Character Discussion - Kallen

[snowdevil_crow]

Hm, I don't know about that. One's geass is related to one's deepest wish, isn't it? I don't think Kallen's deepest wishes really relate to battle, personally... more to what it is she's fighting for. Uh. I don't know, freedom? Naww... um, hm... perhaps 'understanding' --- maybe she would be able to see others' intentions? Kind of like Mao's mindreading...?

[bladeofdarkness]

i'm not so sure
kallen wish was always to free japan (for her brother)
to change the fucked up world she was in
i dont think that her wish to understand lelouch better is actually the DEFINING point of her character
after all she DID end up fighting him in the end becouse he stood against the things that she believed in (justice, freedom, etc)
in a choice between lelouch and her own ideals she ended up choosing her ideals (albit, without knowing that lelouch didnt REALLY turn evil)

[Bonzo]

I don't know, the geass power born by the mentality and the desire inside people heart, or the unconscious will.

Lelouch unconscious will was "to desire the other people help me" because he always made everything alone then he could order what he want to the people.

Charles wanted "to change the past" then he could to manipulate people memories

Mao was afraid by other people but "he wanted to understand other people" then he could read people mind

C.C wanted "to be loved"

Bismark wanted "to be the strongest warrior" then he could to read the future, the more unfair battle advantage

Rolo wanted "a world where nobody could to hurt him" then he could to stop the people time perception

Kallen will was "to protect her dearest things, family, beloved people, etc..." then a superpower like suzaku can to be possible, but not too.

[snowdevil_crow]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i'm not so sure
kallen wish was always to free japan (for her brother)
to change the fucked up world she was in
i dont think that her wish to understand lelouch better is actually the DEFINING point of her character
after all she DID end up fighting him in the end becouse he stood against the things that she believed in (justice, freedom, etc)
in a choice between lelouch and her own ideals she ended up choosing her ideals (albit, without knowing that lelouch didnt REALLY turn evil)

True.

Perhaps, then, just understanding... in general. I mean, I remember her saying something about 'why did my brother die, then?' To have the ultimate understanding of justice. Or... to deal justice to others, perhaps...?

IDK.

[Betteroffer]

It would depend on just when Kallen got her Geass. In the beginning, before Zero, Kallen wanted to die while at least contributing something to freeing Japan. It is also implied that she has been harassed all her life at her previous schools for having a Britannian face, so she might have wanted to be accepted by others, though perhaps she could get the Geass Suzaku has in the fic 'Suzaku of Japan.' It made others share his sense of morals, to the point that the Britannian soldiers he uses it on promptly commited suicide.

Zero's appearance gave her hope, and eventually indirectly helped her see that her mother still loved her and was in her own way fighting for Kallen's sake. After learning Lelouch was Zero, she wanted to understand why he fought (if this isn't enough, then she also wanted to understand why Suzaku fought, though she did have pretty good insight afte their first time at Kamine). For these two points a Geass that allowed better combat ability and/or understanding those around her would make sense, and Mao's Geass would grant her both abilities.

At the end of the series she wants to live her own life with her mother, though I believe she would fight again if the peace was threatened.

I could see an arguement for Kallen getting Bismarck's Geass too. She wanted to be able to fight, and a part of her did still want to live, thus the future reading would help this. While serving Zero, she wanted to protect him and her mother, so she would again be better able to do so if she could see an attack coming before it was launched (even by a few seconds). Finally (this one's a bit cheesy) Zero gave her the power to actually want the future for the first time in her life since Naoto died and to a lesser extent, when Japan was conquered, so this Geass would make her able to 'see the future Zero envisioned.'

[bladeofdarkness]

question

how upset do you think kallen would be if she learned that suzaku thinks about his role of zero as a punishment
given what that mask, and the ideals that it stands for represent to kallen
how well do you think she would take it if she learned that it has become, in a way, suzaku's form of community service
that he does it, not as a calling, but as atonment

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by yvj

Her ending wouldn't make any sense if she didn't know.

Yeah, after all, what kind of person that didn't know about the plan would say "I think you're probably bragging about how the plan worked out in the end"(or something like this, hey, i watched the end ages ago). It doesn't make sense, hehe.

If Kallen had a geass? I think the geass is related to the personality, so... I can't have a clue. Cause Kallen is like a prism, so much stuff in her mind... It's hard.

Okay, for me, her geass would be a illusion one, that makes people daydreaming for a while.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

question

how upset do you think kallen would be if she learned that suzaku thinks about his role of zero as a punishment
given what that mask, and the ideals that it stands for represent to kallen
how well do you think she would take it if she learned that it has become, in a way, suzaku's form of community service
that he does it, not as a calling, but as atonment

Not upset at all. If he wants to think of it as punishment, that's fine. Serves him right for forcing Lelouch to take such drastic measures in the first place. If it weren't for Suzaku's stubborn idealism, which he abandons as soon as it becomes too inconvenient, Lelouch would never have needed to go as far as he did.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Not upset at all. If he wants to think of it as punishment, that's fine. Serves him right for forcing Lelouch to take such drastic measures in the first place. If it weren't for Suzaku's stubborn idealism, which he abandons as soon as it becomes too inconvenient, Lelouch would never have needed to go as far as he did.

Only if you're referring to Suzaku telling Lelouch to stick to the Zero Requiem after they found out Nunnally was alive. Because otherwise ZR was all Lelouch's idea.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by azul120

Only if you're referring to Suzaku telling Lelouch to stick to the Zero Requiem after they found out Nunnally was alive. Because otherwise ZR was all Lelouch's idea.

I'm not referring to ZR, I'm referring to everything up to it. One incident after another, it's Suzaku's inability to see the evil he serves and indeed does while serving Britannia that leads to the ending. He only finally gives up on his stupid ideals when he kills 35 million people due to his own negligence.

[Kid Ying]

Before it gets to another talk about Suzaku, it's better to go to his thread, right now, let's focus on Kallen, hehe.

I don't think she would be upset, Blade. And it's not like it's her business to begin with.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Before it gets to another talk about Suzaku, it's better to go to his thread, right now, let's focus on Kallen, hehe.

I don't think she would be upset, Blade. And it's not like it's her business to begin with.

Pretty much this. I don't see her being upset, or even asking about it. She has other things to deal with. Lelouch is ok with him being Zero, so she'll roll with it.

[bladeofdarkness]

i dont know
zero is more then just one man, its a SYMBOL
a concept of justice and freedom that kallen had always believed in from the start of the show
even when she first talked to lelouch in season 2, she made it clear that while she doesnt like HIM, she follows zero
i dont think she'd take it well if she learned that the guy who now fills that role
the role of "knight of justice and promoter of peace"
views his role as some sort of punishment rather then a calling
just think of any OTHER role of importence
how would you react if you learned that the "president" of your country (or what ever you have) thinks of his job as something he has to do as punishment for past sins he has commited

[Betteroffer]

I think first and foremost, she would at least accept it since, as morbosfist said, Lelouch trusted Suzaku to do it.

With the act of ZR, Kallen saw Lelouch's commitment to his ideals above all, and with him choosing Suzaku as his replacement, I belive she would trust in Lelouch's judgement even if she didn't trust in Suzaku, and we know that she did actually trust Suzaku, since she always believed that he was simply fighting for a better world in his own way.

Kallen may have said that she trusted Zero and not Lelouch in the beginning of R2, but her understanding of the two facets as parts of a whole seems to have been cemented around Turn 7 with her refering to Lelouch as Lelouch when alone, and it became a matter of her learning just what Lelouch fought for. She thought she knew him well enough until Turn 19 and 22 when he forced a false impression on her. With the end of ZR she sees that her trusting him as Zero was justified, as were her feelings for him as Lelouch. In the beginning Kallen admired the mask, in the end she loved the man under it.

On the issue of a leader being a leader for punishment, I would be more concerned if he is competent, and if his predecessor who elected him was a super-genius then I would feel safe in that regard. As for the role being a punishment, I would be relieved to know that it was the leader's belief that he had to correct a mistake he made by giving himself so completely to a higher cause with LITERALLY nothing to gain from it besides the satisfaction of a job well done (which was actually dependant on the entire world getting along). It's at least better than doing it for personal gain, glory, or an ego trip.

Kallen knows better than anyone except Lelouch and Suzaku themselves just how heavy the mask is, and she KNOWS Suzaku respects that burden, so to me, she has personal and practical reasons to respect and be content with the current Zero.

[bladeofdarkness]

i guess your right
but i still think that if suzaku came out and told her something like "this is my punishment" she'd still be annoyed about it
whether or not it IS his punishment, its also MORE then just that
being zero is a calling, or at least it SHOULD be

[Betteroffer]

I agree that a part of her would be irked by it, but I also think a part of her would be relieved he felt that way.

Anything like the mask of Zero is a burden by default. What hurt Kallen so much was Lelouch's reveal in Stage 25 that he created Zero for personal gain, and didn't seem to see it as a burden or a calling, but as a tool. What trully made her accept and forgive Lelouch for everything was his sacrifice at the end for ZR, seeming to claim that he saw it as a calling in the end.

The issue comes from whether Lelouch and Suzaku's primary motivation for ZR was the punishment angle, or the save the world angle. The fact that everyone says the staff's words imply the former killed almost the entire point of the ending for me, correct me if I've been misinformed on this.

[bladeofdarkness]

i read about it too somewhere
i think its total bullshit myself
if it was all about punishing themselves then they didnt have to drag the entire world into a world war and kill god only knows how many people
one gun and two bullets should have been enough (provided that lelouch shoots suzaku first)

i choose to view it as a "save the world from shnizel's plan" first

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

The issue comes from whether Lelouch and Suzaku's primary motivation for ZR was the punishment angle, or the save the world angle. The fact that everyone says the staff's words imply the former killed almost the entire point of the ending for me, correct me if I've been misinformed on this.

It's both. The quote in question is just focusing on the punishment.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i read about it too somewhere
i think its total bullshit myself
if it was all about punishing themselves then they didnt have to drag the entire world into a world war and kill god only knows how many people
one gun and two bullets should have been enough (provided that lelouch shoots suzaku first)

i choose to view it as a "save the world from shnizel's plan" first

Dear god I hope you are right.

My understanding, according to that idea, was that their egos wanted their atonement, but they also wouldn't let it be a simple suicide in a forest thing, since they wanted their sacrifices to have meaning, hence ZR.

I already had enough problems accepting ZR as a noble action given that he basically gave himself 2 months to out do Charles' 30-plus years of being a total psycho. While obliterating 70% of the planet's sakuradite, would do an excellent job of keeping him in the peoples' minds as a monster for decades to come, it would also screw over Japan's as well as the entire planet's economies, civilizations, and progress in general in a way I cannot even begin to imagine (if I remember I think it was you who first brought this idea to my attention).

If it trully was just for their ego-induced meaningful deaths, then that means that beyond all this, they basically decided to choose their egos over the world and force their loved ones to fight them while holding a willingness to kill them, all for their own sake. I could accept Lelouch as willing to kill Nunally for the sake of the world. I cannot accept his willingness to kill her for the sake of his ego.

EDIT: Thanks to Morbosfist as well.

[bladeofdarkness]

judging by kallen's epilouge, i tend to think its the second one
doing it for the sake of the world more then anything else