2008-04-01, 22:25 | Link #401 | ||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Also note that all governments will be more arbitrary towards their own citizens than others. Take Malaysia: we've got detention without trial under the Internal Security Act, but this act is only used on Malaysians, not foreign citizens. And on an aside, I'm not entirely keen on the novel being used as a source of canon/SoD/Fanon/what-have-you simply because it isn't as accessible as the rest of the animated medium - unless somebody translates it fully. Also, aren't SF tie-in novels generally considered non-canon anyway? About the only tie-in novels I've seen that are considered part of a main canon are the Halo novels, which were written with close supervision by Bungie (and Contact Harvest was written by a Bungie senario writer). Quote:
Also, as a parting shot on the mages as captains issue and Lindy's micromanaging: when 24th MEU(SOC) rescued O'Grady, 24th MEU(SOC)'s CO went along and took personal command of the mission, a decision that was much-criticised afterward by his peers, as it violated the hands-off command style of the Corps. Lindy may be guilty of this. And that's essentially my last point on a topic that is of limited relevance to my writing.
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2008-04-01, 22:32 | Link #402 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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I think I'll pass on the Soviet TSAB interpretation, ark. Nothing personal; I thumbed my nose at the people who tried to tell me Sailor Moon's Crystal Tokyo was a dictatorship-by-brainwashing, too. |
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2008-04-01, 22:45 | Link #403 | ||||||||
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If they resist, things go even better for you, from the TSAB Legal point of view. Now, they've "attacked" a TSAB officer. After you subdue her (obviously if you don't have the resources to do so, the presence or absence of the law is meaningless because you can't actually enforce it), now she's a criminal. Oh, the quid pro quos you can make... Quote:
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The determining factor is probably more on avoiding uproars then "foreigner" or "local". Malaysia treats the foreigners better to avoid international condemnation, which is not in its interest. Japan and America are more worried about their own citizens protesting. They know no one is going to place serious sanctions on them, and their own citizens will be only mildly annoyed by any mistreatment of foreigners. Extending to the TSAB, who barely recognizes the concept of "foreign", the only thing for them is their own heavily indoctrinated citizens. An "non-management" world? Who would even know if they did a few atrocities there? Who would care, any more than we really care (be honest here) about some genocide in random African country. Outta sight, outta mind. What they want to see is the TSAB sending mages to save their sorry butts. Will they care if the rescuing mage is conscripted under threat of Arcenciel to his homeworld. I doubt it. How about you. Quote:
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1) His deviation from known norms. 2) Criticism from his peers. For Lindy, we have no such references. But then, we have Hayate, who can hardly manage her unit any more "loosely". They think she did well too. I guess the TSAB just has a wide range of acceptance here. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-04-02 at 00:01. Reason: Rev 3: Added WG reply. |
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2008-04-02, 00:19 | Link #404 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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2008-04-02, 02:03 | Link #405 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I don't think we necessarily need to ascribe a malicious nature to the TSAB, even if they do this sort of thing.
Untrained mages are dangerous. Not just because "he might come after us someday" - after all, that's not likely to happen - but because you can really hurt yourself or others, even if just by screwing up, when you're playing with magic you don't understand. Even if the mage wants to stay, is it moral to let them wipe out their family, their city, or their dimension with an innocent mistake? (To say nothing of the other kind...) That said, you don't want to have to throw mages in an institution to raise them. Think about Elio - he was an angry lil' thing before Fate ran into him. Caro wasn't precisely happy either. You can assume that there are other people for whom the story doesn't end happily - kind of like real-life adoption, you know? The key is to get the mages the supervision and training they need, not to haul them away from their world. With Lindy there in that role, the need is filled (and rather well!) So there's no point in trying to haul off Nanoha or Hayate. Lindy's involvement wasn't convincing the brass so much as it was actually DOING it - taking years of her life to ride herd on them. If Lindy hadn't been willing to go so far, it's likely that things would have turned out differently... Things are different for Hayate, but not because they were focused on her - as far as the incident report goes, she was an innocent bystander who got involved. But the knights weren't absolved; even though they got off lightly, considering the circumstances, they really did have to do some restitution. Hayate comes out and says "this is probably the only way we'll be able to stay together" - so if that's her priority, she really does have no choice but to play ball. |
2008-04-02, 02:24 | Link #406 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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[quote]I'd like to know how you explain the Bureau letting Hayate and her Knights stay on Earth given their past records. You could get away with Nanoha since you can argue that she was cooperative and had no criminal record, but not the knights. Keroko raised the point previously, but I'm amused you never responded to it. Actually, with the exception of the criminal record, all factors in both cases are very similar. It is not difficult to imagine similar methods being used. Further, these people made a bigger commitment. They are not only helping - within months, they volunteered to be full-fledged officers. Obviously, that increases the room for concession. If anything, Lindy seems to suggest there are few limits to where an officer can live (I suppose the TSAB assumes its officers can handle their magic responsibly). As a practical matter, since the Knights are so infamous, having them live on Earth and get mobilized onto Asura only when necessary is avoids embarassment for the TSAB, at least until the Knights develop a better reputation. There is no point in letting them walk around on Mid and raising news articles like "Scandal: High Ranking TSAB Official meets with Wolkenritter on Friendly Terms." Nothing like mutual interest to get people to agree to bend a rule... Quote:
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2008-04-02, 02:42 | Link #407 | ||||
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Forgot that Secure White Room you say the Bureau could threaten to lock Nanoha in if Lindy hadn't pulled strings for her? Why let the Knights stay on Earth if they're worried about them going out of control, when they can lock them in a secure facility on one of their own worlds? It doesn't have to be Mid either. Therefore, regulations regarding NAW mages are either non-existent or bent to the point where they might as well be non-existent so far as examples in the anime and manga have shown. Erio and Caro are not from NAWs, so such regulations do not apply to them. Quote:
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2008-04-02, 04:16 | Link #408 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-04-02, 06:56 | Link #410 | |||
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The point I made was not them going out of control, but rather the media (you know them) putting the wrong things in print from accidental contact. Until the Wolkies get a more positive reputation, there's no point in blatantly advertising the fact that TSAB works with former criminals. It does no one any good. Quote:
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2008-04-02, 07:15 | Link #411 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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She pretty much fired off a Crossfire Shoot one-fingered that took out Tea without using RH, so yeah, I'd say she can still do magic. RH and her are just a helluva more effective than Nanoha on her own.
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2008-04-02, 07:40 | Link #412 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Although as Yuuno demostrates, one can be a damn good mage without a device. However, one must wonder if Nanoha would have unlocked her magic potential at all if not for Yuuno. I'd have to say no. |
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2008-04-02, 08:14 | Link #413 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Just think about self-interest. When it comes to innocent mages like Nanoha, simple self-interest involves grabbing her back, and pressuring her into service - Unhappy Conscript > None (and the Unhappy Conscript might just be turned Happy through indoctrination and good service conditions - maybe they can even let him relocate back home after he has proven himself to make him Happy). The chances of her turning genocidal and being a threat are minimal. Lindy uses a mixture of techniques to convince the highers that Nanoha's a Volunteer, so we might as well have her be a Happy Volunteer. Self interest says - let her stay on Earth - it is actually closer to HQ than Mid anyway, for some reason that will forever elude us. Not a year later, such a strategy pays off as Nanoha sells herself into officer servitude Then look at Hayate and co. Everyone can win and everyone can lose. Self interest says to take the winning path - which is to make them into volunteers. Everyone loses by throwing them into prison or by letting things blow into a full blown court case. After all, the BoD incident is rather embarassing. Top dog backstabs subordinates, deliberately allows BoD Growth. Within minutes of using Arcie ... kids come up with tactics professionals can't ... all of these are things that will come out in a court case, none of which is good for the TSAB's prestige (and prestige is half the thing in law enforcement - if the criminals think you're a joke, you've got no deterrence). Sure, there are such things as secret courts held in the dark, do you prefer them? Now, so. No prison. Voluntary "community" service instead. Now, where do they live? They are at least nominally officers now, so it won't be appropriate to hide them in that Sterile White Care Center, much less a prison. They'll live out more or less out in the open. Sure, they can set some probationary curfews and the like, but these guys are going on the street. This risks media attention, which may not be sympathetic. And if you go down the path that they are possible Dangers, then if they do blow, it'll be in the middle of Midchildra with no way to cover up the mess. The TSAB looks like an idiot for misplaced trust ... so on. Best to, especially since that's clearly what they want to do, let them live in that backwater world that no one visits, under the close direct surveillance of two crack mages (Lindy and Chrono) that for some reason had taken a liking to the place, plus an up and coming third who is very much interested in making sure the Wolkies stay peaceful (since they are living right in her hometown...) Just evaluate self-interests, and the solution is clear. Regarding RH... Nanoha was practicing her Divine Shooters w/o RH assistance in Ep 1 A's. All RH was doing was counting to 100 for her. |
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2008-04-02, 08:58 | Link #414 | |||||
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Nanoha could have been an exception, but Hayate pretty much suggests that the TSAB doesn't impress foreign mages. Really, you're the only one who insists that the TSAB requires that all foreign mages they find to work for them. Quote:
What would be an issue, in the event they recruited Hayate against her will and hauled her party to Mid, would be what mischief they can cause when not on duty. In such a case, they would likely have been locked up in a secure facility when not on duty. You like impressment so much. Tell me, when a party used it, how much freedom did they give the impressed "recruits" before they were done with them? Quote:
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The Bureau may have an unwritten policy to make every attempt to recruit promising mages they can find, given their mage shortages, who can blame them? But that's far from the impressment that is mentioned in the novel. |
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2008-04-02, 09:42 | Link #415 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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There's not really any reason for Hayate to obfuscate what went on, as far as the investigation was concerned. I mean, the truth is pretty compelling, isn't it? Little crippled girl, who is also an orphan, is dying; she encounters the Book through pure blind chance (and this is corroborated by an admiral!) Knights come to the conclusion that the Book is killing her; this is bad; the only tool they have is a hammer, so they go pound some nails. They run into Nanoha, A's ensues, happy ending.
I can see Hayate accepting responsibility - after all, they're "hers", so the damage they did is partly her fault even if it was while they were off the proverbial leash. So having her do so is actually a good move as far as public relations. She's young, cooperative, hard to get mad at, and also a sickly little girl! If she's insisting "no, no, you can't just punish them because it's my fault too" when you and every other observer know it's none of her bloody fault, the end result is going easy on the knights. The back side of it is, of course, that it's not just the TSAB with a gun to Hayate's head, saying "you will cooperate or we'll dismember your family"... Hayate has a Mexican standoff here. The TSAB wants the Book incident buried, really buried. Most especially, they want Graham's involvement to be completely off the record. But that doesn't work if they just drop the hammer on Hayate and the kids, because it's not just them involved. Even if you could lock up Hayate and the knights somewhere, you still have to deal with a (now-enraged) Lindy, who's high up enough in the command structure to kick people in all sorts of sensitive places. So the TSAB -has- to come to a compromise here. And really, it wasn't hard; the knights escape punishment except for some nice community work (probably good for the soul, especially if you've spent your entire existence as a soulless killing machine,) and Hayate gets to play with all the magic that Reinforce left her, with her good friends who also turned out to be mages. The Bureau gets its dirty secret buried, and buried effectively enough that Hayate's still catching crap over it ten years later; that's her end of the bargain. As for Nanoha not being a threat without a device... er... you know, it did turn out that the Book of Darkness was -across town- from her. Not sayin' anything bad, but assuming that she'd never run into anything powerfully magical... well, there's a really good counter-example actually provided in the show, after a fashion. |
2008-04-02, 10:50 | Link #416 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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In one case, it isn't compelling enough. If she let's slip the Knights disobeyed her direct orders, TSAB higher-ups might wonder what if she lost control of them again and they turned on the Bureau this time? Would they feel the danger of that is so great that they need to eliminate the Knights, regardless of the outcome of her case?
If Hayate thought about this, she'd figure out a way to make people think she asked the Knights do what was neccessary to save her. That implies that the Knights didn't disobey her orders, so the Bureau only needs to watch her loyalty. |
2008-04-02, 11:14 | Link #417 | ||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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This is actually consistent with the newer Rehabiliative or Restorative justice models. If a former baddie is sincerely willing to do good and make amends, to some extent compromises are possible because the goal is to get him to accept his amends as amends, not an enforced punishment. But then, it might just have been good old self interest. Presumably, Regius is the old Retributive and Deontological type. Break the Law = Bad. No mitigating circumstances. And all that. Quote:
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If you view everything through the lens of self-interest, it is entirely consistent that they will impress good mages if recruitment doesn't work, but that once the mage has agreed to help they can be maganimous in proportion to the Power and Rarity of the mage, even if the background is not totally clean. Quote:
1) Lindy is trying to "shut eye". As in, if you guys walk away, I can pretend that the White mage is a one time event and we cannot locate her. If we can't locate her obviously we can't recruit / impress / conscript her. We can't do that if you keep showing up. 2) It has nothing to do with it. Lindy just figures that they are untrained for what is to come and doesn't want them to interfere. Asura will be staying there for awhile, so Lindy can just pick Nanoha up when she's done. In fact, maybe Lindy is worried Nanoha would get killed duelling Fate and then she won't be able to get her into the TSAB... Quote:
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2008-04-02, 11:39 | Link #418 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I just want to say that while this is all fun and well to you guys, it has no bearings on Outer Cadia, where the novel is rarely referred to and the TSAB apparently runs a National Service system ala Singapore/Israel.
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2008-04-02, 12:09 | Link #419 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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It is very clear that while the TSAB has a darker side, the public face of the TSAB is al smiles and pleasure. Lindy (and thereby the entire crew of the Arthra) were allowing Nanoha to simply walk away, and the TSAB as a whole went easy on Fate in S1. The second season had the beginnings of the darkness in the TSAB with Graham, but the public face once again covered things up. Graham 'retired' and very few know of the truth behind the Yami no Sho case. In StrikerS, it is quite clear that the TSAB is doing dark things, but it is also quite aparant that these dark things are a closely guarded secret, to the point where the TSAB head honchos have little qualms on eliminating their own to keep the public face intact. The novel law, which basically says that people with magic abillities will be drafted against choice if neccisary, directly contradicts what canon has shown us. Not just S1, but A's and StrikerS as well. Combine that with the fact that this law has no support in any of the canon materials we have available, and it becomes quite clear that it is a novel-only thing. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-02 at 16:50. |
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2008-04-02, 12:38 | Link #420 | |||||||
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Furthermore, if the base was on some unpopulated planet instead of Mid, the media is unlikely to find out what goes on there. Transdimensional travel and communications are easier to block than the same on Earth. This is what Hayate and co. can look forward to if such a law really existed. "We're glad you decided to join us on your own initiative. You are assigned to this base. You will go there immediately. You will obey all regulations. Disobedience will be considered treason. Treason is punishable by death." |
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