[MANGA] what went wrong in bleach?

[RedWing]

It's not a DEM if the resolve happened BEFORE Ichigo came to SS, The flashback of his training PROVES this. It wasn't pulled out of nowhere...You are pulling arguments out of no where though..

You obviously have no idea what a Deus Ex Machina is. Please stop posting before your stupidity kills me through laughter.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Okay, maybe which should clear up what the term means for everyone...

A deus ex machina (literally "god from the machine") is a plot device in which a person or thing appears "out of the blue" to help a character to overcome a seemingly insolvable difficulty.

A plot device is an element introduced into a story solely to advance or resolve its plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author; it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story. A poorly-written story, on the other hand, may have such awkward or contrived plot devices that the reader has serious trouble maintaining suspension of disbelief.

Calling an element of a work a 'plot device' is generally derogatory, implying a lack of complexity in the work. Judging something as a plot device is always subjective, and depends on the degree to which the 'item' serves other purposes or is well-integrated into the tale. For example, the 'magic item' which the protagonists of a fantasy novel have to find or destroy is often a plot device that serves no other purpose.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by RedWing

You obviously have no idea what a Deus Ex Machina is. Please stop posting before your stupidity kills me through laughter.

Wow, here I go......

I know what a DEM is and I also know where the term always applies and that is in Marvel/DC comics.

Deus Ex Machina is Latin for "God from the Machine". It's a simple plot device.

A staple example is that a character is in an impossible situation and suddenly overcomes it in due to something that came "out of the blue", like intervention by other characters, enemies screwing up, discover some new power that turns the tide, etc.

The resolve training is not any of these do you understand the entire concept of the resolve training Ichigo was undergoing from urahara? In chapter 66, pages 17-19 Ichigo awakens his soul cutter with his resolve [STOP THE FEAR] to face Urahara and in chapter 97 page 13 Urahara just expands on the resolve [STOP THE FEAR/ Christ the title of the chapter is "talk about your fear"] training in a FLASHBACK allowing Ichigo to remember.

You people are trying to label Ichigo's resolve power-up as an "out of the blue" DEM which is false because this was developed upon in the training before Ichigo's battle with Renji which is proven upon by the FLASHBACK.

DR. Strange from Marvel is a walking DEM....

[james0246]

^While I mostly agree with you, let me just clarify two points:

Intervention by other characters: This is only a deus ex machina if the character that interfers has no business being anywhere near the battlefield. Specifically, Ishida interfering in Ichigo's fight with Ulquiorra was not deus, becuase Ishida was already on the battlefield with Ichigo. But, the various Soul Society captains suddenly appearing in Hueco Mundo is a Deus ex machina, because it was never hinted that they would come (thankfully, Kubo turned this into a plot device used to further Aizen's plans, but it was still a sloppy deus).

Enemies screwing up: This is only really a deus ex machina if the enemy acts completely different than how they acted previously. If it is already established that the enemy acts clumsy or overly arrogant (or any other predescribed negative character traits that could cause the character to be sloppy in finishing an opponent), then them screwing up in battle due to their clumsiness or arrogance , is not only understandable, it is actually acceptable.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by james0246

Enemies screwing up: This is only really a deus ex machina if the enemy acts completely different than how they acted previously. If it is already established that the enemy acts clumsy or overly arrogant (or any other predescribed negative character traits that could cause the character to be sloppy in finishing an opponent), then them screwing up in battle due to their clumsiness or arrogance , is not only understandable, it is actually acceptable.

An example of this is Ulquiorra who previously has fought logically and liked to finish battles as quickly as possible and with at least effort as possible suddenly started becoming irrational, shouting and getting stressed and used segunda etapa for no particular reason other than he felt like it, if he was pushed to use segunda etapa by Ichigo thats one thing but him just using it because he wants to show Ichigo true despair is just stupid.

[Andrius]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

used segunda etapa for no particular reason

He was pushed by KT to use it just to show us how much stronger Ichigo is in his hollow mode #2.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

An example of this is Ulquiorra who previously has fought logically and liked to finish battles as quickly as possible and with at least effort as possible suddenly started becoming irrational, shouting and getting stressed and used segunda etapa for no particular reason other than he felt like it, if he was pushed to use segunda etapa by Ichigo thats one thing but him just using it because he wants to show Ichigo true despair is just stupid.

But Ulquiorra did finally get around to dealing the final blow. The real Deus Ex Machina there was Ichigo's hollow powers kicking in when he should've died, which really had nothing to do with how logically Ulq was fighting up until that point. All you can really say is that if he had gone for the killing blow a little earlier Orihime wouldn't have made it there to trigger the transformation...but then again, if he had done it while they were still in the throne room Orihime would've been around and the result could've been the same.

Anyways, I kinda disagree with the notion that enemies acting differently and screwing up is really an example of Deus Ex Machina. You can usually expect a good portion of villains to suffer from some kind of mental breakdown, blind rage or just plain desperation that ultimately causes them to lose even if it seems like they're the most suave and calm guy in universe until that point. The idea behind that is villains deep down are supposed to be extremely flawed people. They may be very good at covering them up but eventually the flaws come through and cause them to lose.

@Phenomenal

A Deus Ex Machina isn't necessarily about being "expected" it's also about the resolutions being abrupt and overly simple. In the Greek plays from which the term is derived the gods were understood to be omnipotent and could basically do anything so no further explanation of the solution was needed. It really had nothing to with whether or not the story had set up the gods to interfere. Even though we know Ichigo has hollow powers, using them a way to save him every time he's on the brink of death makes them a Deus. We get no clear explanation of why he transformed into this new form...he just did.

Note that Deus Ex Machina isn't necessarily always a bad thing, it's a literary device just like any other writing technique, but it can be abused.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Did you forget Ichigo went to train and develop that hollow Reiatsu for control before his first fight against Ulquirra?
Did you forget the fact that as soon as the hollow inside Ichigo tried to take over against Yammy that's when Ulqui made the statement about his fluctuating Reiatsu, he was commenting on that Hollow inside of him CAUSING the reaitsu to fluctaute, who cares if Ulqui didn't mention it WE know what caused the fluctuation and that the power of the hollow is greater than Ulqui's.

He made a statement about fluctuating reiatsu. He never said anything about hollow reiatsu. He should of. "How can he have this reiatsu? It's exactly like ours!" Clearly proves he was surprised Ichigo had hollow reiatsu.You can't argue with that or deny it no matter how hard you try. Should he have been, though? By your theory, no. It is very clear then that Ulquiorra didn't detect hollow reiatsu when Ichigo fought Yammy. It is clear then that there is place where Hollow Ichigo's reiatsu is undetectable. I did not forget that Ichigo went to train and develop that Hollow Reiatsu for control before his first fight against Ulquiorra. But I don't see what that has to do anything. You can't say that the power of Hollow ichigo's reiatsu is greater than Ulquiorra's based on that alone.

He was not commenting on hollow reiatsu. This is just your opinion. My theory is still far more consistent than yours.

But you know what? For some strange reason I'm getting the feeling that you've completely forgotten the point I was trying to make. For some strange reason I'm getting the feeling you think my point was that Hollow Ichigo did not cause Ichigo's reiatsu to fluctuate. My initial point that was Ichigo's reiatsu was not actually fluctuating but was being forced to an undetectable place. So far you haven't really made any point against that. I know what Ulquiorra said. I made the point of how Ulquiorra could've been mistaken. Ichigo going under training to control his hollow doesn't prove that my theory incorrect.

Sigh Ulquirra's statement proves that Hollow Ichigo > Ichigo...Period. My above statement proves so...You can ignore facts all you want but they are not going away.

Ulquiorra's statement about Ichigo's fluctuating reiatsu does not prove that Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ichigo. I don't know where that came from. At best it proves that Ichigo + Hollow Ichigo reiatsu is stronger than Ulquiorra's. But based on that alone you can't say Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra. It looks as if you've once again resorted to the childish "I'm right, and you're wrong" approach. If you aren't going to to actually argue then don't bother. Don't insult me.

It's not a DEM if the resolve happened BEFORE Ichigo came to SS, The flashback of his training PROVES this. It wasn't pulled out of nowhere...You are pulling arguments out of no where though..

You don't know what a DEM is. It was still pulled out of nowhere. Like I said, the fact that it did happened before in the plot means nothing. I explained perfectly why but you seem intent on ignoring this. Looks like I'll have to repeat myself again to you. It was revealed that this resolve was from Ichigo's training. That also came out of the blue. You can't argue it was expected when his training was revealed along side the concept at the same time. That flashback occured DURING the fight. It still came out of the blue FOR US READERS!

Get it now? You're the one clutching at straws here. You don't know what a DEM is. You may know the definition but you don't understand it's application. I must also point out that what you just said here is not an argument. You've basically just told me what you said before and decided not to actually address the point I was making. You've done that for all three points.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Andrius

He was pushed by KT to use it just to show us how much stronger Ichigo is in his hollow mode #2.

Are you saying that his transformation was a blatant plot device to show the new power level of Ichigo?

[Kafriel]

^Well, it was...the gap was huge even at first release, 2nd release getting owned just brings Ichigo closer to #3, but he's still a long way from beating any living villains at this point in time...meaning....MOAR power-ups? yuck.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Haak

Ulquiorra's statement about Ichigo's fluctuating reiatsu does not prove that Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ichigo. I don't know where that came from. At best it proves that Ichigo + Hollow Ichigo reiatsu is stronger than Ulquiorra's. But based on that alone you can't say Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra. It looks as if you've once again resorted to the childish "I'm right, and you're wrong" approach. If you aren't going to to actually argue then don't bother. Don't insult me.

Sorry but I believe Phenomenal is right, Ulquiorra's statement about Ichigo's fluctuating reiatsu does prove that Hichigo is stronger than Ichigo because think about it like this, Hichigo was fighting for control at this point so it was going from:

Ichigo - What Ulquiorra said was trash and nothing to be worried about
Hichigo - What Ulquiorra said was very powerful

Ulquiorra was stronger than Ichigo but saw a part of Ichigo's power stronger than him which is Hichigo is Hichigo is not stronger than Ichigo there would be no reason for Hichigo to have to save Ichigo or a reason why Hichigo beats opponents Ichigo has trouble with.

Hichigo and Zangetsu are like the owners of two big companies and when they decide to work together to form a new company they need to hire a new person to control the formed company while they are controlling their own respective companies, Ichigo is that person that controls the combination of the companies but still has to report back to the other two when he needs more money or resources etc....

Hichigo has control of all of Hollow Inc whilst Ichigo only has partial control of Hollow Inc. as well as Shinigami Inc. however he is supposed to be the heir of both one day.

If you think of it like that Hichigo has more power than Ichigo but one day that power will be Ichigo's.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Sorry but I believe Phenomenal is right, Ulquiorra's statement about Ichigo's fluctuating reiatsu does prove that Hichigo is stronger than Ichigo because think about it like this, Hichigo was fighting for control at this point so it was going from:

Ichigo - What Ulquiorra said was trash and nothing to be worried about
Hichigo - What Ulquiorra said was very powerful

Ulquiorra was stronger than Ichigo but saw a part of Ichigo's power stronger than him which is Hichigo is Hichigo is not stronger than Ichigo there would be no reason for Hichigo to have to save Ichigo or a reason why Hichigo beats opponents Ichigo has trouble with.

Hichigo and Zangetsu are like the owners of two big companies and when they decide to work together to form a new company they need to hire a new person to control the formed company while they are controlling their own respective companies, Ichigo is that person that controls the combination of the companies but still has to report back to the other two when he needs more money or resources etc....

Hichigo has control of all of Hollow Inc whilst Ichigo only has partial control of Hollow Inc. as well as Shinigami Inc. however he is supposed to be the heir of both one day.

If you think of it like that Hichigo has more power than Ichigo but one day that power will be Ichigo's.

Yeah but it doesn't prove that so (as Phenomenal would have us believe) does it? There's no way of knowing. Like I said, it doesn't explain why Ulquiorra was surprised Ichigo had Hollow Reiatsu when they first fought.

Hichigo doesn't have to be stronger to save Ichigo. He saves Ichigo because he has no other choice. Like I said, in his fight with Byakuya, Ichigo only had trouble because he wasn't using bankai properly. There was no reason to suggest Hichigo was stronger, at least not now that Ichigo has a stronger mind. Hichigo only beat opponents Ichigo had trouble with because he had a stronger mind. Hichigo probably is stronger,

However, this is all besides the point I was making. Remember, I said I don't mind Hichigo being stronger but just not so God damn strong that it seemingly solves everything so quickly. That's what I was arguing against.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah but it doesn't prove that so (as Phenomenal would have us believe) does it? There's no way of knowing. Like I said, it doesn't explain why Ulquiorra was surprised Ichigo had Hollow Reiatsu when they first fought.

However, this is all besides the point I was making. Remember, I said I don't mind Hichigo being stronger but just not so God damn strong that it seemingly solves everything so quickly. That's what I was arguing against.

I think the reason Ulquiorra was surprised is because back then he didn't know what was causing the flux but he could just feel it but then in their first fight he could blatantly feel the hollow reiatsu pouring out as he fought. Due to my like of metaphors it's like you may not notice what is burning but you know something is burning but when you actually look you see something burning.

Thats why I have hopes that the more Ichigo relies on Hichigo the more Hichigo starts to slowly merge with his personality before long Hichigo is the dominant nature, first it starts with Ichigo having more bursts of anger, then him being more cocky when fighting and enjoying it more, then becoming more like Kenpachi until before long he becomes more hollow.

[J..]

I know Ichigo is the main character and all but they make him too strong sometimes. He hasn't been a soul reaper very long compared to the others and he's kicking all my favorite characters' asses.

Ichigo vs. Ikkaku (I wasn't upset at first until it turned Ikkaku had a bankai. Ichigo should have been destroyed.)

Ichigo vs. Kenpachi (Ichigo almost pissed himself when he felt Kenpachi's spirit pressure.)

Winner Ichigo. (NOOOOOO!!!)

Yoruichi: I'm going to help you get your bankai in a few days even tho the other captains had to work long and hard to get theirs. (WHAT NO WAY!)

Ichigo vs. Byakuya (Decent fight. Ichigo isn't doing too good. Hollow Ichigo appears.....(Another power boost! He just got bankai!)

I could go on but I don't feel like it. What I'm saying is that he's getting too strong too fast. I'm done.....

EH!! How do you go from a few seconds to like a ten chapter fight in Hollow Mode. Damn Hollow Ichigo....

[kitten320]

What went wrong... I saw new spoilers and hope that it sin't Stark's release... otherwise we will have second Elvis...

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

^While I mostly agree with you, let me just clarify two points:

Intervention by other characters: This is only a deus ex machina if the character that interfers has no business being anywhere near the battlefield. But, the various Soul Society captains suddenly appearing in Hueco Mundo is a Deus ex machina, because it was never hinted that they would come (thankfully, Kubo turned this into a plot device used to further Aizen's plans, but it was still a sloppy deus).

It's not a DEM, we knew SS was going to war we didn't just know how...It was explained why SS arrived in HM by Kenpachi that's called a plot twist.

Originally Posted by Cub Sama

An example of this is Ulquiorra who previously has fought logically and liked to finish battles as quickly as possible and with at least effort as possible suddenly started becoming irrational, shouting and getting stressed and used segunda etapa for no particular reason other than he felt like it, if he was pushed to use segunda etapa by Ichigo thats one thing but him just using it because he wants to show Ichigo true despair is just stupid.

No, Ulquiira's character was always changing, interested in humans desire to never give up particularly...In The heart.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Even though we know Ichigo has hollow powers, using them a way to save him every time he's on the brink of death makes them a Deus. We get no clear explanation of why he transformed into this new form...he just did.

Ichigo is not "Hichigo" to completely different people..."Hichigo" taking over in a battle so he won't die [which has been stated] is not a DEM. It's part of his power set....

Originally Posted by Haak

He made a statement about fluctuating reiatsu. He never said anything about hollow reiatsu. He should of. "How can he have this reiatsu? It's exactly like ours!" Clearly proves he was surprised Ichigo had hollow reiatsu.You can't argue with that or deny it no matter how hard you try. Should he have been, though? By your theory, no. It is very clear then that Ulquiorra didn't detect hollow reiatsu when Ichigo fought Yammy. It is clear then that there is place where Hollow Ichigo's reiatsu is undetectable. I did not forget that Ichigo went to train and develop that Hollow Reiatsu for control before his first fight against Ulquiorra. But I don't see what that has to do anything. You can't say that the power of Hollow ichigo's reiatsu is greater than Ulquiorra's based on that alone.

He was not commenting on hollow reiatsu. This is just your opinion. My theory is still far more consistent than yours.

But you know what? For some strange reason I'm getting the feeling that you've completely forgotten the point I was trying to make. For some strange reason I'm getting the feeling you think my point was that Hollow Ichigo did not cause Ichigo's reiatsu to fluctuate. My initial point that was Ichigo's reiatsu was not actually fluctuating but was being forced to an undetectable place. So far you haven't really made any point against that. I know what Ulquiorra said. I made the point of how Ulquiorra could've been mistaken. Ichigo going under training to control his hollow doesn't prove that my theory incorrect.

Ulquiorra's statement about Ichigo's fluctuating reiatsu does not prove that Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ichigo. I don't know where that came from. At best it proves that Ichigo + Hollow Ichigo reiatsu is stronger than Ulquiorra's. But based on that alone you can't say Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra. It looks as if you've once again resorted to the childish "I'm right, and you're wrong" approach. If you aren't going to to actually argue then don't bother. Don't insult me.

Your insulting yourself by ignoring straight up canon facts. Ulqui doesn't need to state it was Hollow Reitsu because WE the fans know when Ulqui makes the comment about his fluctauating Reaitsu IS WHEN the hollow is trying to takeover..IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE STATED WHEN THE OBVIOUS IS SHOWN RIGHT IN YOUR VERY FACE!!

You don't know what a DEM is. It was still pulled out of nowhere. Like I said, the fact that it did happened before in the plot means nothing. I explained perfectly why but you seem intent on ignoring this. Looks like I'll have to repeat myself again to you. It was revealed that this resolve was from Ichigo's training. That also came out of the blue. You can't argue it was expected when his training was revealed along side the concept at the same time. That flashback occured DURING the fight. It still came out of the blue FOR US READERS!

Get it now? You're the one clutching at straws here. You don't know what a DEM is. You may know the definition but you don't understand it's application. I must also point out that what you just said here is not an argument. You've basically just told me what you said before and decided not to actually address the point I was making. You've done that for all three points.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=263

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

No, Ulquiira's character was always changing, interested in humans desire to never give up particularly...In The heart.

But it was out of character for Ulquiorra who is usually quiet and tries to break down the enemies spirit started to act irrational sending out everything to try and make Ichigo feel true despair just because he felt like he was wrong. He became too desperate to prove that it was useless to continue fighting for something that is useless and failed to see the reasoning in it and became desperate to prove it, logical people once seeing there is no point in trying to convince them just quietly end it and walk away.

[Phenomenal]

Until Orihime got Ulqui interested in humans his whole demenaor was changing that was very evident.....^^^

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

It's not a DEM, we knew SS was going to war we didn't just know how...It was explained why SS arrived in HM by Kenpachi that's called a plot twist.

Actually, we knew SS was going to war with Aizen in the real world (specifically in Karakura). Old Man Yamamoto specifically forbid anyone from going after Orihime, thinking that Orihime willingly betrayed them. So, until Kenpachi and the others showed up, there was absolutely no indication that they were supposed to be there, or that they would appear, so it was a deus ex machina for them to appear not a plot twist.

A plot twist would be the creation of a Fake Karakura - we knew the battle would occur in the real world, and specifically in Karakura, but Kubo hinted well in advance that the SS had plans in motion to stop Aizen, so the Fake Karakura was a decent twist on what we had thought we knew concerning the info at hand. The sudden appearance of the SS forces in Hueco Mundo, though, was specifically forbidden by Yamamoto, so when Kenpachi announced that it was ordered by Yamamoto, who had previously ordered all involvement with Orihime to be traitorous, it was not a twist at all, but rather a complete and total reversal based on nothing but plot contrivance.

To put it another way, Kenpachi had to literally explain to the audience (by lampshading the event) why he and the others had appeared, because there was no basis for their appearance within any of the info we had at the time.

Added to that, Kenpachi and the other arrived just in time to save everyone. So, this situation fits the very definition of deus ex machina (in fact, it perfectly fits the defintion of DEM that you originally explained).

[Phenomenal]

Did you forget what Kenpachi said when he arrived to save Ichigo about Yammamoto's orders?