2017-01-20, 18:25 | Link #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
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what i feel really complicated is which both the main characters while they have they unrequeted love crush over the teachers, they actually also are in love with each other but due to then being so focused on they crush(specially the girl), they just don't notice how they already pretty bonded to each other, well this is what happen when things are very messed, then we have the "flying around" peoples with they own "love problems", the lesbian friend of the main girl, the main guy having a sort of "loli look" childhood childish friend which also in love with the main guy but he is almost "whatever to her" because he already too focused on his unrequeted crush and his "gilfriend" which slowly is catching without the real intention catching his heart almost the same goes for the girl, which is slowling falling for the guy due to they strong bound.
A big mess we have here which will just gonna get worst later obvious, as long they keep in deny mode over they relationship progression things will just get more complicated, if not was "japaneses teenagers" and they classic crush over adul teachers(well honestly it's not just japan but looks like on japan is more "common in fiction" than others places), all they could need is just get over they impossible crush and just really accept which maybe they can actually really work as a real couple and they are actually having feelings toward each other(well the crush still big), whatever let's see what gonna happen later. To be honest i already read the manga and really things are very crazy here but really with a really "simple" solutions(if you not a teenager stubborn as then), but due to they personality the "simple solution will be the "last one" if they take it.
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2017-01-20, 20:50 | Link #83 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Spoiler:
Can these series not be said to complement each other, in some respects? Showing sex is obviously not the only way to tackle the topic of sexuality. Are you saying people should not watch Kuzu no Honkai at all or are you providing a public service announcement by letting prospective viewers know they should watch this series but only with certain expectations? Who decides what is designed to titillate? What if a series titilates inadvertently? Does it become shallower because of that unintended audience reaction? Who decides what constitutes being fooled? By tone and oppressive atmosphere... Perhaps Kuzu no Honkai is not as deep as Aku no Hana but does that mean it is "shallow", full stop? Do you imply that a titillating title is by its very nature shallow or only shallower, in comparison to other, deeper, series? Series which can be said to never really show teenage sex at all, showing not so much as a kiss between lovers, but are nevertheless held up as some unassailable standard for their portrayals of teenagers and adolescence. Or appear to be. Maybe I misunderstood. Does Aku no Hana titillate you, Deadite? Last edited by Verso Sciolto; 2017-02-03 at 11:50. Reason: Very late edit ... to apply spoiler tags once more and more broadly |
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2017-01-20, 21:02 | Link #84 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2016
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@Verso Sciolto sorry for getting into your conversation with Deadite, but the best you can do to fully understand what happens with this title and see why people like Deadite, Kuroageha or myself think that way, is just need to read the manga.
Spoiler for spoiler just as a precaution:
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2017-01-20, 21:06 | Link #85 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Thank you for your concern but I'm up to date on the manga and am not new to the topic(s) and you don't need to apologise for joining the conversation. Is what you wrote not in itself a spoiler? [To fully understand what happens with this title.. is that not a privilege reserved for the viewers of the series unaware of the implications or conclusions of the source, if they so desire?] Can we proceed with the conversation from there? Last edited by Verso Sciolto; 2017-01-20 at 21:15. Reason: Expand |
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2017-01-20, 21:18 | Link #86 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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2017-01-20, 21:31 | Link #87 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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In a more abstract sense I also find the questions themselves interesting in their implications about the nature and impact of Kuzu no Honkai as an ongoing animated series, in isolation and in relation to other animated series, dealing with teenage sexuality. I'll await other reactions before replying again though and will send you a PM right after submitting this ... |
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2017-01-20, 21:39 | Link #88 | |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2016
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2017-01-20, 22:33 | Link #89 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
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about the "sexualization on this serie, it's something i really like here cuz things looks like a little more "realistic" than most of the "romance"(or fake romance) where mc is a pinpy fail guy, or everyone is too shy and act like just hold hands could be the end of the world and the girl could get pregnant, yeah while i know which japan overal romance still more in "taboo zone"(but so far for what i saw the "new generation where you get peoples which still interested in romance are being much less "shy" which is good because must be really painfull to not be able to express yourself in public and act like even holding hands could be a against the laws or something like that.
That aways was my problem with "romance" in japaneses series many of then (specially harem ones don't really look like romance and just (specially in ecchi ones) for the sake of "fanservice with very poor and tiny development which can be easy forget in the next episode/chapter, here the things are more "realistic" and they really looks like actually teenagers trying to deal with they own issues what is good.
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2017-01-20, 22:41 | Link #90 | |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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Frankly, even without the sex, it feels like the more shallow people are and the more shallow their relationships are, the more people talk about "depth" and "seriousness" in them, which just doesn't make sense to me. Tangled and messy isn't the same thing as complex and deep. This so far is very much tangled and messy territory. This is part of why I mentioned Retort Pouch, made by the same author, a while ago: you want to deal with teen sexuality, why place all your focus on teens who jump into bed at a moment's notice? On both sides of the Pacific I've seen far too many shows in which quite literally everyone is either having sex with anyone that'll say "yes", having sex the moment they have even the faintest semblance of a relationship, or "not having sex" the way Hanabi and Mugi are currently "not having sex". Not one where it deals with people actually not wanting to have sex and trying to deal with their impulses instead of just indulging them all the time. My views notwithstanding, I'd love to see a serious story where the issue of sexuality is addressed by having the people actually struggle with it rather than just give in. You learn more about a desire watching people struggle with it than watching people just do it and then complain afterward. All that shows you is the potential aftermath. And it gives the completely false, albeit popular, impression that it's not something that can or should be resisted. Last edited by BWTraveller; 2017-01-20 at 22:54. |
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2017-01-20, 23:25 | Link #91 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2015
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For what it is worth, I'm not suggesting what you appear to be implying.
To take Spoiler:
Is the exploration of shallowness and shallow relationships not in itself a topic worthy of conversation or is the value judgment we attach to certain relationships as shallow ... etc. Does this need to be said? ... in other words, can't this show also be designed to have precisely this conversation and not necessarily be seen as a validation of what it choses to depict? From what I've seen so far these characters do struggle and we can question their decisions when they try to cope with feelings for which they appear to think they have no other outlet. You would have preferred an other series, more suitable for the topic, from your perspective. Edit: to ask this question directly: Are you saying people should not watch Kuzu no Honkai at all or are you providing a public service announcement by letting prospective viewers know they should watch this series but only with certain expectations? In other words. do you "wish" that people wouldn't watch this "garbage"? Is this series no more than an elaborate pun - and even if so - shouldn't people decide that for themselves? To chose whether or not they wish to be further amused, titillated or disappointed? Maybe Deadite was also already convinced after two episodes that this wasn't worth any more time... Late Edit: Late edit to add that I'll continue watching the rest of this series. Last edited by Verso Sciolto; 2017-02-03 at 11:56. Reason: 17:25 - Late edit to add that I'll continue watching the rest of this series. Feb. 4: Spoiler tags added |
2017-01-21, 02:28 | Link #92 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Maybe I really haven't watch much of some stuff, but seeing characters actually getting physical with each other is really a breath of fresh air to me. I do read some similar mangas... (hehe) but seeing similar things animated...nice. I had enough of teasing, baiting, false hopes.
That cliffhanger. *thumbs up* |
2017-01-21, 02:46 | Link #93 |
Paranoid Zebra
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Demonreach
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I would be REALLY hard-pressed to believe any of them actually genuinely "love" someone. THe show has been pretty ground-breaking in actually displaying realistic relationships instead of idealized ones.
While we can't know about Ecchan or the type of her emotions(we don't have much yet to go by in terms of her personality or level of crush), but at least with the main cast it feels like more of a teenager crush of wanting something you can't have, but that is essentially what makes it worth for them. Their "love" for the people they can't be with seems more worthy for them because they can't achieve it. Both Mugi and Hanabi seem to be quite egoistic and selfish people. They take pride in "owning" each other and the fact that those they want are unachievable hurts their ego. And that's why the things they can't obtain feel so precious to them. Because it is something they can't reach and thus its thousand times more precious and idealized. Its something they can't have and it hurts them and makes them hate themselves and others. Their relationship they have with each other on other hand would seem pointlessly mundane to each of them because they HAVE it. Will they end up realizing that they most likely like each other? Most likely yes, but I doubt it will matter long term. Simply because their interactions with each other will seem so common and mundane that they will feel its worthless. Right now they are the stars of their own melodrama, bathing in angst and doing something "forbidden" or "amoral" - its a rebellion to show their own importance, to hurt themselves over their own anger. That essentially gives them what most teenagers want - "importance". Even if the show were to end up with them becoming a "REAL" couple, I doubt it would even last because of those reasons and of what kind of people they seem to be. Hell, they would most likely end up being bored of each other, if their relationship dynamic would become "normal". Exactly because it is normal. So they are happy with the status quo they have right now. Their own little drama. The problem is that they don't seem to realize that it is starting to involve others around them now too as the end of Episode 2 shows. Emotionally hurting each other and using each other is one thing, causing hurt to others who get drawn into the mess they are in on other hand is entirely other thing. Frankly this will end bittersweet at best. They will either end up alone moving past their adolescence dramas and crushes. Maybe with some hope of starting a proper relationship with each other once they matured or something However there's also huge chance that this will end in huge tragedy. They might just end up snapping overall as they can quite clearly be destructive as well(Hanabi especially showed lots of those tendencies). I would not be surprised if the show would go all school days in the end. In that case the question would become how much damage will be left afterward, as, as I said, the plot consequences seems to be no longer limited to their interactions with each other. |
2017-01-21, 23:43 | Link #95 | |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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I did not say that people shouldn't watch this. People are free to watch what they like and having some guilty pleasures that are very raunchy indeed, I am most certainly not in apposition to seriously say that you should avoid watching a series because it has sex. I just don't like it and as I said, it's overdone. I agree that shallow relationships are a point for examination. But seriously there are so many series out there on both sides of the Pacific that examine the exact same thing, and always with people either struggling very briefly then giving in and regretting or just regretting and learning the consequences. Most crap I've seen doesn't really deal with the issue of struggling with such things because it doesn't let a person fight long before giving in. I don't wish to say that people should or shouldn't watch anything, only that I wish people could come up with better stories that deal with desires as something to be fought rather than just something to be indulged and either enjoyed or regretted. As for Hibike, honestly I haven't seen more than a small amount, but as with many shows I doubt that not mentioning and not detailing such activities means it doesn't happen. I've seen stories where sex clearly does happen behind closed doors, where sex is heavily implied to have happened, where the question is teased but never actually confirmed or denied, and also shows where it very well may be happening with some characters. Just because a girl isn't shown touching herself except to measure her breast size doesn't mean she doesn't ever touch herself. And if there's not really a reason to show her touching herself (and what I've seen of Hibike I doubt there's reason regardless of relationship drama), then it should not be shown. |
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2017-01-22, 23:47 | Link #96 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Sorry, I wasn’t starting to make assumptions at that point. I started by making assumptions from the very start. For the sake of argument. I assumed certain things from the start, when I wrote my first comment in this thread, in reply to this post:
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What if we assume that such acts are not always, for example, romantic but that sexual activity can also act as pressure release valves, for example. I’m assuming here, but you seem to be saying that human beings should not engage in such behaviour because you think there are other, superior, methods for dealing with the emotions being released. Is that objectively true or a matter of opinion? Is it an accurate reflection of your ideas on these matters? If this show shows teenagers engaging in -what is arguably their release of stress from sexual tensions and desires for which these particular teens seem to think they have no other outlet- would you label this show shallow for depicting that? How much of a delay does there need to be before you find sex acceptable? How much delay was shown here, between the moment when contemplation started and the moment physical contact was initiated? How much time had passed between those moments in-universe? What if I say that I don’t consider the sexual acts these teenagers engage in casual sex at all? Would you consider that shallow of me? Hanabi seems lost and confused and appears to want a warm body for comfort - but her thoughts behind making those decisions to embrace the body available to her and initiating that physical contact aren’t shallow. I don’t think they are anyway. Do you agree that an audience member starting a new series has the “right” to be fooled? Do you agree that “Don’t think” this is something deep like Aku no Hana and referring to source material “robs the audience of that “right”, to some extent? In a “beyond-this-point-there-be-dragons” sort of way, if I start with the assumption that a new viewer is entering terra incognito. Do I have to appreciate it when someone comes up behind me and says: Nah, don’t go there, you’re looking at an old map. I’ve already been where you are going. Can I say: “Please don’t show me your map, I don’t want to know what you’ve seen - I came here to explore. To rely on my own eyes”? I might even have caught a glimpse of a friendly dragon-lady who might make the journey more enjoyable than those the evil flowers from that other place I’ve already visited before. Would that be shallow of me? Is even the vague hint towards the “rest of the story” in the manga not already a spoiler in itself? Would it be too sensitive to see it that way? Should I avoid these threads altogether to avoid seeing comments like that? I argue that a preconditioning is taking place when someone who is unaware of the source reads Deadite’s comment. This is not the manga thread for “Kuzu no Honkai. I’m aware I’m not watching Aku no Hana because I didn’t tune in for Aku no Hana this time. I came to watch “Scum’s Wish”. It looks like I’m being told “not to think…” and having it seemingly implied that if I do think - think a certain way- I’m being fooled. The suggestion that allowing myself to be fooled, if I continue watching, has something a little bit ad-hominim-ish about it, to me. I may be assuming too much though. There is perhaps something a bit ad-hominish about the following paragraph from your own comment as well: Quote:
You wrote: Quote:
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Let’s pretend that: “… series can complement each other, in some respects, and that showing sex is obviously not the only way to tackle the topic of sexuality.” Those were among my first assumptions. Is it obvious because I say so? Do you think Hibike! and Kuzu complement each other because they each show aspects of puberty the other omits, for whatever reason? Is it possible for these characters in Kuzu no Honkai to emerge from puberty as better human beings than they were before? If they are indeed bad people now. Better human beings after having these first sexual experiences. Or are they a-priori bad people, scum, because they do what they are doing? Too soon to draw these conclusions? To whom does the title refer. Us or them? Harry Dresden saw things in Kuzu no Honkai, that Harry Dresden had rarely seen in anime. Writing in part: “THe show has been pretty ground-breaking in actually displaying realistic relationships instead of idealized ones.” In response to other elements of that post I could say that Hanabi was using Mugi as a tool for masturbation - mutually agreed upon. They are having sex with someone else while touching and being emotionally touched by someone else again entirely. Harry Dresden observes no love in the acts or the the thoughts. Is that a requirement? Now other people are getting affected by Hanabi and Mugi's search for what might well be called "coping tools". Searches for a substitute warm body, a search for comfort as well. If that is what is shown- is that shown only for titillation? Is the thought process behind the decisions omitted or are the thoughts leading to the decisions too shallow to be considered worthy of examination? You already answered that and I could say in follow up that it wasn’t an assumption but a question when I wrote about that. To inquire. What motivates people to spoil? Explicitly or obliquely? Or am I unreasonably assuming that opening for discussion is spoiling? How far ahead did Deadite look before coming tot the conclusion that Aku no Hana is a better series or that “we” are being fooled into believing that Kuzu no Honkai was not made for titillation. Is titillation shallow? Shallower? Does Kuzu arouse you, BWTraveller, and do you perhaps feel guilty about that, if so? How about Aku no Hana? Does it turn you on when you watch it? How about Reina’s thighs in Hibike? Zettai Ryouiki? Did you pay attention to that, for those brief glimpses you gave that series? As a viewer starting a series I reserve the "right" to be fooled and also reserve the "right" to be disappointed. Does Deadite’s comment quoted above not have a bit of a hint of a warning? A hint of wanting to shelter us the other viewers from disappointment? It seemed that way to me. Is regret not a valuable emotion to begin with? Lessons possibly learned in hindsight or maybe not learned but repeated. You mention it yourself but only in a sort of blasé way to say that it has been done before, to ask “can’t they show us something different for a change”? Does Hibike! perhaps fill part of that void you identify? Will you regret not taking a look now or should I regret having noticed, or regret pointing it out? Maybe Deadite witll rejoin us. Or leave it at that, for now. |
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2017-01-23, 00:51 | Link #98 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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She even has the same voice actor. Aku no Hana is disturbing and isn't titillating. That's the point Aku no Hana is to show the ugly side of teen angst. This show/manga on the other hand is conpletely melodramatic with people behaving unrealistically(I don't find this show realistic at all). I'm more in it to see the trainwreck. I don't feel guilty abouy titillation because that's one of the main things Kuzu is trying to do. If you check out the authors other works, the titillation is the primary draw. I'm not telling people to stop watching. I'm just priming people up not to get their expectations to high.
Last edited by deadite; 2017-01-23 at 01:07. |
2017-01-23, 02:25 | Link #100 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zone: Mare Tranquillitatis
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When we talk about the relationship between Hanabi and Mugi, there are people who have been there or have seen others been there and know what is it about. So I would say it isn't just to titillate. Rather than "meaning something deep", it's more like it "touches something in the depth of someone's heart". I've noticed that "deep" and "mature" have become some sort of buzzword when we praise or critizise a work, but it's "what are we actually talking about" that is more important. On the question of "why sex", since the story is still in early stage, it's hard to say what stance is it taking toward the relationship between love and sex. But at least it is treating love and sex as different, yet there is sexual frustration coming from unrequited love. Having sex in the equation is also very different from not having. So it's more of being different, and having wider possibilities rather than outright saying it's "deep". How well does it handle the topic is still too early to say. While the struggle between having or not having sex is also interesting, that is a very different issue. But if there is a work like that, then it is most likely there would be some side characters to take that very step in order to show the meaning of that choice. |
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