idea of when and where to draw the line: Sigh made just about the entire cast look a little bit worse, and that ensured that none of them came off as an effortlessly perfect Mary Sue. But... I don't know if it's much point in fighting the "Haruhi Suzumiya is a Mary Sue" argument. I've seen it a fair bit on other boards. In fact, IIRC, I once read somebody write "Haruhi Suzumiya and Tenchi Misaki are the two biggest Mary Sues in all of fiction". She gets this reputation because she's good at virtually everything, she never loses, and she gets away with an awful lot of borderline criminal activity. Instead of fighting the idea that Haruhi, Tsuruya, and/or Kyon are Mary Sues, perhaps it's a better idea to argue that a Mary Sue can be wrote well. Just an idea.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-10-28 at 14:08. |
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2009-10-28, 16:51 | Link #306 | |
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Also, I already said, but she don't stole as much attention as you say. Right, she has two books (4 and 5) focused on her and have much more short storys developing her then Mikuru (and Itsuki). However, she don't drives the plot as you says. She had some storys at Vol.6 and 8, but in Vol.8 Haruhi is developed in the same storys and have some more for her in the 6th book. (Vol. 6 was well divided, one story to Yuki, one to Mikuru, two to Haruhi and one to Tsuruya(shared with Haruhi)). Also, as I said before, the highligh Yuki is after Disappearance is desired. Otherwise, it would appear the book didn't have any effect in the Status Quo. That is why she is so important, she is still under Haruhi, but, now, she is above Mikuru (exept for character specifc storys). Sorry for the fanboy rant. Lets back to the usual discussion... that should be general characters. Wasn't we discussing Asakura? |
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2009-10-28, 16:59 | Link #308 | |
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Kaisos' criteria are far too strict, in my mind. Almost anything can be "justified" or rationalized - heck, you're doing it right now with Nagato. If a character is good at everything, that's a Mary Sue-ish trait. Period. That's why it's generally a bad idea to make a character good at everything... it can make a character seem overbearing and tiresome. This is why I was glad that Haruhi's weakness as a movie producer was on full display in Sighs. It gave her something that she wasn't good at for a change (or, at least, had some shortcomings at). That makes her a bit more human, and hence relatable. However, it's the only real exception thus far.
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2009-10-28, 17:13 | Link #309 |
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Hey, I never said Kaisos's was betther then yours!
Please, don't missunderstand me, I think your criteria has some flaws (as pretty much everything). I agree with Kaisos "flawless" (or nearly flawless) is a Mary Sue traid, and that was not in yout list. (tough 2nd criteria is close enough) I agree with you justifying might not be enough (as everything can be justifyed), however I agree a good justification can make the most idiot ideas/plot good. Mary Sue-ness is very subjetive. For some, being a Mary Sue already means the character is poor writen (Kaisos thinks like that). Then, I believe no Haruhi character is a Mary Sue(exept , maybe, for Tsuruya, tough it might becasue she hadn't enough screen time yet). However, for others, like you, "Mary Sue" is just a collection of traids that usually endds in a bad character. Then, some Haruhi characters can be Mary Sues, in my opinion. (I wouldn't put Kyon there, tough). Btw, your 6th criteria is very good. Some times, just analising mathematicly is not enough. It is a subjetive adjetive, after all. PP: Just a clarificcation, I am not calling either criteria, be yours or Kaisos's "good" or "bad". I couldn't without "testing" some character (I don't believe I am doing it, tough). However, neiter seems to me as "wonderful" or "shity". |
2009-10-28, 18:56 | Link #310 |
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As someone previously guilty of writing a Mary Sue character (I was 12, cut me some slack) I can honestly say I don not consider Haruhi a Sue. To me, the main traits a Sue is guilty of is not unnatural skill, power, good looks, etc, but rather ease in relations and plot. A Mary Sue to me has no difficulty whatsoever in getting everything s/he wants, and thus is not very compelling to read.
Haruhi gets a lot of what she wants, but think for a moment: Do you think she wants to put her friends through all the heartache and backbreak they have to do? Do you think she wants her friends to keep all sorts of secrets from her? And not all of the SOS Brigade even like her. Kyon often cites how frustrated he is with her, Mikuru hates being treated like a doll, Koizumi treats her as a God instead of a peer, and Yuki may not even like her at all. Herr classmates fear her, and avoid her. Mainly, Haruhi is struggling to find true happiness, and is failing in doing so, mostly because of her own actions, some of which are even out of her control. To me, Haruhi is suffering and struggling enough for me not to label her a Sue. |
2009-10-28, 19:06 | Link #311 | |
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2009-10-28, 20:11 | Link #312 | ||||||
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Thanks for the clarification.
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Well, to be fair... if any characters hit 5 or 6 of my 6 criteria, they're almost certainly a bad character. 3 or 4, though... that can be manageable. Quote:
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This is a very common line amongst Haruhi fans that comes up a lot in a lot of separate debates, I find. It might not be quite universally true, but it's awfully close... Quote:
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When I first watched the Haruhi anime, I remember saying "Um... just where's the 'melancholy', exactly?" Haruhi is lacking a source of deeper true contentment that can settle her down a bit, but she's not lacking happiness, per se. Haruhi is very close to being a Mary Sue, if she isn't one.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-10-28 at 20:23. |
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2009-10-29, 02:14 | Link #313 | |
Love Conquers All!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Suzumiya Haruhi Section of AnimeSuki, (I placed my main Otaku HQ box there)
Age: 29
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She can get away with it.
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2009-10-29, 04:44 | Link #314 |
The Last Loner
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I'm not really sure it's fair to label Tsuruya as a Mary Sue, as she doesn't get enough screen time for us to find out any character flaws she might have. Maybe she is, but I'm not terribly convinced myself.
Oh and Triple_R? You wrong that Haruhi only sucks at one thing. Haruhi sucks at TWO things: Directing movies (even though the movie was apparently still a success), and playing strategy games. Seriously, she was a TERRIBLE player in the Day of Sagittarious storyline, and this was outlined a lot better in the book than it was in the anime as Kyon actually went into very specific detail as to why she was such a bad player. |
2009-10-29, 08:46 | Link #315 | |
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I will say that Haruhi certainly didn't come across as very good at military strategy and tactics in Day of Sagittarius. That is a weakness of her's that I had forgotten, yeah. Spoiler for Slight source material spoiler:
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2009-10-29, 08:47 | Link #316 | |
Yuki Nagato Worshipper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hot, Very Hot Singapore
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Nagato is Nagato.
I like to think of it as Nagato just happening to fit into the Mary Sue trope, rather than being made to be a Mary Sue from the get-go. That said, she's still one of my favourite characters in fiction, and I would like to think that I have sampled a wider variety of fiction than most people my age. And no, my fiction does not include the likes of Twilight and Harry Potter. Quote:
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2009-10-29, 08:55 | Link #317 | |
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Because of who and what she is, it makes sense for Nagato to be perfectly efficient. That is, to say, for her to not make any mistakes of the 2 + 2 = 5, variety. But also because of who and what she is, it might be wise for her to have certain limitations. And she does in fact have at least one: socializing. She does have friends who like her, which is good, but she doesn't always express herself easily. Basically, she's perfect at what she does, but she's not perfect at everything (because many things lie outside of the boundaries of her mission). This, imo, is why Yuki Nagato is not a Mary Sue. Although, in fairness, I can see why Kaisos considers her one post-Disappearance.
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2009-10-29, 09:00 | Link #318 | |
Yuki Nagato Worshipper
Join Date: Apr 2009
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2009-10-29, 09:12 | Link #319 | ||
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This is precisely why I was hesitant, until recently, to read further into the source material. However... Quote:
So, I would recommend reading further into the novels, when you get the time to do so.
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2009-10-29, 09:18 | Link #320 | |
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Trying to explain more the "Nagato sucks at socializing", she pratically only express herself to Kyon, having to have someone to talks for her in any other situation (kyon most of time, Haruhi at Vol.8). And she don't do it right even to Kyon, he has to guess pretty much everytime. s Spoiler for "Vol.7:
Another exemple, less spoilerifc, was in Day of Sagitarious, when she wouldn't say she did, indeed, wanted to the Computer Club if Kyon haven't asked. Yes, you should. OR, maybe, you should wai for one more year, for the Disappearance. The adaption is really very good, so you don't lost that much don't reading. (but lost a bit) |
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