2006-08-25, 06:38 | Link #61 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garden...
Age: 38
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Personaly I was considering buying the Blu-ray edition of AIR but since I still don't know Japanese and chances that getting an English sub are slim, I dropped the idea and planned on buying a DS lite >.>;
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2006-08-28, 03:09 | Link #62 |
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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It's not worth buying, the difference is marginal at best. Throwing more bitrates doesn't automatically make it better when the studio in question still doesn't know how to optimise the encoding process.
Plus I don't want to support Blu-ray when it is pretty clear that at this moment in time Blu-ray technology is still a lot of empty promises which has yet to delivered (50G movie disks, h264 encoding etc) and is just trying to make money off ignorant people. |
2006-08-28, 10:03 | Link #63 |
wingéd prettygirl
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@ houkoholic
On the one hand (assuming you've bought the LE/other DVDs) I am in complete agreement. However, for those of us who have yet to buy Air in any form, I suggest you look hard at the comparative pricing. True, this presupposes that such of us will be buying a Blu-ray player. But, if you think that the anime industry, both R2 & R1 (for the current regions) won't adopt HD, well... think again. Personally, I have every intention of getting a Blu-ray drive for my computer, simply because of the backup potential. No, I won't be buying one until media and drives are at a more suitable price point. But then, that's what I said for DVDs as well, and I picked up an external DVD burner for my laptop a year or two ago (16x RW-DL) and can now buy disks for what, fifty cents each Australian. Blu-ray will hit that point too, you can count on it. It'll just be a matter of time. Oh, and in reference again to the pricing - Air on Blu-ray (for slightly better video, box set) is costing ~¥30000. Air on DVD (without the pretty art box, nor the 'extra HD footage') was ¥5700 or so for the limited editions. Multiply that out, and you'll see the 'saving' inherent here. Admittedly, I can see that people with the DVDs would have effectively no reason to buy AIR on Blu-ray without a proper HD encode. But, for those of us who don't yet have it, and who fully intend to invest in Blu-ray in the not too distant future - well, from that perspective, it's not a bad idea. -Andiyar
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2006-08-28, 10:58 | Link #64 |
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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andiyar
I know anime is going HD just like all other shows, but that is not a reason to blindly support BR IMNSHO. Especially after seeing BR demos like AIR, GitS etc at the Tokyo Anime Festival in person I definitely do not see the cost/benefit in becoming an early adopter and supporter of BR. I also know perfectly well that the BR set is cheaper than the DVD collection, but I'm just not willing to support BR due to the reasons I've stated in my previous post. I do not want half-ass beta-like products to get my money and win market share (and in turn the format war) period. Currently all reviews points to HD-DVD being the superior (better and more efficient VC-1 codec vs mpeg2 on BR, and more space with dual-layer 30G vs 25G BR disk) AND being a cheaper format (cheaper player at almost half the price) to support, and I really wish anime companies would try to release their contents on the (currently) cheaper and (currently) better HD-DVD and that's the stance I'm going to take - by not buying any BR product until they can show to me that it is the superior format which they have been preaching and not the other way around. Until then, I'll stick with DVD and my up-converting DVD player. |
2006-08-29, 04:21 | Link #65 | |||
wingéd prettygirl
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Which is fair enough. However, in regards to your previous posting (about the lack of 50GB disks and the lack of H.264 support) • VC-1, which you're citing as better and more efficient, is in no way AVC. VC-1 should never have happened. It's only included in the HD spec of both formats (yes, it's in both) in order to have Microsoft on board, as they kicked up as stink... wow, nearly two years ago? about the lack of a WMV-based codec in the HD selection. And, since my opinion of WMV is, oh, very very low, I could care less about a lack of VC-1. Now, a lack of AVC support... that would make me rather irate. But neither Blu-ray nor HD-DVD lack AVC. • 50GB disks are definitely available. In movie format? I'm not sure as of yet, so I'll grant you that. But looking back at the launch of DVD - how long was it before dual-layer DVD's became available at all, let alone widespread? It definitely took a while. And Sony is shipping DL-Blu-ray media right now. If they can provide it to the home market, I'd be rather surprised if the studios/content producers can't get their hands on it. Quote:
I'm actually curious here, as a search and a memory think (~_^) can't turn up the answer: are any HD titles (HD-DVD specifically) authored in VC-1/AVC yet? As in available market titles, not upcomings or demoes? I honestly can't remember. I'm sure that Blu-ray isn't yet, I seem to recall that the disks released so far have been MPEG-2. Which is quite capable of doing HD video, it just requires a great deal more disk space. I assume that a proper encode set will be released in the near future, unless Sony really are trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The current player lineup and its cost, as you have touched on, aren't exactly reassuring. But then, as I stated earlier, I'm not specifically an early adopter. Yes, I'm buying Air on Blu-ray (unless I change my mind vis-a-vis the HD issue - in either sense, I'll pick up Kanon HD, which I'll bet will be Blu-ray, not HD-DVD), so in that sense I'll be buying a Blu-ray device of some kind. Which kind? As I mentioned before, guaranteed I'll buy a Blu-ray burner for my computer. And that's a point in Blu-ray's favour, every single large computer manufacturer is currently in the BDA. Will that help Blu-ray in the home entertainment space? Perhaps. It's more likely for those who watch their movies on their computers to want to be able to watch them on the TV too, I'd guess. Especially if Sony does manage to pull a nice trick with the PS3, which is a somewhat chancy issue. But there'll be, in the not-too-distant future, millions of PCs shipping with Blu-ray burners built in. And that comes down to how I see Blu-ray at the moment - I view it primarily as a data storage/backup medium, with the added bonus of being able to play HD content with it. In that regard, it's superior to HD-DVD. *shrug*. Your mileage may vary. But I'll be buying Air on Blu-ray in October, simply because I will be Blu-ray capable at some point in the near future, and as such, it makes sense for me to buy it in this format rather than pay the extra hundred thousand odd yen for the R2 DVDs. -Andiyar
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2006-08-29, 05:06 | Link #66 | |||||||
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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My beef is that Sony is using "but our format is *going* to be better" tactic to stomp out the other format while not actually delivering what it claims it can do *as of this current moment*, whereas something better is actually available right now. It would be a real shame when something better and cheaper loses out because of empty promises which they may or may not deliever in the future. I mean I don't see how greedy companies would have any incentive to produce better products when there is no competition in the market place. On the same token and hypothetically speaking, if Blu-Ray wins on hype alone, I don't see them moving onto dual-layers and new codecs anytime soon, just like how Sony came out and said mpeg2 is good enough. Quote:
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Currently I really wish that Kanon will get the HD-DVD treatment due to the reasons I've already stated, because I'm seeking for the best quality possible to watch these shows. Unless, again if BR delievers on their promised spec of dual-layer AVC, but that is just still a big "if" and "when". Quote:
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2006-08-29, 05:28 | Link #67 |
wingéd prettygirl
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@ houkoholic
I completely understand where you're coming from. Thanks for a very cohesive and well articulated response, 'tis always a pleasure to read them. And as I hope you've gathered, I'm not exactly happy with Sony's treatment of the Blu-ray medium either. I see potential there, and I wish they'd follow through with it. In terms of data storage and such (which is the kicker for me at this point), sure, they've got something going. In terms of HD video? Wait and see is the approach I too would nominally recommend. Depending on the personal situation, of course. Interesting to note as well has been Sony's reactions (and lack thereof) to the HD 'revolution', especially in regards to MPEG2vs VC-1/AVC (oh, and for the record, it's not so much a generic Microsoft-DRM-Evil-Empire hate for me, it's more the way they pushed it... and the bad experiences I've had with WMV in general in the past). Yep, sure, MPEG-2 can look damn good. But the kicker is, of course, that AVC/VC-1 can look just as good, if not better... with a hell of a lot less bitrate/storage. This might not be an issue to a lot of consumers, sadly, as quality is often a neglected thing - look at the way people treat HDTV, for instance, with many consumers apparently unable to see much of a difference, if at all, between 720p & 1080; not to mention the online music stores of the iTMS et al distributing horribly compressed music that makes me cringe, yet most people are perfectly fine with... I suppose, as with most things, the voting with your wallet as you are doing is the way to go. I'm still hoping for a Blu-ray/HD-DVD combo drive at some point that is also an upscaling DVD player. Otherwise? Well, go with what I need most. -Andiyar
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2006-08-29, 07:25 | Link #68 | |
tsubasa o sagashite
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The AIR BD set comes on 50GB dual layer BluRay discs, you know. |
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2006-08-29, 07:27 | Link #69 | |
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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AIR BD doesn't come out until November 1st, until I see physical proof that they're dual layer BD, it doesn't exists *as of now*. EDIT: After googling, the only place which I saw the mention of dual layer 50G is amazon jp. I do not see such mention of 50G disk on the AIR official site, Pony Canyon or any other news such as Impress Watch and online vender's site. Needless to say I'm very skeptical at this point |
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2006-08-29, 07:40 | Link #70 | ||
tsubasa o sagashite
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EDIT: The main AIR site does claim average 40Mbps for the main feature. Assuming each episode is 25 minutes, we get 14*25*60*40,000,000/8 = 105GB. The main features are contained on 3 discs, and hence, we get approximately 35 GB per disc, which would not fit on a single layer disc. |
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2006-08-29, 07:53 | Link #71 | |
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Like I said, I can't even find a mention of 50G disk on Pony Canyon's site itself, you can't find BD AIR in their November release line-up and heck punching in the disk code doesn't even bring up a product hit. Likewise all other reputable online venders does not mention this at all. I'm not convince that this one and only one source is proof that it is indeed 50G. Unless you're saying that Amazon is so special that they're the only one who have access to manufacturer text while nobody else has. Eitherway It's even more disappointing if they have 50G to work with and still come up not much better than the DVD as I've seen and other Japanese people can attest to, just further proves the format is not mature enough to support. |
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2006-08-29, 08:09 | Link #72 | ||
tsubasa o sagashite
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2006-08-29, 08:35 | Link #73 | ||
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060829/bd1.htm Matsushita's storage device specalist who is the technical spokesman respresenting the group specifically said that dual layer ROM disk should appear on the market at around Christmas, this goes in direct conflict with the AIR BD box release date of November 1st. More interesting is that Yokujin Densyokai, the group which sponsers and produces AIR AND Pony Canyon were part of the conference but does not correct such a statement. So either: 1) BD AIR will be delayed till Christmas, if the Christmas release claim is true. 2) AIR official site's claim is false and just PR gimmick, if the Christmas release claim is the truth. 3) Matsushita's own spokesman was wrong and made a balant mistake. Either way you take it, if you look at the overall picture with all these conflicting reports and claims, it certainty doesn't introuduce any consumer confidence. *EDIT* Looks like 1 is the case. BD AIR is officially delayed for one month because of "technical issues" http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...60829/pony.htm Quote:
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2006-08-29, 23:04 | Link #74 | |
tsubasa o sagashite
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2006-08-30, 03:09 | Link #75 | |
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Also let me guess, did you by any chance obtained the HD source off the internet, which obviously had gone through another compression process which would degrade the picture quality? Because off the air BS-i AIR was really quite a fair bit nicer than the DVD if you watch it as it was, SD source up-converted or not, it was done well. This was the reason that the Japanese fans were disappointed about the BD AIR because most agreed that it looked barely better than the DVD. Yes, BD AIR would be encoded in MPEG2, which is a mature codec, but what about the other parts of the equation I've mentioned which also factors into the overall maturity of the format - the players and the manufacturing process, both are being held up right now (as evident by the BR group having to hold a conference to instill consumer confidence that they're on target on delivering what they promised). No matter how you try to spin it, the fact of the matter is that BD has only been out for a few months as players only just began to hit the streets, plus the first of these players are riddled with hardware problems, it is an immature format and there is no arguments you can make against this fact. |
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2006-08-30, 14:33 | Link #76 | |||
tsubasa o sagashite
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Now, when you said that the BS-i version was a ton better than the DVD version, I had thought you meant that the BS-i version was from some mysterious HD source. Even a bad rip of that would've captured at least some (albeit noisy) detail from the HD that wasn't in the DVD release. However, if it was from a SD upconvert, the bad rip would then probably look poorer than the DVD, due to the fact that the bad rip of the upconvert would be travelling through 2 lossy channels (BS-i, ripper), while the DVD would be travelling through only 1 lossy channel (DVD encode). If the original source were HD, the DVD would've traveled through two lossy channels (downconvert, DVD encode). Furthermore, if the original source were only SD, then of course BS-i would have a much better time fitting the same material onto a bitstream more than twice as wide (assuming 20Mbit stream for BS-i). Quote:
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2006-08-30, 23:07 | Link #77 | ||
seiyuu maniac
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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You've pointed out why the BS-i broadcast looks better than DVD, and by the same argument, BD AIR should at the very least look just as good as the BS-i broadcast assuming that 1) they use the same source (which is very likely) and upconverted it correctly 2) BD has a higher bitrate and more bandwidth to work with. But the result is contrary according to reports, with BD AIR sitting somewhere inbetween the BS-i and DVD. Quote:
Also don't forget that there's also the *decoding* chain where image degration can occur. Not all signal processors are made equal. |
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2006-09-02, 03:38 | Link #78 | |||
tsubasa o sagashite
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My guess is that their upconvert created too much high frequency noise/errors, and thus totally killed the encoder. For example, those alias edges have *got* to be ugly to compress. Quote:
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2006-09-09, 21:33 | Link #79 | |
Zoroastrian
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: United States
Age: 37
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*Finished Pre-Ordering AIR Box 初回限定生産 (Blu-ray Disc)* Oh well... It is worth it. I know for sure I'll say it was a stupid move. But I'll love it for sure.
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Last edited by Shakugan no Shana; 2006-09-09 at 21:51. |
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2006-09-18, 09:27 | Link #80 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Maybe it's just me and I don't want to talk about technology I don't know a lot about as to be honest I don't know all the technical specs regarding bluray and hd dvd. I think both have a LOT of hype right now and i'm really waiting to see which technology takes off. Currently the war is sounding a lot like Betamax vs VHS. Yeah Betamax was superior in a few ways but it wasn't really cost effective. Also I remember during the VHS war we had a really nice Pioneer Elite Laserdisc player. I remember the quality of the video was very very clear but the discs were huge and not very cheap. I don't know what happened to the technology but it never became a standard at least in the US.
What i'm wondering is how either HD players could benefit myself, I really don't think it will if my primary viewing is Anime. I've seen the screenshots and realize it can't really represent how media would look on a regular hdtv. I myself am running I believe a 2nd generation Plasma display, it's a EDTV display 42" by Samsung with DVI therefore it's not truely HD. While I get HDTV channels from Dish and they are very colorful and vibrant (and my satellite box is set to 1080i) I believe this is actually scaled down to 480p so my tv is able to fit the resolution on the screen. It looks better than dvd quality in ways but even then it's a significant improvement. I've seen new generation plasma displays with HDTV content playing on them and it blows me away how clear it is even close up to the screen, with mine you walk up to it and you can see the pixels but from a good viewing distance it still looks as clear as any modern day plasma display. Now with anime, i've noticed anime will really look good even on a regular CRT as it seems like there is little worry about skintone and realism as a real human compared to a drawing. I've watched anime in 16:9 through dvd upscaled and it looks very clear and vibrant, i'm sure anime will look better on hd dvd and bluray but the question is will it really be a noticeable difference? I'm sure the new anime coming out and stuff like Air would look better. I'm wondering if either player is even worth an investment with my current tv or if i'm just better off buying a new tv with a player within 2007. One large marketing gimmick it seems especially at walmart are "HDTV ready tv's" which aren't truely HD, rather they downscale the signal. I bought my tv in early 2003 however so at the time I didn't really know about that though I bought mine at circuit city. |
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