(L) The Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novels 10/11) Spoiler Discussion

[AmyElizzabeth]

Originally Posted by dnab

Although this is a spoiler board, it would still be irresponsible for me to mix in my own subjective speculations of the unwritten plot (that's where half the story sits, and the readers' own joy to discover and theorize) with what is written. People who have not read the story yet are vulnerable to Inception. So I'll be careful, and you still keep a big grain of salt in front of your monitor.

How Time works is central to this and many other Haruhi stories. But by Vol.11 we still don't quite know how exactly Tanigawa's Time works. It's probably deliberate. The author doesn't want to give away the shop and, I believe, knowing how Time works might automatically reveal the true intentions of the Mikuru(Big) faction, which may or may not serve the best interest of other SOS-dan members (look for the guilty expressions of Mikuru(Big) in certain moments of anime).

At the climax of Surprise it was revealed that (besides the sibling part) (a) Future CAN change, and (b) Mikuru(Big) and Fujiwara are from different/alternate futures. This differs from the typical SciFi time-traveling paradigm of "I can't help do the right thing for the future, because there's could be only one future." Fujiwara's future is predicated on Haruhi losing her power. We know she won't, yet Fujiwara existed.

Nevermind the seeming paradox, setup like this actually creates better story opportunities down the road. Who's to say Mikuru's future will be the the one chosen, or for that matter Mikuru(Big) is the definite future of Mikuru(Small)? Ah, the possibilities.

Hasn't something about this been touched on earlier? Like how Mikuru and Tsuruya weren't supposed to know each other?

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by dnab

At the climax of Surprise it was revealed that (besides the sibling part) (a) Future CAN change, and (b) Mikuru(Big) and Fujiwara are from different/alternate futures. This differs from the typical SciFi time-traveling paradigm of "I can't help do the right thing for the future, because there's could be only one future." Fujiwara's future is predicated on Haruhi losing her power. We know she won't, yet Fujiwara existed.

Given that individual time travelers still appear to have no free will regarding the fulfillment of their own timelines (i.e. they must rely on somebody else for any actions that do not conform to their own history), it appears that any given time traveler is still "anchored" to their own timeline in a sense. Multiple versions can apparently coexist as long as the "present" is not one that precludes any of them (e.g. Fujiwara and Mikuru(big) can coexist up until the point of an event that would inevitably prevent one of them).

[virox]

Originally Posted by Wigwams

15498 mark already passed. so what was the bonus?

[Wigwams]

discount...?

[s07195]

It says "Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu 3rd season anime decided (confirmed)"

...
.....
........

No really?

[AbZeroNow]

Originally Posted by virox

I hope that was the result of someone jumping the gun a little rather than someone trolling Haruhiists.

Since this is the weekend, I'll give it a few more days for official word on what the announcement is, but a new season of Haruhi would not be an unreasonable guess at this point. Then again, I have low expectations and this could be Kadokawa announcing an anime of The Vanishing of Nagato Yuki-chan

But I have been hoping for a new season of the Haruhi for a while and that was my wish on the Haruhi Negai site, so I am going to wait and see and hope that by this time next year, we'll all be talking about how well they animated that car chase in Intrigues.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Read this guys.

[dnab]

Originally Posted by Wigwams

15498 mark already passed. so what was the bonus?

The wishes are being placed on the virtual bamboo leaves and off towards the Milky Ways. On this July 7 those wishes may be answered.

I didn't make this up. The Marketing did.

[Ypocaramel]

Man if I ever go back for a MBA in marketing, I'm doing a project on Haruhi.

[ultimatemegax]

There was some talk about the theories of time travel and how the two timelines play into the discussion earlier in the thread. I've gone ahead and translated the portion of the epilogue where Koizumi talks about his theories. I've gotten permission to post this excerpt, so this is it for the epilogue.

Remember that Koizumi has been known to falsify things as well as that these are only theories.

I apologize for the white background in the images. It was easier to make it white than to try and match and color from the board.

Spoiler:

But what about Asahina-san (big) and Fujiwara's relationship? Doesn't that go against time-traveling theories?

"We know it's true to deviate from chronological order. You and I both weren't able to recognize the overwriting of this time plane. It's similar to the ten-thousand summers we went through last year. Having memories of the two diverging routes would be considered paradoxical proof of this. "

And?

"What we experienced was due to Suzumiya-san's power creating an artificial time plane. How it changed the difference between Asahina-san and Fujiwara's future is something I cannot know. It could be that from the identical future one has become a slider. There also exists the possibility that one is lying. Even worse, both could be faking their stories and what they have told us. After all, how would we ever know?"

Our time-travelers don't talk about their true feelings. It's unlikely to be considered classified information.

"Certainly. This is only my perception but I feel that the future doesn't diverge into various forms due to natural phenomenon. Those alternative routes that simultaneously progressed and then combined at the end… Can we go through repeated divergences and reunions and still consciously remember each one? I think we can. Let me draw something."

Once again Koizumi had the pen in his hand and began to draw a scribbled line.

"Originally, we were only travel down the β route. There, Suzumiya-san expressly intervened and created the α route. Thanks to that intervention we are all here now. How the α myself and you are here and yet Watahashi Yasumi is not I don't know."



"I get the impression that Asahina-san and Fujiwara's future is similar to this. But if we assume there's another divergence and reunion, then it would look like this."



"While they do diverge and integrate, there is a possibility that the integration takes place in the future. Asahina-san may interact in the past to protect her future from falling away. She guides you so that her own space time can continue to flow."



Good grief. This has gone way over my head. If it seems he has a different opinion on the mater than Nagato…

Yes, that's the entire conversation. Something unrelated is asked by Kyon immediately after, so the end isn't as abrupt in the novel.

[Ithekro]

Trouble is...the truth in Haruhi tends to be a mix of what Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato say it is. And I tend to listen to Nagato for truth more than Koizumi, even though Koizumi may have the best presentation of what may be going on.

[ll DeV ll]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

There was some talk about the theories of time travel and how the two timelines play into the discussion earlier in the thread. I've gone ahead and translated the portion of the epilogue where Koizumi talks about his theories. I've gotten permission to post this excerpt, so this is it for the epilogue.

Remember that Koizumi has been known to falsify things as well as that these are only theories.

I apologize for the white background in the images. It was easier to make it white than to try and match and color from the board.

Spoiler:

But what about Asahina-san (big) and Fujiwara's relationship? Doesn't that go against time-traveling theories?

"We know it's true to deviate from chronological order. You and I both weren't able to recognize the overwriting of this time plane. It's similar to the ten-thousand summers we went through last year. Having memories of the two diverging routes would be considered paradoxical proof of this. "

And?

"What we experienced was due to Suzumiya-san's power creating an artificial time plane. How it changed the difference between Asahina-san and Fujiwara's future is something I cannot know. It could be that from the identical future one has become a slider. There also exists the possibility that one is lying. Even worse, both could be faking their stories and what they have told us. After all, how would we ever know?"

Our time-travelers don't talk about their true feelings. It's unlikely to be considered classified information.

"Certainly. This is only my perception but I feel that the future doesn't diverge into various forms due to natural phenomenon. Those alternative routes that simultaneously progressed and then combined at the end… Can we go through repeated divergences and reunions and still consciously remember each one? I think we can. Let me draw something."

Once again Koizumi had the pen in his hand and began to draw a scribbled line.

"Originally, we were only travel down the β route. There, Suzumiya-san expressly intervened and created the α route. Thanks to that intervention we are all here now. How the α myself and you are here and yet Watahashi Yasumi is not I don't know."



"I get the impression that Asahina-san and Fujiwara's future is similar to this. But if we assume there's another divergence and reunion, then it would look like this."



"While they do diverge and integrate, there is a possibility that the integration takes place in the future. Asahina-san may interact in the past to protect her future from falling away. She guides you so that her own space time can continue to flow."



Good grief. This has gone way over my head. If it seems he has a different opinion on the mater than Nagato…

Yes, that's the entire conversation. Something unrelated is asked by Kyon immediately after, so the end isn't as abrupt in the novel.

Sir, I can't understand the last image. Someone care to explain it further to me? Thanks

[ijuinkun]

Nagato has the best "bird's eye view" of things since she can see the information that is hidden from mere humans, but she is also the least skilled in explaining it to a human. Koizumi is the best at explaining things, but he has the least information at his disposal.

[quigonkenny]

On explaining to Kyon:

Itsuki thinks: "I'm not 100% sure what's going on here, so I'll tell Kyon what I can afford for him to know and fill in the rest with educated guesses, BS, and stuff I picked up from Doctor Who, making sure to cast the time travelers in a bad light whenever possible..."
Itsuki says: "This is what we know..." *grabs a pen and paper*

Mikuru thinks: "I need to help him out, so I'll tell Kyon-kun everything I know."
Mikuru says: "Kinsoku jikou desu..."

Nagato thinks: "There is a 97.41% possibility that he lacks the intelligence to understand my explanation."
Nagato says: "It is impossible to sufficiently explain using linguistic methods."

[RRW]

ahh it make sense.

Spoiler for theroy:

basically haruhi want to have her recruitment to be easy and fun, however because of interference with sasaki group. haruhi unable to enjoy it. she then created another time line where she can enjoy with rest of SOS (something like endless eight except not endless)

seem β route only replace certain section of α route. basically that event where fujiwara try to kill haruhi is on α route



next koizumi talk about future. he think fujiwara is mikuru bother but there is divergence which make mikuru is NOT his sister. fujiwara then try to make "reunion" so mikuru can be his sister again. because he is not a "god" this created....



.. more (complex) divergence.

how that

[Asa Lostar]

I wonder how far along translations for these books are -- if there is any progress for that matter at all..

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Asa Lostar

I wonder how far along translations for these books are -- if there is any progress for that matter at all..

Not far enough.

[AmyElizzabeth]

I think the epilogue and the final chapter are close to being finished. I think.

[Jonbob0008]

Gah, and I was planning to reread the whole series before reading the newest novels. It's going to take me a month to get through it all (I'm a slow reader).

[AmyElizzabeth]

So...anyone else read the final chapter yet?