One Piece - Chapter 719 [manga]

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Luffy didn't "take down" anybody, though. It was Law who came to him and made the alliance proposal, not the reverse. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the WG/marines can infer that much for themselves. Remember, they never really trusted ANY of the Shichibukai in the first place (how can they, when we even saw a few of them openly betray the marines right before the skip?). Their concern comes more from two notorious pirates from the "worst generation" joining forces, not just Luffy alone. You have to include the whole package here, not just its individual contents.

The Bleeding
You talk about the whole package way to much. Luffy is the reason. Law could have told Admiral Fujitori there is no alliance and that Luffy works for him, but he didn’t. Admiral Fujitori knows Luffy is the key, thats why he is not dealing with Law. He taking Luffy down before they lose the fourth Shichbukai (Daflamingo) to the Straw Hats. Even Fleet Admiral Akainu knows who is the bigger threat.

Originally Posted by marvelB

I already alluded to this in my previous post, but the alliance hasn't really crippled Kaidou in the slightest so far. Sure, Law destroyed the SAD factory at Punk Hazard, but that doesn't mean jack as long as Caesar, the guy who created SAD, is still at large. It's really just Doflamingo who they pissed off so far, and notice that the guy already had appropriate countermeasures prepared (the fake news about giving up his title, the tournament, having Jora attack the Sunny, etc.). It wouldn't be until either the death/arrest of Caesar or the downfall of Dofla and his Smile factory that we can consider the true first blow to be struck against Kaidou.


And as far as your whole "undefeated Luffy" comments go..... well, BDK already took care of that one.

Defeat
Straw Hats getting there ass handed to them at Saboady two years ago was defeat. Watching Ace die by akainu’s hand was a defeat. If thats the best you have then I stick with what I have been saying undefeated.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Like I said above about the alliance, you have to observe the whole package here, not the individual contents. Blackbeard's crew as a whole has a great amount of importance as they're strongly implied to be a kind of evil mirror version of the Straw-Hat crew. In fact, they're all the more important now ESPECIALLY because the captain is now an emperor. It would hurt all of the build-up they're gotten over the years if one of them happens to be taken out now. Like I said, if Luffy DOES take on Burgess, it would make more sense if the two merely had a brief clash just to gauge each others' strength. Besides, I think it's pretty darn clear that Blackbeard's crew will have gotten stronger during the skip as well (and frankly, you've gotta be kidding yourself if you believe otherwise).....

Originally Posted by marvelB

It always amuses me that so many people believe this. Right, Luffy's gonna lose his companions in a series where people are rarely killed outside of flashbacks.

But basically, reread what I said above about the importance of the "whole package".

Originally Posted by marvelB

Yes, but my point was that Luffy had no beef with Burgess to begin with. If they do fight, it's going to be for the sake of beating the tournament, nothing personal. Nothing suggests that they'll be having some epic deathmatch against each other.

Oh, and one more thing:

Hmph, you may scoff now, but just you wait 'til the series' end when Buggy The Great becomes the one and only Pirate God!

The Whole Package
For a person who talks about the whole package your pretty focused on Black Beard. How about Shanks, what is his end game? What about Daflamingo and his past, Kaidou, Akoiji, WG, Ancients and their Weapons, Fleet Admiral Akainu and his reign has Fleet Admiral, Void Century, Gold Rogers and the list goes on. Talk about character build up, but there are tons of other characters and plots that have had more time in the manga then Black Beard and the crew.

Second if being the end boss makes you invincible then why even put Burgess in? Just so he can tell Black Beard that Luffy is back or strong? Isn’t that what Sentamarou did for the marines when Luffy arrived on Saboady? Luffy (the main character) watched his brother die, spent two years training, and lost a crew member already (if you consider the Going Merry part of the crew). Look at the other pirate crews out there. Kidd’s missing an arm, White Beard lost his life and Ace at Marineford. How about Marco and the remnants of the White Beard Crew (they haven’t been fairing well over the two years), the story between Kaidou and Moria, Crocodiles hand, and the list goes on. If we subscribe to the theory that you can’t touch the end boss and his goons then why even introduce Burgess now if we know nothing is going to happen? That would be a dull ending.

Third you say Luffy doesn’t have beef with Burgess, but look at what Luffy is fighting for. His brother’s fruit, why does luffy have a strong attachment to the fruit? It’s just a fruit right? What happens when Burgess decides he wants to rub salt in the wound and goes after the fruit. How will Luffy react knowing the accomplice to his brothers death now wants Ace’s Fruit? Black Beard and the crew are scouting for powerful fruit, so I am willing to bet the Mera Mera No Mi is on the list. There is your connection and your beef. I personally think things are going to get really interesting between Luffy and Burgess. Luffy has a score to settle with Black Beard and Black Beards henchmen is trying to steel Ace's fruit. Luffy needs to send his own message to Black Beard.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Defeat
Straw Hats getting there ass handed to them at Saboady two years ago was defeat. Watching Ace die by akainu’s hand was a defeat. If thats the best you have then I stick with what I have been saying undefeated.

I just refuted this "undefeated" point of yours a few posts back. Luffy lost to CC in their first encounter. That means there are adversaries who could put him in his place if he's not careful.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

The Whole Package
For a person who talks about the whole package your pretty focused on Black Beard. How about Shanks, what is his end game? What about Daflamingo and his past, Kaidou, Akoiji, WG, Ancients and their Weapons, Fleet Admiral Akainu and his reign has Fleet Admiral, Void Century, Gold Rogers and the list goes on. Talk about character build up, but there are tons of other characters and plots that have had more time in the manga then Black Beard and the crew.

None of this changes the fact that Blackbeard is end-game material. And that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be the last boss (although he may very well be). Either way, he's being reserved towards the end.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

If we subscribe to the theory that you can’t touch the end boss and his goons then why even introduce Burgess now if we know nothing is going to happen? That would be a dull ending.

No it wouldn't. You're expecting way too much way too soon. Burgess is not going to get taken down at this point, especially after he just made his post-skip appearance. That's not how you build up a credible threat, which he is.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Third you say Luffy doesn’t have beef with Burgess, but look at what Luffy is fighting for. His brother’s fruit, why does luffy have a strong attachment to the fruit? It’s just a fruit right? What happens when Burgess decides he wants to rub salt in the wound and goes after the fruit. How will Luffy react knowing the accomplice to his brothers death now wants Ace’s Fruit? Black Beard and the crew are scouting for powerful fruit, so I am willing to bet the Mera Mera No Mi is on the list. There is your connection and your beef.

Beef by association at best. But whatever happens, Burgess and Luffy are not going to have a full blown-out fight.

[grey_1960]

^
Undefeated and no I am not expecting way to much. You know why? Because none of this is new to Luffy.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

The Bleeding
You talk about the whole package way to much. Luffy is the reason.

Except that it's NOT just Luffy. See, you're missing my point again. It's an alliance between two pirates from the worst generation that the marines are concerned about, not just Luffy alone. Luffy isn't the one cooking up the plans here, Law is. Luffy is merely the brawn to supplement Law's brains. You can't just ignore one threat in favor of the other. The marines clearly want to stomp out both of them at once. Again, you're not seeing the bigger picture here.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Admiral Fujitori knows Luffy is the key, thats why he is not dealing with Law. He taking Luffy down before they lose the fourth Shichbukai (Daflamingo) to the Straw Hats. Even Fleet Admiral Akainu knows who is the bigger threat.

....Except that Fujitora currently IS dealing with Law, though? If he wanted to get Luffy first, he could have attacked him right when they first met at the bar. But notice that he took time to observe the situation and decided to confront Law at Green Bit instead. It goes back to what I said above about how you can't just ignore the so-called "lesser" threat. Again, Law is the brains behind this alliance, so why shouldn't the marines go after him first?

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Defeat
Straw Hats getting there ass handed to them at Saboady two years ago was defeat. Watching Ace die by akainu’s hand was a defeat. If thats the best you have then I stick with what I have been saying undefeated.

So I couldn't help but notice that you haven't responded to what I said about Kaidou not being crippled, but what the heck, I'll humor you anyway:


You keep going on about Luffy being "undefeated", but considering that this only the second NW arc so far (which is nowhere near over, at that), I don't think that really means much. I mean heck, I could just as easily point out that Luffy was "undefeated" in East Blue, or the early GL arcs up to his first fight with Crocodile. But so what? It's not like even those earlier victories came without struggles. You talk about the current Luffy like he's invincible or something, but.... he's not. Like BDK pointed out multiple times already, he lost his first fight with CC due to being too reckless with his opponent. Heck, even his victory against Hody at the mermaid island wasn't a complete cakewalk as the roided-up shark man tanked through most of his attacks, and even gave him a severe enough case of anemia that he needed a blood transfusion. So please don't keep speaking of Luffy as if he were some god-tier threat.....

Originally Posted by grey_1960

The Whole Package
For a person who talks about the whole package your pretty focused on Black Beard.

Because he and his crew were the subject of the debate, were they not? For what reason do I need to include anybody else?

Originally Posted by grey_1960

How about Shanks, what is his end game? What about Daflamingo and his past, Kaidou, Akoiji, WG, Ancients and their Weapons, Fleet Admiral Akainu and his reign has Fleet Admiral, Void Century, Gold Rogers and the list goes on. Talk about character build up, but there are tons of other characters and plots that have had more time in the manga then Black Beard and the crew.

Like I said above, we were just focusing on Blackbeard vs. the Straw-Hats here. I don't see any other reason to add anyone else here. Well, I DO strongly believe that Teach will eventually kill Shanks, but that's a subject for another debate, I think....

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Second if being the end boss makes you invincible then why even put Burgess in? Just so he can tell Black Beard that Luffy is back or strong?

Not quite invincible per se, but yes, a hell of a huge threat considering that we're talking about an emperor's crew here. And yes, Burgess undoubtedly WILL report to his captain about Luffy. After all, were you not arguing yourself that their potential battle would serve as a message to send to the emperor in question?

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Isn’t that what Sentamarou did for the marines when Luffy arrived on Saboady? Luffy (the main character) watched his brother die, spent two years training, and lost a crew member already (if you consider the Going Merry part of the crew). Look at the other pirate crews out there. Kidd’s missing an arm, White Beard lost his life and Ace at Marineford. How about Marco and the remnants of the White Beard Crew (they haven’t been fairing well over the two years), the story between Kaidou and Moria, Crocodiles hand, and the list goes on. If we subscribe to the theory that you can’t touch the end boss and his goons then why even introduce Burgess now if we know nothing is going to happen? That would be a dull ending.

Except that for the umpteenth time, we're focusing on Blackbeard and Luffy's crews here. There's no doubt that most of those conflicts you listed will be settled at some point before the series' end, but we'll get to them...... when we get to them.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Third you say Luffy doesn’t have beef with Burgess, but look at what Luffy is fighting for. His brother’s fruit, why does luffy have a strong attachment to the fruit? It’s just a fruit right? What happens when Burgess decides he wants to rub salt in the wound and goes after the fruit. How will Luffy react knowing the accomplice to his brothers death now wants Ace’s Fruit? Black Beard and the crew are scouting for powerful fruit, so I am willing to bet the Mera Mera No Mi is on the list. There is your connection and your beef. I personally think things are going to get really interesting between Luffy and Burgess. Luffy has a score to settle with Black Beard and Black Beards henchmen is trying to steel Ace's fruit. Luffy needs to send his own message to Black Beard.

If it's about Luffy having a beef with anyone who wants the fruit, then that could basically apply to most of the tournament participants in general, including the ones he became friendly with like Rebecca (who clearly TOLD him that she seeks the fruit's power). Whether or not Burgess is fighting for the fruit is anyone's guess at this point. For all we know, he could just be fighting for the sake of fighting strong guys (it wouldn't be the first time he did something like that either, as that was how he was first introduced in the Jaya arc). As BDK already pointed out, the only slightly credible reason for them to fight is because of Burgess' connection to Blackbeard, but it's still not a strong enough reason since it's the captain that Luffy has a beef with, not his goons.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Except that it's NOT just Luffy. See, you're missing my point again. It's an alliance between two pirates from the worst generation that the marines are concerned about, not just Luffy alone. Luffy isn't the one cooking up the plans here, Law is. Luffy is merely the brawn to supplement Law's brains. You can't just ignore one threat in favor of the other. The marines clearly want to stomp out both of them at once. Again, you're not seeing the bigger picture here.

....Except that Fujitora currently IS dealing with Law, though? If he wanted to get Luffy first, he could have attacked him right when they first met at the bar. But notice that he took time to observe the situation and decided to confront Law at Green Bit instead. It goes back to what I said above about how you can't just ignore the so-called "lesser" threat. Again, Law is the brains behind this alliance, so why shouldn't the marines go after him first?

Yes I heard it the alliance not Luffy has individual that they are worried about and I responded its just Luffy. I am the afraid your the one not understanding me.
If Law were the the real threat Admiral Fuijitori would have dealt with him right away. Instead he let Daflamingo do it. Where is he now? He was just there to pass the judgement and find out Law’s status that it. Now he must stop the bleeding before they loose another Shichibukai. Luffy is the threat because Daflamingo has Law contained.

Originally Posted by marvelB

So I couldn't help but notice that you haven't responded to what I said about Kaidou not being crippled, but what the heck, I'll humor you anyway:


You keep going on about Luffy being "undefeated", but considering that this only the second NW arc so far (which is nowhere near over, at that), I don't think that really means much. I mean heck, I could just as easily point out that Luffy was "undefeated" in East Blue, or the early GL arcs up to his first fight with Crocodile. But so what? It's not like even those earlier victories came without struggles. You talk about the current Luffy like he's invincible or something, but.... he's not. Like BDK pointed out multiple times already, he lost his first fight with CC due to being too reckless with his opponent. Heck, even his victory against Hody at the mermaid island wasn't a complete cakewalk as the roided-up shark man tanked through most of his attacks, and even gave him a severe enough case of anemia that he needed a blood transfusion. So please don't keep speaking of Luffy as if he were some god-tier threat.....

I’ll humor you anyway.
I pointed out lots of Luffy’s flaws during these arguments. I pointed out his defeat at Saboady and Marineford. I don’t claim Luffy is invincible. I claim Luffy (and Zoro) are more formidable opponent then you ever gave them credit for.

Originally Posted by marvelB

If it's about Luffy having a beef with anyone who wants the fruit, then that could basically apply to most of the tournament participants in general, including the ones he became friendly with like Rebecca (who clearly TOLD him that she seeks the fruit's power). Whether or not Burgess is fighting for the fruit is anyone's guess at this point. For all we know, he could just be fighting for the sake of fighting strong guys (it wouldn't be the first time he did something like that either, as that was how he was first introduced in the Jaya arc). As BDK already pointed out, the only slightly credible reason for them to fight is because of Burgess' connection to Blackbeard, but it's still not a strong enough reason since it's the captain that Luffy has a beef with, not his goons.

The inevitable
Luffy and Burgess will fight in the tournament and I personally think Luffy will end up taking him down. The connection, prize, Luffy's past with Black Beard, and how the tournament is setup. Ultimately Burgess and Luffy’s nature will bring the confrontation into reality.

Originally Posted by marvelB

So I couldn't help but notice that you haven't responded to what I said about Kaidou not being crippled, but what the heck, I'll humor you anyway:

Originally Posted by marvelB

I already alluded to this in my previous post, but the alliance hasn't really crippled Kaidou in the slightest so far. Sure, Law destroyed the SAD factory at Punk Hazard, but that doesn't mean jack as long as Caesar, the guy who created SAD, is still at large. It's really just Doflamingo who they pissed off so far, and notice that the guy already had appropriate countermeasures prepared (the fake news about giving up his title, the tournament, having Jora attack the Sunny, etc.). It wouldn't be until either the death/arrest of Caesar or the downfall of Dofla and his Smile factory that we can consider the true first blow to be struck against Kaidou.

The first casualty of any war is the plan.
Hows the plan going so far? Is Luffy dead? Does Daflamingo have CC’s heart back? Do you think the factory will survive the arch? How long do you think Daflamingo can keep this minor setback from Kaidou? What will happen when the factory is destroyed? What will happen when Luffy defeats Daflamingo?

[JonSnow]

@ marvel and grey_1960. I guess we're going to find out at the end of this arc. which of you two is right.I personally think that Luffy's going to beat everyone that stands in his way in Dressrosa, except Fujitora of course. Unless Burgess pulls an over powered df, he has no chance of winning or giving Luffy a good fight, that's if they clash. Bartolomeo is still the wild card in this tournament. His barriers looks like an almost perfect defense and he seems to return the individuals attack if not stronger, with his barrier crash.

[danielevo]

lets just see this chapter progress

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

I’ll humor you anyway.
I pointed out lots of Luffy’s flaws during these arguments. I pointed out his defeat at Saboady and Marineford. I don’t claim Luffy is invincible. I claim Luffy (and Zoro) are more formidable opponent then you ever gave them credit for.

No one's underestimating the strawhats. As mentioned numerous times already, we have yet to see the fullest extent of their capabilities post-skip.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

The inevitable
Luffy and Burgess will fight in the tournament and I personally think Luffy will end up taking him down. The connection, prize, Luffy's past with Black Beard, and how the tournament is setup. Ultimately Burgess and Luffy’s nature will bring the confrontation into reality.

Maybe they will fight, or maybe they won't fight. And even if they do, as stated already, it won't be a decisive fight to the finish.

We'll see how the story unfolds.

[Vajra]

I'm curious to learn more about the toy factory and the citizens that became toys themselves

[marvelB]

Okay, new spoilers are out, which means a new thread. So Gray, if you wanna continue our debate I guess we can do it over there, lol.

[LeoThugs]

All this talk about Zorro meeting / not meeting doflamingo. Luffy being able to / not able to reach doflamingo is all useless in the face of Oda's gifted plot development ability. I don't know how many of you were reading the manga during Arabasta arc. When the crew was put in the cage we were LIKE WTF. and then when Luffy got impaled by Croco we all just flipped. But now we have learnt to not underestimate Oda's amazing story telling. He WILL find a way to make any thing and any scenario happen. Zorro might fight doflamingo, get beaten, get taken to the castle, 'help himself' out, beat bartolomeo and emerge in the colloseum just as the final epic fight is about to begin.