Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[itanshi1]

Yeah they beat her final form by reading the strategy guide, a bit too calculated

[Kaijo]

I'm of the opinion it looks worse than it is. Analyzing the actual details reveals some interesting tidbits that make it seem like the Huck's aren't as unstoppable as they would appear. Sure, they can actively de-link magic, but there is more than one way to fight them and get past their strengths. We just haven't really seen it happen too much. The AEC weapons were working, and the iceberg, being a physical object, would have smashed the ship.

And really, can we really complain? I mean, here we actually have enemies that pose a significant threat. There's a much stronger feeling of danger here, proven by the fact we're actively asking if the heroes can win (and for awhile, actively wondering if Signum would die).

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

But certainly magic has played a pivotal role in the series since the beginning, the trend is that they're powerful magical warriors, it feels a bit strange this sudden subversion of concepts, another set of protagonist would serve better, as the old Nanoha cast looks very unsuitable for a story like this, they're magical warriors, they don't belong here, put someone equally rough to fight that bunch of rockstars called The Huckebein like Spike Siegel or Vash The Stampede, Nanoha and Co. are better fighting in a Slayers Universe or in planet Cephiro xD.

And then people would be whining about not having the original cast.

Just because magic is the main method of doing things doesn't mean something can't easily come around and counter it. Would be incredibly stupid to believe that magic works for every situation all the time. Their heavy reliance on magic is what's biting them in the ass in this situation.

Originally Posted by Laith

I am pretty sure that Nanoha is trying to KO Touma because his anti-magic abilities, regeneration and everything else won´t work while he is unconscious.

She hopes so, anyways. We already know for a fact that Thoma will stay reacted even when unconscious.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

This situation really isn't comparable to previous curbstomps. In past situations the worst damage that's been inflicted on a hero was Subaru or Nanoha being beaten up pretty badly. In just this opening fight Signum's been placed in critical condition, Hayate's been skewered, Nanoha's almost been killed, Vita and Erio both got their asses handed to them, everyone on the Wolfram had a heart attack via Touma, Isis got her fucking neck broken... am I forgetting anyone? Is my point made? And then the one time it looks like the heroes have the edge over the Hucks, Karen the Walking Desu Ex Machina comes in and nullifies it immediately. There's a difference between being competent and being completely fucking unstoppable.

So you'd rather see the good guys come out on top when they're facing foes with abilities they've never encountered before, are ill prepared for, using equipment they aren't used to, that pretty much goes against the way they've fought for over 15 years...

Yeah, I'd say it'd be more bullshit mary sueness on the hero's part if they didn't get their asses kicked with all that stacked against them.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Their heavy reliance on magic is what's biting them in the ass in this situation.

That was commented on in the StrikerS manga about AMFs and how all fighting styles used magic and the AMF was screwing them up.

Edit: I just remembered something. The whole problem with anti-magic abilities was already in StrikerS.

Not the AMF.

The Saint Cradle itself.

Remember at the end?

"Now canceling all magic links."

EVERYONE in the cradle was powerless. It forcibly canceled Hayate's Unison with Rein, and Subaru commented that she couldn't do any magic, but her Combat Cyborg mode was perfectly fine.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

So you'd rather see the good guys come out on top when they're facing foes with abilities they've never encountered before, are ill prepared for, using equipment they aren't used to, that pretty much goes against the way they've fought for over 15 years...

I'd rather they make the equivalent of a fighting retreat.

When Team Nanoha first fought the Wolkenritter the heroes managed to hold their own even in the first engagement. Nanoha was a match for Vita up until she made the critical tactical error of underestimating the cartridge system and the amount of force that Vita could bring to bear against her shields. Yuuno, Fate and Arf were able to bring Vita down by ganging up on her, and then were able to fight defensively against Signum and company until Nanoha could bring down Vita's barrier. The end result of that fight was Nanoha knocked unconscious and needing bedrest to regain her mana as well as some light injuries scattered among the other characters and some repairs needing to be done to RH and Bardiche. This in spite of the fact that Team Nanoha was fighting enemies with abilities they'd never encountered before, superior equipment and vastly greater combat experience, and using an intensely melee-oriented fighting style none of them had ever encountered.

Now, 15 years later and with 15 years of experience under their belts, they're faced with a similar situation and they're getting their asses kicked all over the battlefield. StrikerS 17 didn't even turn out this badly, the worst that happened then besides the kidnappings was Subaru losing a chunk of her arm and Mach Caliber shutting down.

[Justin_Brett]

Now, see, I'm one of the few people who actually liked the villains in StrikerS. Just because the heroes won't necessarily lose to them in a straight-up fight does NOT mean they aren't a threat. It was partially pointing out how the bigger picture doesn't necessarily concern the main characters. You can win a battle but lose the war, as they say.

But apparently people didn't like strategy, so here come these guys with superpowers, who only Section Six is deemed competent enough to defeat. Next time they fight, it'll probably just me the same people, with no actual reinforcements from the rest of the Bureau. From a story perspective, they're only here to be threats.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

I'd rather they make the equivalent of a fighting retreat.

Let me point out that if the mains did that before being totally defeated then it would REALLY derail their characters and people would hate Force because it became like a REALLY, REALLY bad fanfic.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Now, 15 years later and with 15 years of experience under their belts, they're faced with a similar situation and they're getting their asses kicked all over the battlefield. StrikerS 17 didn't even turn out this badly, the worst that happened then besides the kidnappings was Subaru losing a chunk of her arm and Mach Caliber shutting down.

They TRAINED to deal with AMFs. It didn't help them deal with the combat cyborgs.

If the Numbers had been going for the kill, Zafira (who ended up in the hospital, badly injured) and Shamal would be dead, as would Erio.

And Fate barely held of Tre and Sette, no AMF, at that time.

Oh, and don't forget, people...

My favorite character is Sette.

So, I'd like to say that I like the Numbers and Jail as well (except for Quattro, I'm having trouble with her.)

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

When Team Nanoha first fought the Wolkenritter the heroes managed to hold their own even in the first engagement. Nanoha was a match for Vita up until she made the critical tactical error of underestimating the cartridge system and the amount of force that Vita could bring to bear against her shields.

She came upon a new enemy who had a new trick that left her with little chance. Even Fate really stood no chance against Signum.

Just like what's happening here.

StrikerS 17 didn't even turn out this badly, the worst that happened then besides the kidnappings was Subaru losing a chunk of her arm and Mach Caliber shutting down.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that anime can generally be more censored than manga. With the manga, they seem freer to show things (like nipples and more gruesome injuries). It was heavily implied in StrikerS that there was plenty of death (Jail tried to keep casualties low, with the implication there was going to be some). It just wasn't shown to your face.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Now, see, I'm one of the few people who actually liked the villains in StrikerS. Just because the heroes won't necessarily lose to them in a straight-up fight does NOT mean they aren't a threat. It was partially pointing out how the bigger picture doesn't necessarily concern the main characters. You can win a battle but lose the war, as they say.

But apparently people didn't like strategy, so here come these guys with superpowers, who only Section Six is deemed competent enough to defeat. Next time they fight, it'll probably just me the same people, with no actual reinforcements from the rest of the Bureau. From a story perspective, they're only here to be threats.

Through statistical chance alone, you are going to run up against enemies who scheme more than you, or are just plain more powerful than you. Or have some other gimmick that makes them a threat. We just happen to run into the Hucks.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. Hey, I like strategy, too, and we could still see this as someone manipulating RF6 and the Hucks for their own gain behind the scenes.

[Justin_Brett]

If I was complaining about having a strong villain, then I'd be an idiot. But these guys have the most transparent, blatant way of going about than I've ever seen. It's the equivalent of everyone having Kryptonite in Superman comics, a fact that's mocked routinely due to a lack of imagination.

That's what's going on here: no imagination.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Let me point out that if the mains did that before being totally defeated then it would REALLY derail their characters and people would hate Force because it became like a REALLY, REALLY bad fanfic.

You mean it isn't already?

I don't mean them actually retreating, I mean like in A's ep 1-2 against the Wolks, they lose but they make a good enough showing for themselves to prove that they aren't completely helpless against the new villains, even if they are at a significant disadvantage. So far it's been all about the Hucks roflstomping the heroes and getting no major setbacks of their own.

She came upon a new enemy who had a new trick that left her with little chance. Even Fate really stood no chance against Signum.

She lost at the first move because she tried to block when she should have dodged. And Fate stood enough of a chance against Signum to keep her busy until Nanoha brought the field down. Doesn't mean she could have won, but she walked away from the experience with no serious injuries.

If Nanoha hadn't been taken down at the first hit, she could have taken evasive action until Vita just ran out of cartridges, and if she'd held on for just another minute or two, Fate/Yuuno/Arf would have shown up to help. Even if they didn't take Vita down before Signum and Zafira showed up, Nanoha would still have been able to help fight them off and the fight would have been a lot more equal than it was.

[Nanya01]

The heroes never give up and never surrender.

If they retreated now...

MASSIVE character derailment, thus, bad fanfic.

Signum: (To Laevantein in A's) Have you ever known me to run away?
Laevantein: NEIN!
Signum: That's right.

Right now, it's the first fight.

Know your tropes better.

In fact, ON that page itself...

Frequently subverted in bad fanfics, where the villain isn't even allowed to get a shot in before being beaten to a bloody pulp. Often leads to a stagnant plot, or an endless succession of such encounters. There's a reason that this trope is the standard.(Tropes are not bad)

[Comartemis]

Again with the not reading of the posts, Nanya. I said they don't run away, they lose but they make the villains work for it.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Again with the not reading of the posts, Nanya. I said they don't run away, they lose but they make the villains work for it.

Oh, I'm not?

Then tell me, what was this you said?

I'd rather they make the equivalent of a fighting retreat.

[Comartemis]

Context Nanya, context. I followed that up with a paragraph regarding the last time they fought people who were just plain stronger than they were, namely the Wolks. The last time that happened they lost but they managed to drive off the Wolks and keep them from harvesting any linker cores besides Nanoha's. "Fighting retreat" probably isn't the right turn of phrase for that, but the idea I was going for was "they lose but they manage to score a couple of hits and the villains don't completely dominate them". It would be unreasonable to expect them to win the first fight against new enemies with untested equipment and so forth but these girls are the best of the best for good reason; they should at least be able to hold their own and fight defensively instead of just getting curbstomped like they are.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Context Nanya, context. I followed that up with a paragraph regarding the last time they fought people who were just plain stronger than they were, namely the Wolks. The last time that happened they lost but they managed to drive off the Wolks and keep them from harvesting any linker cores besides Nanoha's. "Fighting retreat" probably isn't the right turn of phrase for that, but the idea I was going for was "they lose but they manage to score a couple of hits and the villains don't completely dominate them".

I never made this complaint about StrikerS, though I did understand why it was there...

But one of the problems with the Numbers is that they weren't shown to be dangerous compared to the heroes as they retreated before the heroes could do anything against them.

Really, like I said before, and others said it before me, that it was either anti-magic or go DBZ route and make new villains more and more powerful each season.

S1, Fate was AAA.

A's, Vita was AAA+ and Signum was S- with Reinforce being at least SS in power, more likely SSS in power.

Where do you go from there?

You either go UP and make enemies more powerful than Reinforce was...

Or you go with enemies using stuff that works against magic.

StrikerS = Oh gods! The villains aren't interesting and aren't powerful, this is LAME! You fail, Tsuki!
Force = Oh gods! The bad guys are too powerful! Go back to the villains like the Numbers! You fail, Tsuki!

[Kaijo]

It should be noted the only reason they managed to drive off the Wolks, was because Nanoha nearly killed herself firing an SLB that destroyed the barrier. The Wolks only retreated then, because they were afraid the Bureau was onto them and could come in force. Up until this point, they were trying to keep a low profile.

So it's not like our heroes forced the Wolks away through battle power. If they hadn't of destroyed the barrier, they could have easily lost. Arf and Fate were getting smacked around, and all Yuuno could do was fend off Vita.

Look, no one is saying the Hucks are really good villains; just that the law of averages says we were going to encounter something like them eventually. Anti-magic had been established in StrikerS, so there was bound to be some villains that used it strongly enough to where our Heroes would struggle.

And personally, I don't believe our heroes are doing too badly here. They are fighting a battle that has swung back and forth several times. They were doing rather well vs. the Hucks until Touma did his emo shout. And then Karen, who had to have been around somewhere, showed up with a last moment save. Somewhat cliche, but it can happen to both good and bad guys.

And please note that we're only, what, 12 chapters in? If this is a 50 chapter story, then we're only a tiny ways into it. Hell, this battle ain't even over yet. Let's at least wait to see how the battle turns out before criticizing it?

[Comartemis]

Where do you go from there?

I already addressed this: YOU GO TO OTHER CHARACTERS. It's called an expanded universe, and there's more heroes then our three Aces living in it!

And please note that we're only, what, 12 chapters in? If this is a 50 chapter story, then we're only a tiny ways into it. Hell, this battle ain't even over yet. Let's at least wait to see how the battle turns out before criticizing it?

I guess I'll see you sometime next year then.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

I already addressed this: YOU GO TO OTHER CHARACTERS. It's called an expanded universe, and there's more heroes then our three Aces living in it!

And I don't disagree with this. I would have loved to see a manga series set between A's and StrikerS that featured the Wolkenritter, a manga series that detailed out Nanoha's near death experience and how the others around her reacted. *Grumbles about how the NanoFate shippers would likely ruin that too.* Maybe a series about Fate's children adventures where she goes and randomly saves kids from their situations in life.

And instead of that movie *grumble grumble*, I, personally, would have LOVED a SSX OVA.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

I already addressed this: YOU GO TO OTHER CHARACTERS. It's called an expanded universe, and there's more heroes then our three Aces living in it!

Yeah, but more people hate stuff like that. Look how many people were whining about too much Thoma and no Nanoha in the first few Force chapters.

As mentioned by others, the Wolkenritter and Jail purposely went out of their way to avoid any casualties. The Huckebein have no such limitation. Also, in the case of the Wolkenritter, while they might have had powers Nanoha and co weren't familiar with, it was still powers related to their own that still worked on the same basic principles. Not too hard to grasp that.

With the Eclipse, it's something that is fundamentally opposite of the magic system they're use to. It's a different kettle of fish from AMFs as well.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Yeah, but more people hate stuff like that. Look how many people were whining about too much Thoma and no Nanoha in the first few Force chapters.

Because a good chunk of the fanbase are complete retards. The complaints about Touma were as much about him being a guy ("Waaaaaah! We want our lesbians baaaaaaaack!") as anything else. Their opinions should not be given any weight whatsoever.