2012-08-28, 09:11 | Link #30221 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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Then again, he's a doujin writer, so *shruggs* Taking pictures... Am I the only one that had a Tomitake=Ryuukishi07 theory when read that? I can see the guy taking shots of that Hinamizawa IRL and talking with the villagers. 2) Even if you deny me the right to be human, an argument cannot be undone but by reasoning. I could be a flying monkey, but more important I'm a flying monkey with a point. Your checkmate is overruled. Failure to aknowledge that will result in a headbutt to the face delivered by Will. EDIT Quote:
So, if the baby grew, it would be possible to him/her to look a lot like Kinzo. Wich wouldn't be a problem if he was supposed to be Krauss's (related directly to Kinzo) kid. So Natsuhi would've noticed. Big deal. She wouldn't admit that 'father' had a mistress, never, even in EP7 when one can be almost sure she noticed the weird ressemblance Lion-Kinzo. She'd just not think about it to avoid a headache. Also, baby would be a quarter-european. You know. Incest-product of the japanese guy. 2) That's the problem. By following the story nobody knew a lot about Battler. Not even himself, with his amnesia. What can be said about him? He was a good guy, didn't have a reason to off his family, he'd never murder anyone anyway, and just to take it further they made him the detective who cannot be the culprit. But even then, one cannot be so sure... so the scarce theories existed. Ryuukishi pointed clearly that Black Buttler was a product of those crazy goat theories about "Battler as a culprit". They're so impossible you'd have to create a new character, cuz all the sheer OOC would destroy real Battler. Even then, people still posted them. When it was almost so clear Battler didn't kill anyone, they made him as an (evil) acomplice.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-28 at 09:36. |
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2012-08-28, 09:31 | Link #30222 | ||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Amnesia isn't something you can reconduct to a specific person Liking mystery novel is something that many people do being a speedreader is rarer. Anyway he remembered he was 18 years old, which is different from remembering the number 18. This suggests that Tohya lost his memory at that age and Battler went missing at exactly that age. While you can state that there are a lot of people that are 18 years old, this adds quite a lot to the convenience of Ikuko finding an amnesiac moldable as Battler that also casually believes to have the same age Battler had when he disappeared. Quote:
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Ikuko might be "weird" but her weirdness is completely different from Yasu's. You could say that Yasu created another personality, but at that point you could even say that Yasu is Tohya. Quote:
If we believe that she set up the fake Eva's diary revelation day in order to quench the rampart speculations on the Rokkenjima incident, as the story implies and as Yukari Kotobuki mentions, then she has other agenda, which seems to imply she wants to fix whatever damage her forgeries might have caused. Quote:
Anyway I think the main problem is the fact that many times it was repeated that Beatrice has "golden hair", as something very exotic and particular. And that would make little sense if Jessica was really as blonde as we see her. There is then the joke in EP7 about Beatrice having hair like pasta while Japanese are all "pasta al nero di seppia". This is a clear statement about the fact that Japanese all have black hair. But as usual Ryuukishi gives us mixed inputs, because Bernkastel clearly mentions the fact that she gave Erika her peculiar hair color. Which means Erika in the gameboard is actually supposed to have blue hair. Of course she's a fictional character, but then... aren't they all?
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2012-08-28, 11:21 | Link #30223 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Besides, we don't know that's actually OOC for Battler. Oh, sure, it's out of character for the Battler character we're familiar with, but that doesn't mean anything. He's a character, just like Kanon. His personality is a fictional construct. It may be based on real information, but we don't have enough of that real information ourselves to guess how accurate the portrayal actually was. It's possible Battler-Prime had a motive. But there's no evidence for one. That he lacks motive and inclination in his story form is not evidence that he didn't have any, but no positive evidence exists to suggest otherwise. Yet the author of the work pushes forward a notion that, based solely on what we know about the original character, doesn't appear to make sense. How can we really know Black Battler isn't a closer portrayal of Battler-Prime than Message Bottle Battler? We know almost nothing about Battler-Prime to say. Quote:
Meeting a person with amnesia by chance is unlikely. Meeting a specific and particular person with amnesia by chance is essentially near-impossible.
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2012-08-28, 11:31 | Link #30224 | |||||||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Plus, Ange's memories of Battler do seem to match with his character in the message bottles. Quote:
But seriously now, it never was meant to be any hint towards Battler being the culrpit. Black Battler personifies the idea the concept of a culprit Battler and he's plainly a theoretical existence created by all the people who believe Battler is the culprit. There's nothing more into him. But I still believe it was all just to avoid making new characters for the game. Clones are cheaper. Quote:
Okay, the Battler-Ange-Kyrie hair color is a whole different story. That might raise some understandable questions (come to think of it, the Lion-Jessica too?). Quote:
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And since you're not a person, you have no human rights either, so nothing obligates me to acknowledge a monkey and argue with it on an even level. *cacklecackleCacklecackleCackle* Quote:
And after all, the message bottle universe was the only one we ever got to read in the first place, and I think we have a pretty clear image of the Battler in that. Quote:
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2012-08-28, 12:14 | Link #30225 | |||||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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-I think is something about the fair play. Wasn't Ryuukishi saying since the begining that not presenting clues and then trying to put an answer out-of-the-blue is cheating and he wouldn't do it? One can say a lot about Ryu's troll behaviour, but he GAVE us all the clues. You know, 'It's forbidden to present a puzzle without giving the player all the pieces' is practically red in his game, TIPS and interviews. If we don't aknowledge at least that the clues were presented, it's better to step back and not bother. Otherwise crack theories will be absolutely valid. Quote:
The author put also a lot of the goats sprouting nonsense in EP8. And, I repeat, evil-Battler is a call out to the fans that insist in throw around 'Battler culprit theories', followed by a similar line to the one that Bernkastel threw in Tanabata Tip ("It's because you like them that kakera with tragedies like this are created."). So, let's say, the fandom is rabid about 'George as culprit theory'. Black George is coming to town for that. (I actually see George as more possible culprit that Battler...) Quote:
Saying that it's valid because it was shown somewhere will make next thing we say that Kinzo and Natsuhi were really having sex, because even if it hasn't been clued and already jossed by several statements, it was an in-game theory and Bern said it, so who cares? Adultery is so Kinzo's MO, anyway. Quote:
2) 'It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard'. Mind you, it doesn't say anything about the obsever being limited to be human Besides, that means that you're arguing and losing with a flying monkey. That's just so lame of you, Capitain, running away of a confrontation with the old and clichèd 'You're not worthy'. Let it be known that it's a coward's move. And an answer has not been provided by you, so intellectually, you're even behind me. Running away or not *ahaha.wav* 3) I agree there. Forgeries are OOC moments with some clues buried in between. Next you know, we'll be supporting Ronobato and Hanyuu-knows-what other nonsense, because Ronove said it. Black Battler represents 'mad chinaman with no basis whatsoever Theory' as a character. Quote:
You're right about the hair color. It's like a tradition in that media. Well, I put the choptsticks thing just to prove a point: that we can discuss anything as long as it can pottentially have a deeper meaning. Even if it's nonsensical. Bet Ryu07 made Erika all Mary sueish to put the detective in the 'really hated' list, and effectively protect the witch side giving it supporters (even if it's just to punch Erika's face). I was personally more concerned with Battler kicking Erika that with anti-mistery scoring a point. Ryu roots for magic, as EP8 confirms XD I always find that Erika cutting heads as nonsense, but it works for the game so *shruggs*. I can say she spent at least three hours beheading five persons with a kitchen knive and extreme care of not staining her dress. Also, isn't just cool how Erika is always related to some kind of boat? I'm thinking about trick ending here.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-28 at 12:38. |
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2012-08-28, 14:12 | Link #30226 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-08-28, 14:27 | Link #30227 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Everyone who tells us anything about Battler adores and idealizes him (Yasu/Ange), or is operating off information derived from those people (Tohya/Ikuko). We don't get Eva's opinion (although we could have, apparently), and we don't have access to extracanonical information that residents of Prime would have. Bear in mind, if the Goats actually wanted to learn more about Battler-Prime from people who knew him, they could do so but we cannot. So in that sense it might be a bit unfair to be as critical of the Goats as we are, because we don't actually know how much more information they have than we do.
Would that information confirm the message bottle stories' portrayal of Battler? If it doesn't, we didn't hear anything about it. Although I do rather like the idea that Battler looks physically nothing like he's portrayed. I'm sure Yasu wanted him to be big and strong... but Ange doesn't really suggest he looks any different, so at least that detail is probably accurate or somebody would've called foul on it. At least, we'd think so.
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2012-08-28, 14:34 | Link #30228 | ||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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By the way, trollbeato IS why Battler fell in love with her and was willing to forgive her for parading him around naked on a leash. Quote:
FIRST: Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that have not been PRESENTED! Present at least one hint that was mentioned within the narrative that Bern's hair is not blue but any other color. SECOND: Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves without any clues. Bernkastel cleary says to Erika: 'My double who has the same blue hair as me'. If Bernkastel's hair isn't blue, she is trying to disguise herself! Where was that hinted within the eight Episodes of Umineko? (P.S. I feel really silly...) Quote:
But then again, wouldn't Ange show any signs of surprise at an unfamiliar Meta Battler? But then again, she was also a Meta existence. Quote:
I really don't see the reason of adding an Extra TIP right after the story has ended (that and Jessica's Killer Electric Fan too), that's why I say he had no other purpose but to be a clone in Ougon.
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2012-08-28, 15:52 | Link #30229 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I don't think that Ryukishi is a technically good artist, and I do think that the PS3 art is good, but I definitely prefer Ryukishi's art when playing the games. The expressions he draws are far better than the PS3 versions. They convey so much more information and emotion. Particularly for Beatrice's sprites, I think.
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2012-08-28, 16:11 | Link #30230 | |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 28
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A question: What's the interpretation/theory about Lambda's "real world vessel"? Pretty much every meta character has one (Bern as Ikuko's cat, Jungfrau as personifications of Knox Decalogue and Will as Van Dine's), but Lambda's is never stated.
My personal theory is that "Lambdadelta" is the name of Bernkastel's favorite toy doll (probably candy scented that Bern loves to bite) :P Quote:
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2012-08-28, 16:34 | Link #30231 | |||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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The PS3 art is retarted. I love their lineart, I love their colors, but their body postures and facial expresisons are completely retarted. It's more proffesional than Ryukishi's, but in no way better, plus it doesn't have Umineko's taste. Try comparing Maria's trollface in the PS3 and the original. Dissillusioned? Quote:
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Though having said that, it's not like I didn't enjoy reading it, it just seems kinda cheap in regard to Ougon.
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2012-08-28, 19:10 | Link #30232 | |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 28
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I just went and checked: Forgery n.XXX was published in Umineko's wiki in July 2011 and Umineko Hane was released alongside Ougon Cross in december 2011.
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2012-08-28, 19:15 | Link #30233 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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But I'm not particularly disillusioned, no, since I already didn't think the expressions in the PS3 versions were as good as Ryukishi's. Maria's PS3 trollface is definitely lacking in expression. What the PS3 art is lacking is nuance. I don't hate the PS3 art. I haven't seen all of it since I haven't played that version, but quite a few of the pictures I've seen have been nice, and polished and professional. It probably varies a bit by character. I think that, for example, Dlanor's PS3 sprites look great. But none of the PS3 sprites can equal Ryukishi's work when it comes to expressiveness. And, the VNs are written in such a way that expressiveness really matters. I've just taken a look at more of Beato's PS3 sprites, and they are very disappointing. Most of the sprites where she's required to have her mouth open look really bad, as if the mouth just got slapped onto her face, and the trollfaces I mentioned before are really lacking - they look scary in a jack-o-lantern sort of way, but IMO they fail to convey what they need to. |
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2012-08-28, 19:15 | Link #30234 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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To satirize what an evil culprit Battler would be like, which turns out to be a generic evil villain with no emotional drive. It's very similar to how he portrayed Kyrie and Rudolf in Episode 7's tea party.
That doesn't mean ryukishi couldn't have planned for him to be in the fighting game at the time he wrote it also, but there's not really much evidence for that. And why couldn't B.Battler be created for both reasons?
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2012-08-28, 19:41 | Link #30235 | ||
The True Culprit
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And since Battler Culprit Theory became EXTREMELY popular in Japan since EP6 onward, I think it's perfectly natural for Ryukishi to acknowledge the theory; perhaps Black Battler's over the top nature is a sly form of trying to discredit it.
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2012-08-29, 05:26 | Link #30237 | |||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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P.S: The Battler Culprit theory? Really? Even with the EP5 reds that Battler is innocent. Battler didn't kill anyone? People sure have a twisted imagination.
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2012-08-29, 05:52 | Link #30238 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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That being said, I really appreciate Patchwork's thematic argument against my Touya=random theory, although I'm not sure I understand it fully. Quote:
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Plus Battler was being sarcastic anyway. Even if Touya and Battler are the same person I would still take this comment of Battler's with a grain of salt. If Touya isn't Battler, and Ikuko isn't Yasu, then where's all the information to write the forgeries coming from? Quote:
Of course he could be lying about any of this. I especially suspect the part about him not remembering the incident clearly, because if (assuming he really is Battler) something really awful happened that day that he didn't want Yukari to know about then of course he'd hide it. In any case, assuming Touya really is Battler, it seems probable that Touya knew Battler's past very well and should be able to write about it. Yet whoever is writing these stories (besides maybe EP5) seems to know a lot more about Yasu than they know about Battler. Heck they even seem to know a hell of a lot more about Maria than about Battler. All other things being equal, Yasu seems to be a more likely author of Banquet and Alliance than Battler. Actually, Eva seems to be the most likely author of Banquet if not for Ange saying in EP6 that "Itouikukuro Reigonamu" wrote it. Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-08-29 at 06:58. |
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