Toradora! - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[physics223]

I never thought Taiga was selfish in the entire matter. It was just happenstance that Minori saw her break down at the exact moment she was going toward Ryuuji and so quickly changed her mind with great hurt to herself. That's why she didn't want to see Ryuuji. She didn't want to break down in front of him, because she also doesn't want to inflict pain on Ryuuji and Taiga. She put her friendship above her love, because I'm pretty sure she was holding back primarily because of Taiga.

These are two friends who care for one another deeply enough that they are willing to sacrifice at great harm to themselves for the sake of their friends. It's just sad that it's becoming a vicious circle.

[Nosauz]

I think my main problem with the show overall is that ZnT keeps on popping into my head. Though Ryuuji was more of man than Saito in the end I just feel like he doesn't add up to Saito, because atleast Saito is steadfast. The reason I bring up ZnT is because man Loiuse and Taiga are exactly the same, so it feels kinda like deja vu, Rie is great and all but when she plays the same character in two different animes its hard to separate the two. Plus Ryuuji is completely unreliable in the last couple of episodes. It fine to ride along, but Ryuuji does literally nothing, absolutely nothing to resolve the tension between him and minori, hes lazy and selfish, expecting the girls to come running to him, he has no say whats so ever in the situation, which makes me even more mad, he has a right to choose and the way the episode played out, its like hes a mindless drone.

[Kafriel]

It fine to ride along, but Ryuuji does literally nothing, absolutely nothing to resolve the tension between him and minori, hes lazy and selfish, expecting the girls to come running to him, he has no say whats so ever in the situation, which makes me even more mad, he has a right to choose and the way the episode played out, its like hes a mindless drone.

He's the one spamming Minori's phone though, he told her to come to the party over and over (and in the end she didn't) and he prevented Taiga's depression by dressing up as bear-santa (although she ended up crying...)

[nor4d]

Originally Posted by noobita

and Kitamura, The man know no shame..and I have to respect him for being that.

He is quite a strange guy wont you think? He can say "I love you" in the middle of the whole class, lay down on the floor before Taiga, walk totally naked before girls [Ami's house ep] or just like here, standing half-naked before audience

Yes, in some way i respect him very much.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

I just feel like he doesn't add up to Saito, because atleast Saito is steadfast.

Saito's the one getting turned on at the sight of any large boobs or exposed skin by any female... as awesome as Saito is, I'd say Takasu is more steadfast.

The reason I bring up ZnT is because man Loiuse and Taiga are exactly the same, so it feels kinda like deja vu, Rie is great and all but when she plays the same character in two different animes its hard to separate the two.

How exactly are they alike? Sure the "Rie tsundere" stereotype manifested itself at times, but quite unlike Louise, Taiga doesn't beat up Ryuuji at the first opportunity just because he looks the wrong way, and Taiga is more honest and more aware of her treatment of Ryuuji than Louise has ever been of Saito (when has Louise ever apologized for being stubborn, like Taiga has?).

There are similarities because afterall one can't avoid stereotyping, but saying that Taiga and Louise are the same characters is rather insulting to both of them.

he has a right to choose and the way the episode played out, its like hes a mindless drone.

As already mentioned, Ryuuji had been actively working to get Minorin on his good side, not exactly perfect in execution, but at least he does. And is it his fault that Taiga actually wants to help him? And Ryuuji fainting from Minorin's words this episode indicate that in his conscious mind, he was ready to choose Minori - it was just unfortunate that he was never even given a chance to say it.

[CaptGloval]

Now to settle that issue why Ryuuji understood Minorin's metaphor of "ghosts and UFOs" but unable to figure out Ami's not-so-subtle hints...

It's simple really, aside from the "ghosts and UFOs" being established as some personal code between Minori and Ryuuji from back in the summer vacation, Minori started her little rejection speech by making Ryuuji remember that conversation they had at the villa. Actually, I had expected him to get the metaphor and the rejection message right away, but there was actually a few seconds lag before he fully figured it out. At which point, Minori had dashed away and all he can do was collapse. Possibly the delay was due to his confused state that persisted throughout the arc.

Now, the subtlety in Ami's hints to Ryuuji had been diminishing throughout the arc, IMHO. The things she said at the party must've been the most blatant Ami could go before she starts telling him the situation as she sees it in plain words. Yet Ryuuji couldn't figure it out. I think it was because Ami had been laying hints heavily and suddenly onto Ryuuji. The father-mother-daughter thing? That came out of nowhere for Ryuuji. And of course the confused funk Ryuuji had been all along had prevented him from being introspective.

[Molenir]

Such a sad episode for all the parties. Taiga finally realizing just how much Ryuuji means to her, just as she is about to give him away. Minori who loves Taiga enough to close off her own feelings for Ryuuji, Ami who despite being obvious to Ryuuji, still can't seem to break through to him. And Ryuuji who finally gets a chance with Minori only to have her reject him before he even has a chance to confess.

Happy and fun moments, with the bird, and Taiga dancing with the bear. But so sad too. Forget Toradora, they shoulda called the show Train Wreck instead.

[LoweGear]

I really don't understand how an episode like this can get the oft-abused and poorly-understood term "Train Wreck"...

[Maciste]

Somehow, after watching episode 19, I'm convinced that even Taiga realized Ryuuji placing her before Minorin /even if Ryujji is not "fully" aware of it atm).
Ryujji: "I've already changed my clothes and I don't want to leave you by yourself". Tells a lot, imo.
She literally had to force him out of her home with sentences like "If you don't go, I'd have lied to Minorin.", "Getting Minorin to go to the party is my real present for you. So please, accept it."
Do it for my sake and he does.
Ryuuji acts subconsciously and Taiga already noticed subconsciously. In the end, she completely realized it while Ryuuji still remains dull.
Don't start a bichfight, that's just my 2 cents and maybe spawns a convo, other opinons on that matter. Thanks.

[Nukerjsr]

Originally Posted by Maciste

Somehow, after watching episode 19, I'm convinced that even Taiga realized Ryuuji placing her before Minorin /even if Ryujji is not "fully" aware of it atm).
Ryujji: "I've already changed my clothes and I don't want to leave you by yourself". Tells a lot, imo.
She literally had to force him out of her home with sentences like "If you don't go, I'd have lied to Minorin.", "Getting Minorin to go to the party is my real present for you. So please, accept it."
Do it for my sake and he does.
Ryuuji acts subconsciously and Taiga already noticed subconsciously. In the end, she completely realized it while Ryuuji still remains dull.
Don't start a bichfight, that's just my 2 cents and maybe spawns a convo, other opinons on that matter. Thanks.

No no, you are completely right.

We just all fear something. I personally fear that Ryuuji's character will completely decay and the three girls in the series will sink into depression for the next couple of episodes.

[Miles Teg]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

I really don't understand how an episode like this can get the oft-abused and poorly-understood term "Train Wreck"...

From what I have seen from different blog/forum most people use the term "Train Wreck" to simply say that the episode/series don't follow their expectation (ie for AmixRyuuji shipper this episode is a "Train Wreck"...) So this expression has already lost absolutely all of it's value, it's sad but it's like that.

I have read the comment of someone calling the episode a "Train Wreck" because he was feeling sad after watching the episode

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Yeah you got a point . i agree with you .
We can't change the story except in our dream , the author is the author , its him the god of Toradora .
Just watch and say our opinion , its like that .

The author is a "HER" ... and despite the category of the publisher, she really isn't writing a "shounen" title .... it seems more seinen or even josei. Within that lies some of the problem for some viewers who arrive expecting a boy-focused 'harem choice' story and instead get something more like "Honey&Clover" or "Hataraki Man". For some, it is expanding - for others, it seems like they're outside their comfort zone.

[Kafriel]

I actually expected the guy to fall in love with all the girls instead of the opposite happening, I don't complain as a good episode always tastes best with a heavy dose of surprises

[Melchizadek]

I think being rejected by Minorin is going to cause Ryuuji to do a lot of looking at himself and the people around him in the next few episodes. Hopefully, he'll finally notice all those things he keeps missing. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing some character development from him.

[PNGO]

I'm hoping for a random ending and would hate to see a Ryujji X Taiga ending, but this show obviously will end up like that.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

How exactly are they alike? Sure the "Rie tsundere" stereotype manifested itself at times, but quite unlike Louise, Taiga doesn't beat up Ryuuji at the first opportunity just because he looks the wrong way, and Taiga is more honest and more aware of her treatment of Ryuuji than Louise has ever been of Saito (when has Louise ever apologized for being stubborn, like Taiga has?).

There are similarities because afterall one can't avoid stereotyping, but saying that Taiga and Louise are the same characters is rather insulting to both of them.

Maybe he had in mind ZnT novels?

In novels as you know Louise and taiga are actually similar as they both develop, but anime treats them differently. In anime Taiga still gets her development while ZnT anime cares mostly for fanservice and skips most of development away, thus leaving Louise pretty much the same as she was in the beginning.

So yeah, talking about novels Louise and Taiga ARE similar. Talking about anime - no way. They are way too different juts like different is novel Louise from anime Louise.

[Tyabann]

Geh, this is why I don't read the novels beforehand, it colors my perceptions...


Really thought the ending could have been better, and they cut out the epic last scene... and all the metaphors... bah.


Still, great episode. Just wish they had kept Orange as the ED instead of that god-awful Xmas song. One of the few episodes where Orange would have been a really good ED...


I want to give this a 1 because I'm actually kinda pissed at what they changed, but it deserves at least a 7 for the "Yay, Santa~!" scene. God that was touching.

[Vexx]

Aye... you really have to put the novel events in a mental box and just ask, "did this tell a story in which the characters behaved believably given what information they were given and did the emotions ring true with their character?" In that I think it did pretty marvelously.

As far as critiquing it from an adaptation perspective, the question is "did this accomplish the *spirit* of what needed to happen to get the characters where they need to be for the final arc?" In that I think it did also pretty well though yes, it was quite painful to note the snips, reworks, and edits. Ah well, best to burrow into the novels and use those "mental imagery" clusters for that.

[Maciste]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Really thought the ending could have been better, and they cut out the epic last scene... and all the metaphors... bah.
.

Could you, or someone else, please put in a spoiler box, what in this "epic last scene" in the novel happened?
Or am I mistaken and you just meant the actual cut of the last (epic?) scene?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Maciste

Could you, or someone else, please put in a spoiler box, what in this "epic last scene" in the novel happened?
Or am I mistaken and you just meant the actual cut of the last (epic?) scene?

Spoiler for Vol 7:

Ryuuji, in the last scene of the anime, has this really awesome, short, metaphor-filled monologue that connects with his lines last episode about things being broken and able to be fixed, but with a cynical spin on it, as well as a connection to the constellation Orion, which, in the books, he had begun to unconsciously rely on for a form of emotional support.

He collapses in the cold, but somehow drags himself home, sick with a horrible fever.

He winds up in the hospital, imagining himself in a world of magic, smiting demons, all the while babbling some nonsense connected to the wrestling play they did.

His last line is "After all, haven't all the stars in the sky exploded and died already?"

Furthering the increasingly cynical tone, and completely reversing his earlier idealism.

Anyway, I thought it was epic. Too bad they cut out most of the earlier symbolism required for that scene in the first place.