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Old 2019-03-16, 21:44   Link #21
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newhope View Post
The increasingly authoritarian left with it's identity politics is fueling the raise of the far right and it's not going to end well.
No, that isn't what fueled it, although that sure is a nice far-right-adjacent talking point. The far-right is fueled by racism, bigotry, prejudice, and instilling a sense of fear -- fear of others, fear of losing one's place/identity, fear of the unknown. And it's also being fueled by craven opportunistic assholes who don't mind stoking these fears at every opportunity because it'll benefit their self-interest (whether it's fame, power, profit, or whatever else). None of this depends at all on "the increasingly authoritarian left" or "identity politics" at all, although for some this could be the "gateway drug." There will always be something to stoke these fears in people, and the Internet/social media only amplifies it.

Bringing that point up in this thread -- in the face of an unconscionable terrorist act caused by a white nationalist clearly espousing far-right ideals -- is entirely disingenuous. Identity politics didn't lead to this psychopath killing 50 people. This isn't the time to equivocate or "both sides" the issue. This is the time to condemn, utterly and without reservation, both the person and the ideology that caused them to commit this atrocious act.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2019-03-16 at 22:02.
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Old 2019-03-17, 02:02   Link #22
Toukairin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This is the time to condemn, utterly and without reservation, both the person and the ideology that caused them to commit this atrocious act.
I think it is time to use the entire antiterrorism playbook against that ideology. And by "entire playbook", I mean surveillance methods and the use of the whole arsenal available to fight against that scum. People like that are terrorists, and the only way to deal with terrorism is by tracking them down like the dogs they are.

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-03-17 at 09:40.
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Old 2019-03-17, 02:38   Link #23
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
I think it is time to use the entire antiterrorism playbook against that ideology. And by "entire playbook", I mean surveillance methods and the use of the whole arsenal vailable to fight against that scum. People like that are terrorists, and the only way to deal with terrorism is by tracking them down like the dogs they are.
I wish than it was that easy, but it only go against the symptome of the problem. To go against the source of that ideology would require more work but at least it would be more effective.
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Old 2019-03-17, 02:58   Link #24
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We are talking about people who feels enabled in their own echo chambers, /pol/ and /b/ at 4chan and 8chan in that case. Have you been to those places when Trump and Brexit won? Because those guys were so drunk on their victory that they started campaining for Le Pen when they realized France could be next to succumb to that wave fueled by xenophobic populism.

They thought that spamming pics of Pepe manning gas chambers or Le Pepen or fanning the flames of the fear of "islamization" would be enough to sway the French into voting Le Pen. All while forgetting that Le Pen's program about economics and foreign politics, among things, were outright terrible as in no French with a working brain cell would vote for that shit.

Shooter was in France in 2017, right when the French presidency run was going on iirc. He was absolutely livid at all the foreigners or french of foreign origin in a mall. The gap between the France of postal cards and reality, and Le Pen's defeat was the breaking point to him. And pushed him to put his project in motion.

Whatever humanity he had, he lost it when he hung in places that basically told him that its okay to behave like the worst scum on Earth. He is a textbook example of seemingly ordinary man who turned into a absolute shitbag because of the wrong crowd and wrong place that enabled him to do so. And only needed a final push to jump all the way, beyond the point of no return.
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Old 2019-03-17, 05:31   Link #25
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Whatever humanity he had, he lost it when he hung in places that basically told him that its okay to behave like the worst scum on Earth. He is a textbook example of seemingly ordinary man who turned into a absolute shitbag because of the wrong crowd and wrong place that enabled him to do so. And only needed a final push to jump all the way, beyond the point of no return.
The questions should be why anyone be draw to those place, what circonstance make a individual receptive to those ''ideology''. NObody with a working brain would argue against going radical terrorism but going against the deep root of those ideology would be more effective on the long term.
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Old 2019-03-17, 06:15   Link #26
monir
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Originally Posted by Golden Lily View Post
Then how does giving him recognition will help at all? Have you seen his alleged manifesto? He literally wanted to cause culture break in US.
I think he has been thoroughly recognized, wouldn't you agree? Every part of the globe knows 49 muslim killed by a white supremacist/right winger/nazi. And I am sure most people didn't need to read the manifesto or needed to know about his intention to digest the violence he inflicted. His motif behind the atrocity doesn't matter. He is already recognized by however the media chose to label him as; a nazi, a white supremacist, a right winger degenerate. All those words already been defined many a times and most people don't need to read his manifesto to recognize for what he is about.

What I am submitting that staying silent or covering your ears does not make sense because you (in general, not you per se) don't want to recognize him. This act was pure evil. All mass shootings are. This particular act also culminates from the pits of opinions that has been steadily rising since the end of the second world war. Staying silent or refusing to talk about it won't make this bubbling problem go away.

We have to find a away to curtail such opinion that fester in its own echo chamber which eventually, leads to a deranged individual to take arms and harm innocent people. These sort of voices are not isolated in any one nation any more thanks to internet. Ideas, good or bad, now can be global transcending the boundaries of borders and nations. Staying silent or refusing to talk about such opinion isn't making said-opinions go away.

Quote:
I know that it's very hard to remain calm in front of such a violence, but by arguing we're literally dancing on his palm.
While I agree cooler head prevails, I just hope by staying calm doesn't translate into inaction toward this growing problem. We have to start taking action toward how to marginalize these troubling opinion so many around the globe seems to share. After all, these are the type of ideas, if you let it fester and grow, can bring down a society. Our history will attest to that time and time again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newhope View Post
The increasingly authoritarian left with it's identity politics is fueling the raise of the far right and it's not going to end well.
Was that a nod toward him that I detect? I knew you could not resist.

Regardless of how you choose to label the left, they will be truly terrifying to the far right if more politician like AOC start becoming popular. We all know even someone like AOC now stand a chance of winning presidency thanks to Trump's own success.
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Old 2019-03-17, 09:55   Link #27
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
I think it is time to use the entire antiterrorism playbook against that ideology. And by "entire playbook", I mean surveillance methods and the use of the whole arsenal available to fight against that scum. People like that are terrorists, and the only way to deal with terrorism is by tracking them down like the dogs they are.
They used to use surveillance on them, just like any potential terrorist threat. Then Trump ended it.
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Old 2019-03-17, 15:41   Link #28
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
They used to use surveillance on them, just like any potential terrorist threat. Then Trump ended it.
To be fair, the budjet for fighting right-wing terrorism had been slashed after the démocrates lost both chambers.The current situation is more of a republican problem than simply a Trumpian one.
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Old 2019-03-17, 15:55   Link #29
Toukairin
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
To be fair, the budjet for fighting right-wing terrorism had been slashed after the démocrates lost both chambers.The current situation is more of a republican problem than simply a Trumpian one.
That's disgraceful. I hope the next administration will give a near-blank check to units fighting against right-wing terrorism.
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Old 2019-03-17, 16:06   Link #30
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The trouble with solutions like that is that it tends to border on human rights violations, invasion of privacy, and sometimes shadows of totalitarianism (depending on who's doing it, and who stand to gain power from it).


Mind you, this particular incident is up to New Zealand's people and government to deal with.


As for the other political back and forths...the traditional response to this would be something similar to this:
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2019-03-17 at 16:15. Reason: Kyonko for life
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Old 2019-03-17, 16:25   Link #31
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The trouble with solutions like that is that it tends to border on human rights violations, invasion of privacy, and sometimes shadows of totalitarianism (depending on who's doing it, and who stand to gain power from it).
Another reason to try to fight the root causes more, to work against what made them terrorist insted of caring only when it's to late.
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Old 2019-03-17, 23:59   Link #32
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...le-publication

An 18-year old has been charged for sharing a live stream of the shooting on the day that it occurred. More telling, though, is what *else* he is being charged with:
Quote:
The other charge alleges an offence between March 8 and March 15, under the same Act, by making an objectionable publication showing a photograph of the mosque in Deans Avenue with the message "Target Acquired" and further chat messaging around inciting extreme violence.
The dates listed are of note to me because they suggest that the kid knew ahead of time where and when the attack was going to take place. In my opinion, this may blow a hole wide open in the idea that the shooting was planned out by a "lone wolf".
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Old 2019-03-18, 12:17   Link #33
MrTerrorist
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I'm disgusted with some people (particularly copsircay theorists and right wing/alt-right people) for saying the Christchurch Mosque attack was planned by the left for a weird government plot or blaming the victims saying they "deserved it" for coming to New Zealand.
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Old 2019-03-18, 12:44   Link #34
Sheba
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
I'm disgusted with some people (particularly copsircay theorists and right wing/alt-right people) for saying the Christchurch Mosque attack was planned by the left for a weird government plot or blaming the victims saying they "deserved it" for coming to New Zealand.
yeah, I have seen those stating that this is literally a conspiracy to take weapons from Americans. Jesus Christ.
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Old 2019-03-18, 16:19   Link #35
monir
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/18/europ...ntl/index.html

I was afraid of this. Psychos breed more psychos.

They aren't indicating if this is retaliatory inspired by NZ's but considering the timing of this event....... hmmmm.
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